Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

BigRedDog wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

martin wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .

Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

How is this an argument that holds any water? Generally speaking, Harden and Westbrook can light up ANY defender on any given day. You just compared Baker's defense against 2 MVP candidates

Agreed Martin, its like Westbrook and harden didn't lit up 98% of there defenders. Ron is probably our best defender, also probably our highest bball IQ player. Ron is in the right place at the right time on both ends of the floor more then anyone else on the team. Ron makes his teammates better on both ends of the floor . Ron is one of the few players on the team that makes the game easy for the rest of his teammates .

Haters gonna hate Martin, we just know a great defender/team player when we see one... regardless of all the hate there is no denying he is a top defender in this league . If the haters bring up Westbrook,harden they obviously don't have much ground to stand on. It's not like Kawai or tony Allen don't get lit up by those players either...

So haters Ahhh try again.

So, because I think Baker is the end of the bench player now I'm a hater? Grow up. Top defender in the league? What r u smoking? So he should make one of the all defensive teams this yr? Want to place a bet on this? Top defenders in the league actually shut top offensive players down at least sometimes. Need more proof than some homer stating this.

He shut John Wall down consistently all year whenever he guarded him.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

"Alternative Facts".....

Zebo13 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

martin wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .

Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

How is this an argument that holds any water? Generally speaking, Harden and Westbrook can light up ANY defender on any given day. You just compared Baker's defense against 2 MVP candidates

Agreed Martin, its like Westbrook and harden didn't lit up 98% of there defenders. Ron is probably our best defender, also probably our highest bball IQ player. Ron is in the right place at the right time on both ends of the floor more then anyone else on the team. Ron makes his teammates better on both ends of the floor . Ron is one of the few players on the team that makes the game easy for the rest of his teammates .

Haters gonna hate Martin, we just know a great defender/team player when we see one... regardless of all the hate there is no denying he is a top defender in this league . If the haters bring up Westbrook,harden they obviously don't have much ground to stand on. It's not like Kawai or tony Allen don't get lit up by those players either...

So haters Ahhh try again.

So, because I think Baker is the end of the bench player now I'm a hater? Grow up. Top defender in the league? What r u smoking? So he should make one of the all defensive teams this yr? Want to place a bet on this? Top defenders in the league actually shut top offensive players down at least sometimes. Need more proof than some homer stating this.

He shut John Wall down consistently all year whenever he guarded him.

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

GustavBahler wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Doesnt matter what tools Bird used to make stops, the results made him a great defender. How he did it was secondary.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Doesnt matter what tools Bird used to make stops, the results made him a great defender. How he did it was secondary.

I wouldn't say great, but he was good. He used his size and an almost prescient understanding of positioning to make up for his lack of athleticism. The Celts also played great team defensive and helped to mask his shortcomings. That said, I look at times someone like Bruce Bowen was passed up for defensive player of the year and the number of times that someone like Alvin Robertson was hyped up, I can say that year end awards aren't always an accurate indicator of defensive prowess.

Bird had a knack for making a stop when the Celtics really needed one. That's why I rate him as more than just good. Bowen was too dirty for me to respect as a defender. Had no problem doing things knowing full well they could end a fellow basketball player's career. A brother in this sport.

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

I guess we are seeing two different things. Defense is all about the willingness and desire to stop the other man. Baker has shown that he has that. You also don't need to be that athletic to be a very good defender. Rodman, Artest and Oakley were very good defenders but you would not call them more than average athletically. They are quick twitch with quick feet and great hips. Their Bball IQ is high and their anticipation is excellent. Baker has shown to have these traits. At least to me.