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Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table
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martin
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8/9/2017  10:06 PM
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

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Zebo13
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8/9/2017  10:31 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

How is this an argument that holds any water? Generally speaking, Harden and Westbrook can light up ANY defender on any given day. You just compared Baker's defense against 2 MVP candidates

Agreed Martin, its like Westbrook and harden didn't lit up 98% of there defenders. Ron is probably our best defender, also probably our highest bball IQ player. Ron is in the right place at the right time on both ends of the floor more then anyone else on the team. Ron makes his teammates better on both ends of the floor . Ron is one of the few players on the team that makes the game easy for the rest of his teammates .

Haters gonna hate Martin, we just know a great defender/team player when we see one... regardless of all the hate there is no denying he is a top defender in this league . If the haters bring up Westbrook,harden they obviously don't have much ground to stand on. It's not like Kawai or tony Allen don't get lit up by those players either...

So haters Ahhh try again.

So, because I think Baker is the end of the bench player now I'm a hater? Grow up. Top defender in the league? What r u smoking? So he should make one of the all defensive teams this yr? Want to place a bet on this? Top defenders in the league actually shut top offensive players down at least sometimes. Need more proof than some homer stating this.

He shut John Wall down consistently all year whenever he guarded him.

BRIGGS
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8/9/2017  10:52 PM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

martin
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8/10/2017  12:11 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

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BRIGGS
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8/10/2017  12:42 AM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

martin
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8/10/2017  1:02 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

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BRIGGS
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8/10/2017  2:42 AM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

Martin Iwas always a Knicks fan but I loved Larry Bird. Bird early in his career was an opportunistic defender getting into passing lanes steals even some good low post work. As time went on he became a fair defender at best. To call Bird a great defender is a sham to great NBA defenders. I'm not reading out of a book here -- this is my eyes talking-- ask any Celtic fan about the totality of Larry Birds career defense . I'm not ina minority-- it's well known with Celtic fans

Nalod
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8/10/2017  7:37 AM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.
I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.
Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him
Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.
No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense
Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

"Alternative Facts".....

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Welpee
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8/10/2017  9:55 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  10:07 AM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Your minority opinion? How many players just voted to an all-defensive or first/second team for NBA for 3 consecutive years but are otherwise not really qualified?

Having great hand eye coordination and having the IQ to play passing lanes and playing hard is exactly what defense is about.

This isn't like fan all-star voting.

Again, Larry Bird made all defensive team 3 years in a row. To say he wasn't a good defender is holding your head in the grown and sprouting off nonsense

Bird was NOT a great defender. At the time Bird (similar to Bill Walton) was hyped up big time by the media to be the greatest thing since sliced bread (I'm not going to get into the reason why, that's an another discussion for another day). Look at the all-defensive teams those three years and its like a game of "what doesn't belong."

Bird was a smart defender who picked his spots to make a key defensive play, but night in and night out Bird wasn't shutting anybody down on defense. He was a great player in just about every other aspect of the game, defense wasn't one of them.

Welpee
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8/10/2017  9:57 AM
Zebo13 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
martin wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

How is this an argument that holds any water? Generally speaking, Harden and Westbrook can light up ANY defender on any given day. You just compared Baker's defense against 2 MVP candidates

Agreed Martin, its like Westbrook and harden didn't lit up 98% of there defenders. Ron is probably our best defender, also probably our highest bball IQ player. Ron is in the right place at the right time on both ends of the floor more then anyone else on the team. Ron makes his teammates better on both ends of the floor . Ron is one of the few players on the team that makes the game easy for the rest of his teammates .

Haters gonna hate Martin, we just know a great defender/team player when we see one... regardless of all the hate there is no denying he is a top defender in this league . If the haters bring up Westbrook,harden they obviously don't have much ground to stand on. It's not like Kawai or tony Allen don't get lit up by those players either...

So haters Ahhh try again.

So, because I think Baker is the end of the bench player now I'm a hater? Grow up. Top defender in the league? What r u smoking? So he should make one of the all defensive teams this yr? Want to place a bet on this? Top defenders in the league actually shut top offensive players down at least sometimes. Need more proof than some homer stating this.

He shut John Wall down consistently all year whenever he guarded him.

Yeah, those were important two or three minutes.
GustavBahler
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8/10/2017  9:59 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Doesnt matter what tools Bird used to make stops, the results made him a great defender. How he did it was secondary.

Welpee
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8/10/2017  10:00 AM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.
BigRedDog
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8/10/2017  10:12 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

I really cant get my head around the bold. Its about as low level a deal you can get in the NBA, and this was for a guy who came in, worked hard and the coaching staff clearly likes very much. There is really nothing ridiculous or headscratching about it. There is no prospect we like being left off the roster because of this. There is not FA left on the table because Baker's deal took the money. I mean whats ridiculous? Guy got a short term 1 or 2 year deal to stick around. The money, player, roster fit... all make sense. Its just such a low level deal for a player that is clearly liked by the coaching staff... yet people cant get their heads around this. Me either I guess!

Fish I usually agree with you most of the time and disagree with knicks1428 99.999% of the time but I just think based on what Baker did last yr we overpaid him on the contract. Sure its not huge money but Bakers contract used up the remaining money we had. Who knows what was available that we were shut out of either this yr or next. What even was worse the fact that we gave him a player option. That much of a raise , we should have made it either a 3 yr contract with team options after the 1st and 2nd yrs. Its a lose lose situation. If Baker has a bad yr, he stays and is over paid again. If he has a breakout season he opts out and then we have to pay up again to keep him. Great job by his agent and bad job by Mills. Hopefully Mills doesn't keep making these financial blunders. An undrafted Fa who didn't really have a great season should be paid about 2.1 million 3 yr contact extension and Baker should have been thrilled to sign this.

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8/10/2017  10:14 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Doesnt matter what tools Bird used to make stops, the results made him a great defender. How he did it was secondary.


I wouldn't say great, but he was good. He used his size and an almost prescient understanding of positioning to make up for his lack of athleticism. The Celts also played great team defensive and helped to mask his shortcomings. That said, I look at times someone like Bruce Bowen was passed up for defensive player of the year and the number of times that someone like Alvin Robertson was hyped up, I can say that year end awards aren't always an accurate indicator of defensive prowess.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
Posts: 45927
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
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8/10/2017  10:26 AM
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

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GustavBahler
Posts: 32033
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

8/10/2017  11:01 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Larry bird was a great rebounder but not a great defender.
Some of this stuff with Baker is to soon but he has a good feel for the defensive side of the court and he's very powerfully built At 6-4 225. He's a good athlete not great but the size strength helps him

Flat wrong. You forgot about Bird, All-Defensive selection 3 times. 1982-4.

No way. Larry bird had great hand eye coordination. Was great in passing lanes early in his career and played hard. Was he a great defender- no and as he aged he was fair at best. There is nothing Larry bird was bad at but his offense was well ahead of his defense

Doesnt matter what tools Bird used to make stops, the results made him a great defender. How he did it was secondary.


I wouldn't say great, but he was good. He used his size and an almost prescient understanding of positioning to make up for his lack of athleticism. The Celts also played great team defensive and helped to mask his shortcomings. That said, I look at times someone like Bruce Bowen was passed up for defensive player of the year and the number of times that someone like Alvin Robertson was hyped up, I can say that year end awards aren't always an accurate indicator of defensive prowess.

Bird had a knack for making a stop when the Celtics really needed one. That's why I rate him as more than just good. Bowen was too dirty for me to respect as a defender. Had no problem doing things knowing full well they could end a fellow basketball player's career. A brother in this sport.

Welpee
Posts: 21335
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8/10/2017  11:02 AM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.
martin
Posts: 45927
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
8/10/2017  11:04 AM
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

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BigRedDog
Posts: 21553
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
8/10/2017  11:22 AM
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

What did you think of Oakley's defense?

Horace Grant killed him every playoff game

NYKBocker
Posts: 35113
Alba Posts: 471
Joined: 1/14/2003
Member: #377
USA
8/10/2017  11:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  11:31 AM
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
martin wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:Gary Payton didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season.

Bruce Bowen didn't peak as a defender until his 5th season at age 29 and didn't have his best season until age 31.

That is not to say Baker will ever be Payton or Bowen. It's just to point out the players get better defensively with experience too. That is not exclusive to offense.

It only means that he's a rookie, and if nothing else shows a willingness to play defense. If his skills develop the upside is obvious

Payton didn't suddenly become athletic in his 5th year. I will never question Bakers willingness to play D. I say lets wait and see on Baker and not proclaim him as a great defender until he proves it.

I don't know that I'd call him unathletic. Absolutely I agree he shouldn't be called great. It just seems some people were going too far the other way.

It's just hard to imagine how someone actually typed out 'got lit up by Westbrook' seriously.

My main point is Baker's limited athleticism is what (in my opinion) prevents him now and probably in the future from being a top defender. Payton didn't have such problems.

Always thought IQ, anticipation, hand speed, motor, and lateral movement comprise most of what defense is about. Athleticism no doubt helps.

Bird had limited athleticism but was a top defender in the league.

Nobody said Baker couldn't be a solid defender, but folks are talking like he's a future lock down defender just because he was better than Rose or Jennings.

Maybe that's just the interpretation of how we are readying posts. For me, Baker has very good potential in that area. Rose and Jennings were horrible and for me have nothing to do with Baker.

I think his defensive potential is limited due to his average (at best) athleticism.

I guess we are seeing two different things. Defense is all about the willingness and desire to stop the other man. Baker has shown that he has that. You also don't need to be that athletic to be a very good defender. Rodman, Artest and Oakley were very good defenders but you would not call them more than average athletically. They are quick twitch with quick feet and great hips. Their Bball IQ is high and their anticipation is excellent. Baker has shown to have these traits. At least to me.

Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table

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