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Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table
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fitzfarm
Posts: 23613
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/28/2010
Member: #3285

8/10/2017  11:42 AM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

AUTOADVERT
fishmike
Posts: 47776
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
8/10/2017  12:58 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
fitzfarm
Posts: 23613
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/28/2010
Member: #3285

8/10/2017  1:43 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

fishmike
Posts: 47776
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
8/10/2017  1:57 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
martin
Posts: 46428
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
8/10/2017  2:03 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

I think you guys are saying the same thing but nuanced versions.

More athleticism is always better and will make you a better offensive and defensive player over another player all other things being equal. No getting around that.

You don't need extreme athleticism to be a great player, whether offensive or defensive. You obviously need some baseline stuff.

Oakley didn't have vertical athleticism like Dwight Howard, etc. but that doesn't mean he didn't make it up in strength, anticipation, IQ, and lateral footspeed. Some guys add quick hands. Oakley was never an elite blocker cause he didn't have that type of athleticism but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great defender. Same with Bird.

Amare had some elite athleticism but lacked lateral speed and IQ and maybe effort. Same with Melo.

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fitzfarm
Posts: 23613
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/28/2010
Member: #3285

8/10/2017  2:27 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

Welpee
Posts: 21664
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Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

8/10/2017  2:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  2:45 PM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Oak was a fine defender, but how many lightning quick point guards did he have to stay in front of? Also, why do you think Oak was traded for Camby?
BigRedDog
Posts: 21677
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
8/10/2017  3:09 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

Bird was 6'9". Maybe listed at 6'8" but probably 6'9"-solid

nixluva
Posts: 55471
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8/10/2017  3:13 PM
Back to Baker cuz really you can't judge players of different Eras in a vacuum. The game changes as do the rules. Baker takes great angles and fights over screens. He's an EXCELLENT TEAM defender! This is underappreciated by those who doubt him. His effort level off the bench will be a very good thing for this team.


martin
Posts: 46428
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8/10/2017  4:09 PM
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Oak was a fine defender, but how many lightning quick point guards did he have to stay in front of? Also, why do you think Oak was traded for Camby?

Your questions have nothing to do with the topic at hand

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fishmike
Posts: 47776
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
8/10/2017  4:31 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

then you dont understand what you are actually seeing. Not sure I know what else to say. There are no great defensive players who are poor athletes. None.

Ricky Davis? You are making no sense. This is like me saying "you need to be fast to play wide receiver" and your response is "thats not true because Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis and Speedy Gonzales were not good WRs."

Baker is not a GREAT defensive prospect. He's got potential. Ntilikina is GREAT defensive prospect. The reason is the ceiling. As will most things in sports there is a plateau based on what you can do. That is defined by your athleticism. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Saying the #1 thing to being a good defender is "a defensive mindset" is silly. What are you saying? The guys you listed were not commited to playing D. Thats why they stunk. However you WILL notice a lack of D is brought up for those players. Know why? Because they possess the key ingredient to being great defenders... elite athleticism. The knock on those guys is they HAD the most important thing to being a great defender and they squandered it.

I guess the only reason Jose Calderon wasnt a great defender was his mindset? It wasnt the slow feet, slow lateral quickness and short arms? I mean if only his mindset was there he coulda been Ben Wallace... see how silly that sounds?

Everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, but yes.. there are levels of athleticism and types. I am not talking about skills. Pure physical attributes...size, speed, power. It is ALWAYS those things that define a player's ceiling for defense. ALWAYS. Read every scouting report. If a guy stinks on D how often do you read "despite not playing much defense the physical talent is there."

This is so stupid. #1 key attribute on offense are basketball skills. #1 key attribute on defense are physical skills.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
fishmike
Posts: 47776
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Member: #298
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8/10/2017  4:49 PM
Agree... back to the topic.

Here's what we know:
Baker plays defense like its the most important thing on the court. Effectiveness varies but he's good. With better defenders around him he would be even more effective. 6'10 wingspan and weighs about 215 I would guess he's got a good body. Maybe not elite ceiling like Ntilikina but good.

Baker has not shown he can run an NBA offense... yet. Too small a sample size. We do know he can push the ball, take care of the ball and if nothing else feed the post/elbow then spot up.

Baker has yet to shoot the 3 anything like he shot it in college. I think he will shoot better but its not safe to assume. Its longer, less time and its the NBA. Stuff is harder. I do think 35% is doable

Coaching staff loves Ron Baker.

Ron Baker is young and fits into current rebuilding time line.


To me this is enough to laugh at the people who are tilting over his ridiculous $4mm contract

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
fitzfarm
Posts: 23613
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/28/2010
Member: #3285

8/10/2017  5:43 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

then you dont understand what you are actually seeing. Not sure I know what else to say. There are no great defensive players who are poor athletes. None.

Ricky Davis? You are making no sense. This is like me saying "you need to be fast to play wide receiver" and your response is "thats not true because Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis and Speedy Gonzales were not good WRs."

Baker is not a GREAT defensive prospect. He's got potential. Ntilikina is GREAT defensive prospect. The reason is the ceiling. As will most things in sports there is a plateau based on what you can do. That is defined by your athleticism. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Saying the #1 thing to being a good defender is "a defensive mindset" is silly. What are you saying? The guys you listed were not commited to playing D. Thats why they stunk. However you WILL notice a lack of D is brought up for those players. Know why? Because they possess the key ingredient to being great defenders... elite athleticism. The knock on those guys is they HAD the most important thing to being a great defender and they squandered it.

I guess the only reason Jose Calderon wasnt a great defender was his mindset? It wasnt the slow feet, slow lateral quickness and short arms? I mean if only his mindset was there he coulda been Ben Wallace... see how silly that sounds?

Everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, but yes.. there are levels of athleticism and types. I am not talking about skills. Pure physical attributes...size, speed, power. It is ALWAYS those things that define a player's ceiling for defense. ALWAYS. Read every scouting report. If a guy stinks on D how often do you read "despite not playing much defense the physical talent is there."

This is so stupid. #1 key attribute on offense are basketball skills. #1 key attribute on defense are physical skills.

Your answering your own stupidity. Of course everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, you don't make it to the top level without being one
But if your telling me that Bruce Bowen or tony Allen both considered top defensive players one past other present that they were great because of there physical athletic ability? Your wrong it's because they believe they are great defensive players.
Again you answered my question without even realizing, you said in the bold those guys had all the physical tools to be a great defensive players but squandered it because why ? Why? It wasn't because they didn't possess the physical ability or tools it's because they didn't have the defensive mindset.
And in some ways your right some players will never be good defensive players because they lack ability like Jose But why are there so many players with the physical tools that suck on defense? It sure isn't because they lack the physical tools.

Also to get back on topic name me 5 guards from last years draft with more defensive upside then Ron baker .

Welpee
Posts: 21664
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8/11/2017  8:14 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/11/2017  8:15 AM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Oak was a fine defender, but how many lightning quick point guards did he have to stay in front of? Also, why do you think Oak was traded for Camby?

Your questions have nothing to do with the topic at hand

I'm assuming you were trying to draw a comparison between Oakley being a good defender and not being very athletic with Baker. They play different positions so comparing the two is irrelevant, not to mention the game is being played much different in 2017 versus in Oak's day.

Also Oakley got traded mainly because the Knicks felt they needed to get more athletic in the front court to compete with the teams we needed to beat to get where we wanted to go.

So my questions have everything to do with the topic.

fishmike
Posts: 47776
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Member: #298
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8/11/2017  9:20 AM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

then you dont understand what you are actually seeing. Not sure I know what else to say. There are no great defensive players who are poor athletes. None.

Ricky Davis? You are making no sense. This is like me saying "you need to be fast to play wide receiver" and your response is "thats not true because Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis and Speedy Gonzales were not good WRs."

Baker is not a GREAT defensive prospect. He's got potential. Ntilikina is GREAT defensive prospect. The reason is the ceiling. As will most things in sports there is a plateau based on what you can do. That is defined by your athleticism. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Saying the #1 thing to being a good defender is "a defensive mindset" is silly. What are you saying? The guys you listed were not commited to playing D. Thats why they stunk. However you WILL notice a lack of D is brought up for those players. Know why? Because they possess the key ingredient to being great defenders... elite athleticism. The knock on those guys is they HAD the most important thing to being a great defender and they squandered it.

I guess the only reason Jose Calderon wasnt a great defender was his mindset? It wasnt the slow feet, slow lateral quickness and short arms? I mean if only his mindset was there he coulda been Ben Wallace... see how silly that sounds?

Everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, but yes.. there are levels of athleticism and types. I am not talking about skills. Pure physical attributes...size, speed, power. It is ALWAYS those things that define a player's ceiling for defense. ALWAYS. Read every scouting report. If a guy stinks on D how often do you read "despite not playing much defense the physical talent is there."

This is so stupid. #1 key attribute on offense are basketball skills. #1 key attribute on defense are physical skills.

Your answering your own stupidity. Of course everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, you don't make it to the top level without being one
But if your telling me that Bruce Bowen or tony Allen both considered top defensive players one past other present that they were great because of there physical athletic ability? Your wrong it's because they believe they are great defensive players.
Again you answered my question without even realizing, you said in the bold those guys had all the physical tools to be a great defensive players but squandered it because why ? Why? It wasn't because they didn't possess the physical ability or tools it's because they didn't have the defensive mindset.
And in some ways your right some players will never be good defensive players because they lack ability like Jose But why are there so many players with the physical tools that suck on defense? It sure isn't because they lack the physical tools.

Also to get back on topic name me 5 guards from last years draft with more defensive upside then Ron baker .

No... in every way I am right. Without the athleticism and physical tools you have nothing. Mindset is worthless without the physical tools. Bruce Bowen and Tony Allen are elite athletes. So is Leanard. Ben Wallace. Garnett, Camby, Tyson, Noah, Artest... we can do this all day. The least athletic guy would be Marc Gasol, but if you watch him for 30 seconds you see he possess great size, strength and has a quickness that you wouldnt expect from that size a body. He's no sprinter but quick? Big time... and he's one of the biggest players in the league.

So the question made by other posters is 100% valid and fair when talking about Baker's defensive potential. Its capped by his athleticism. If Ron Baker had the same physical tools as Thanasis he would have been a lottery pick, instead of an undrafted FA.

Baker has a 35 inch vertical leap. Thats not bad but not special by NBA standards. He shows good quickness and has very good size. He can be a good defensive player in this league. I think anyone can see the potential there, but its just one dimension and one where he's got a clear ceiling. Bottom line, Baker can earn minutes with his defense, but he's not going to keep them unless he hits shots.

Based on what he's shown in total I like that we locked him up. I dont know if he's good enough to be the first guard off the bench.. thats an important role in the league, but Baker could be a backup PG for many years and a nice guy to have on the roster. Just because a guy doesnt have star potential doesnt mean he's not worth keeping around.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
martin
Posts: 46428
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
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USA
8/11/2017  11:46 AM
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Oak was a fine defender, but how many lightning quick point guards did he have to stay in front of? Also, why do you think Oak was traded for Camby?

Your questions have nothing to do with the topic at hand

I'm assuming you were trying to draw a comparison between Oakley being a good defender and not being very athletic with Baker. They play different positions so comparing the two is irrelevant, not to mention the game is being played much different in 2017 versus in Oak's day.

Also Oakley got traded mainly because the Knicks felt they needed to get more athletic in the front court to compete with the teams we needed to beat to get where we wanted to go.

So my questions have everything to do with the topic.

Oakley was turning 35 and Camby was 24. You could also make the argument that they thought Oak was done as a player and wanted a young gun to step into his shoes. If it was 28 year old Oak in his prime versus same for Camby, then for sure it make sense to mention and compare both.

Has nothing to do with athleticism and defense in general.

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fitzfarm
Posts: 23613
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Joined: 10/28/2010
Member: #3285

8/11/2017  12:15 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

then you dont understand what you are actually seeing. Not sure I know what else to say. There are no great defensive players who are poor athletes. None.

Ricky Davis? You are making no sense. This is like me saying "you need to be fast to play wide receiver" and your response is "thats not true because Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis and Speedy Gonzales were not good WRs."

Baker is not a GREAT defensive prospect. He's got potential. Ntilikina is GREAT defensive prospect. The reason is the ceiling. As will most things in sports there is a plateau based on what you can do. That is defined by your athleticism. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Saying the #1 thing to being a good defender is "a defensive mindset" is silly. What are you saying? The guys you listed were not commited to playing D. Thats why they stunk. However you WILL notice a lack of D is brought up for those players. Know why? Because they possess the key ingredient to being great defenders... elite athleticism. The knock on those guys is they HAD the most important thing to being a great defender and they squandered it.

I guess the only reason Jose Calderon wasnt a great defender was his mindset? It wasnt the slow feet, slow lateral quickness and short arms? I mean if only his mindset was there he coulda been Ben Wallace... see how silly that sounds?

Everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, but yes.. there are levels of athleticism and types. I am not talking about skills. Pure physical attributes...size, speed, power. It is ALWAYS those things that define a player's ceiling for defense. ALWAYS. Read every scouting report. If a guy stinks on D how often do you read "despite not playing much defense the physical talent is there."

This is so stupid. #1 key attribute on offense are basketball skills. #1 key attribute on defense are physical skills.

Your answering your own stupidity. Of course everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, you don't make it to the top level without being one
But if your telling me that Bruce Bowen or tony Allen both considered top defensive players one past other present that they were great because of there physical athletic ability? Your wrong it's because they believe they are great defensive players.
Again you answered my question without even realizing, you said in the bold those guys had all the physical tools to be a great defensive players but squandered it because why ? Why? It wasn't because they didn't possess the physical ability or tools it's because they didn't have the defensive mindset.
And in some ways your right some players will never be good defensive players because they lack ability like Jose But why are there so many players with the physical tools that suck on defense? It sure isn't because they lack the physical tools.

Also to get back on topic name me 5 guards from last years draft with more defensive upside then Ron baker .

No... in every way I am right. Without the athleticism and physical tools you have nothing. Mindset is worthless without the physical tools. Bruce Bowen and Tony Allen are elite athletes. So is Leanard. Ben Wallace. Garnett, Camby, Tyson, Noah, Artest... we can do this all day. The least athletic guy would be Marc Gasol, but if you watch him for 30 seconds you see he possess great size, strength and has a quickness that you wouldnt expect from that size a body. He's no sprinter but quick? Big time... and he's one of the biggest players in the league.

So the question made by other posters is 100% valid and fair when talking about Baker's defensive potential. Its capped by his athleticism. If Ron Baker had the same physical tools as Thanasis he would have been a lottery pick, instead of an undrafted FA.

Baker has a 35 inch vertical leap. Thats not bad but not special by NBA standards. He shows good quickness and has very good size. He can be a good defensive player in this league. I think anyone can see the potential there, but its just one dimension and one where he's got a clear ceiling. Bottom line, Baker can earn minutes with his defense, but he's not going to keep them unless he hits shots.

Based on what he's shown in total I like that we locked him up. I dont know if he's good enough to be the first guard off the bench.. thats an important role in the league, but Baker could be a backup PG for many years and a nice guy to have on the roster. Just because a guy doesnt have star potential doesnt mean he's not worth keeping around.

No Bruce Bowen and tony Allen are not elite athletic players. There are plenty of players that had better physical tools who are aweful on defense. you still didn't answer my question how come players who have elite athletic physical tools in the NBA and there are plenty of them that suck at defense it's not because they don't possess the athletic physical talent it's all there. Then why are they awful defensive players? I'm making this really easy for you, answer the question?

Bonn1997
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8/11/2017  12:20 PM
You guys are talking about athleticism as if it's one thing. It's a collection of many things that are not necessarily related - strength, aerobic endurance, bodily reaction time, agility, flexibility, and more. You can't just ask whether a certain player was a top athlete. It's too vague. You have to say what athletic skills you're asking about if you want the question to be meaningful.
Welpee
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8/11/2017  12:29 PM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Oak was a fine defender, but how many lightning quick point guards did he have to stay in front of? Also, why do you think Oak was traded for Camby?

Your questions have nothing to do with the topic at hand

I'm assuming you were trying to draw a comparison between Oakley being a good defender and not being very athletic with Baker. They play different positions so comparing the two is irrelevant, not to mention the game is being played much different in 2017 versus in Oak's day.

Also Oakley got traded mainly because the Knicks felt they needed to get more athletic in the front court to compete with the teams we needed to beat to get where we wanted to go.

So my questions have everything to do with the topic.

Oakley was turning 35 and Camby was 24. You could also make the argument that they thought Oak was done as a player and wanted a young gun to step into his shoes. If it was 28 year old Oak in his prime versus same for Camby, then for sure it make sense to mention and compare both.

Has nothing to do with athleticism and defense in general.

Look you were the one who brought up Oakley in the first place. So perhaps you should explain your rationale for referencing him in a discussion about Baker.

Regarding thinking he was done, he played 79 games, 34+ mins per game and put up 9 ppg, 9+ rebs and made 2nd team all-defense (if you put a lot of stock in such awards) in his final season here. I'm sure at age 34 they knew he didn't have a ton of productive years left but I don't see how anyone could think he was done after his last season with the Knicks.

fishmike
Posts: 47776
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8/11/2017  12:37 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

First off being a great defensive player has nothing to do with athletic ability, some of the games best defenders were average at best in terms of there athletic ability.

To become a great defensive player it's all about your mindset and hard work. You basically out work your opponent saying I'm not letting this guy beat me no matter what. Dose athletic ability help if you have that mindset absolutely just look at LBJ.

But a lot of the greatest defensive players this league has ever seen were average at best in terms of athletic ability. Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.

All of those guys were average at best in terms of athletic ability and a lot of those guys won dpoy. Ron has just as much athletic ability as most of those guys mentioned above. With that said can Ron become a great defensive player in this league. Yes absolutely!

I just dont get this. Nothing limits defense more than athletics. There are many aspects of defense (like offense) that dont require superior athletics to master. Ball awareness, court awareness and positioning all come to mind. One can learn to be in the right spots. One can learn and study tendencies. One can learn and study play books. One can master various techniques and footwork. End of the day it comes to down to quickness and physical tools and those are certainly athletics.

The reason the "great scores" like Harden, Wall, Kryrie, Westbrook, (just to name a few) can score on anyone is there is nobody on the planet fast enough to keep up with them.

If you watched the late 90s Allan Houston was often maligned for his defense. It was never lacking effort, and he did a very good job pushing penetrators to the baseline where help like Camby or Ewing would be waiting. HELP being the key. Sprewell however didnt have to rely on help as much because.... he was quicker and could stay in front of his man. Houston could not. He lacked the physical tools to do that.

you can overcome size, sometimes even strength, but you can not be slow and be a good defender.

Bruce Bowen,Charles Oakley,Noah,tony Allen,Dennis rodman,Ron artest,Alvin Robertson,Sidney moncrief,Larry Bird,t prince.
These guys are all pretty athletic.

Your ceiling on defense is defined by your physical tools. Strong is good. Long is good. Slow feet and your gonna have problems. Athletcism is the most important atrribute for defense, hands down. On offense? You can set picks, shoot jumpers, box out, make great passes.. all things that can be achieved if you lack athleticism. All the technique and effort in the world isnt going to help Jose Calderon stay in front of Kyrie Irving. Because its impossible. Because he lacks the athleticism to stay with him.

This is what makes Ntilikina so tantalizing. He's got the tools to be special, and those tools are pretty unique.

To call oak,rodman,Bowen,bird,tony Allen more athletically gifted then baker is laughable baker dose not have slow feet.

no I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on defense most of the players that have won dpoy are not what you call athletic freaks just look at dray green most of his game is high iq being in the right spot at the right time and getting in his opponents head ... athletic ability has nothing to do with his game smarts has everything to do with how he plays . The same can be said about baker .

The bold... are you talking to me? I never said that. Only that athleticism was important to defense and all those players you mentioned were excellent athletes.

Draymond Green was drafted for his defense. He's a fantastic athlete as well. No clue what your point is there.

I also never said or claimed Baker is a bad athlete. He's not. He's not elite by NBA standards, but Ron Baker does NOT have slow feet. He's not the quickest but he's got good enough lateral movement to be a good defender in the NBA. He's got good length with his 6'10ish wingspan and he's got a strong body that isnt going to get pushed around.

Baker is a good defensive prospect and I endorse the signing. You point about athleticism not playing a role in defense is silly, its the biggest factor.

Dennis rodman had a rebounding/defensive mindset other then that he couldn't shoot he could barely dribble a basketball.

Oakley was a bull but was slow and was not someone who jumped through the roof.

Larry bird could barley dunk the ball and he was 6'7 he used his b ball iq to out smart the more athletically gifted opponents on both ends of the floor. Nothing about birds game was athletic.

Tony Allen is a one dimensional defensive player who overworks his opponents nothing about his game is jumping through the roof.

Bruce Bowen was a dirty player who would get in his opponents head stepping on feet pushing players. He could barely dribble or get to the hoop his offensive game was sitting in the corner and occasionally hitting a open three.

Dray is gifted athletically but his game requires very little athletically he's just a smart high basketball iq player. He's always in the right spot at the right time and plays qb for the warriors on both ends .

Again to be athletically gifted definitely helps IF you also have the defensive mindset. But if athletic ability was the main ingredient to a great defensive player . Kenny sky walker would have been the raining defensive player of the year.

Ricky Davis would have been a all defensive player
Jr smith should be a lock down defensive player
Melo would be a all defensive player
Jr rider would have had a long NBA career

All those guys were super athletic players who suck on defense the main ingredient to a great defensive player is mindset not athletic ability

It's hard to argue all those guys are not more athletically gifted then the Bruce Bowens of the NBA.

I agree baker is a great defensive prospect.

I disagree that athletic ability is the main ingredient or even plays a role in what makes a great defensive player .

then you dont understand what you are actually seeing. Not sure I know what else to say. There are no great defensive players who are poor athletes. None.

Ricky Davis? You are making no sense. This is like me saying "you need to be fast to play wide receiver" and your response is "thats not true because Usain Bolt, Carl Lewis and Speedy Gonzales were not good WRs."

Baker is not a GREAT defensive prospect. He's got potential. Ntilikina is GREAT defensive prospect. The reason is the ceiling. As will most things in sports there is a plateau based on what you can do. That is defined by your athleticism. To suggest otherwise is silly.

Saying the #1 thing to being a good defender is "a defensive mindset" is silly. What are you saying? The guys you listed were not commited to playing D. Thats why they stunk. However you WILL notice a lack of D is brought up for those players. Know why? Because they possess the key ingredient to being great defenders... elite athleticism. The knock on those guys is they HAD the most important thing to being a great defender and they squandered it.

I guess the only reason Jose Calderon wasnt a great defender was his mindset? It wasnt the slow feet, slow lateral quickness and short arms? I mean if only his mindset was there he coulda been Ben Wallace... see how silly that sounds?

Everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, but yes.. there are levels of athleticism and types. I am not talking about skills. Pure physical attributes...size, speed, power. It is ALWAYS those things that define a player's ceiling for defense. ALWAYS. Read every scouting report. If a guy stinks on D how often do you read "despite not playing much defense the physical talent is there."

This is so stupid. #1 key attribute on offense are basketball skills. #1 key attribute on defense are physical skills.

Your answering your own stupidity. Of course everyone in the NBA is a good athlete, you don't make it to the top level without being one
But if your telling me that Bruce Bowen or tony Allen both considered top defensive players one past other present that they were great because of there physical athletic ability? Your wrong it's because they believe they are great defensive players.
Again you answered my question without even realizing, you said in the bold those guys had all the physical tools to be a great defensive players but squandered it because why ? Why? It wasn't because they didn't possess the physical ability or tools it's because they didn't have the defensive mindset.
And in some ways your right some players will never be good defensive players because they lack ability like Jose But why are there so many players with the physical tools that suck on defense? It sure isn't because they lack the physical tools.

Also to get back on topic name me 5 guards from last years draft with more defensive upside then Ron baker .

No... in every way I am right. Without the athleticism and physical tools you have nothing. Mindset is worthless without the physical tools. Bruce Bowen and Tony Allen are elite athletes. So is Leanard. Ben Wallace. Garnett, Camby, Tyson, Noah, Artest... we can do this all day. The least athletic guy would be Marc Gasol, but if you watch him for 30 seconds you see he possess great size, strength and has a quickness that you wouldnt expect from that size a body. He's no sprinter but quick? Big time... and he's one of the biggest players in the league.

So the question made by other posters is 100% valid and fair when talking about Baker's defensive potential. Its capped by his athleticism. If Ron Baker had the same physical tools as Thanasis he would have been a lottery pick, instead of an undrafted FA.

Baker has a 35 inch vertical leap. Thats not bad but not special by NBA standards. He shows good quickness and has very good size. He can be a good defensive player in this league. I think anyone can see the potential there, but its just one dimension and one where he's got a clear ceiling. Bottom line, Baker can earn minutes with his defense, but he's not going to keep them unless he hits shots.

Based on what he's shown in total I like that we locked him up. I dont know if he's good enough to be the first guard off the bench.. thats an important role in the league, but Baker could be a backup PG for many years and a nice guy to have on the roster. Just because a guy doesnt have star potential doesnt mean he's not worth keeping around.

No Bruce Bowen and tony Allen are not elite athletic players. There are plenty of players that had better physical tools who are aweful on defense. you still didn't answer my question how come players who have elite athletic physical tools in the NBA and there are plenty of them that suck at defense it's not because they don't possess the athletic physical talent it's all there. Then why are they awful defensive players? I'm making this really easy for you, answer the question?

it must be because they lacked the defensive mindset. Its the easily the most important thing to playing defense in the NBA. You may not be able to run, jump, or be tall enough to contest shots. You may lack the lateral quickness to stay in front of your man... but if you have mindset... man, sky is the limit.
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Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table

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