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Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table
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knicks1248
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8/8/2017  12:08 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:he better have game like the contract indicates

What would that be? He's paid much less than an average player.

His defensive energy and diversity out performs the average player.

Weird to me that when judging player most look at PPG or FG% first and totally ignore defense and defensive potential of a player. Clearly Baker did not shoot/score well but he played some stout D.

Dude the game is about the 3 ball, he does play respectable defense, and he hustles(like most d leaguers trying to make the cut)but the game is all about the offense, an area he's really bad in.

You say the weirdest things some times, focusing in on pointless points. Baker a rookie and we judge him as such.

Would you rather have a PG who manages team and thinks pass first while playing decent D or a PG who only puts up flashy points and doesn't play D?

what happen to "WE NEED TWO WAY PLAYERS" now were making exceptions

and why would you make my comments into a negative. I'm simple stating his ass needs to get better offensively, you know it, I know it, he knows it, and every knick fan on the plant it knows it.

He is getting top 5 "over all pick money" in fact, him and kp will be making damn near the exact same amount next season


KP is on a rookie contract. So his salary is ridiculously low compared to what he brings. We don't have an unlimited number of 1st round picks. We can't just sign anyone we want to that kind of contract. You know all this already.
We don't know whether Baker is a 1 way (strong defense) or 2 way player. The only thing badly missing from his offense last season was 3 point shooting. And if he had made about 6 more 3s for the entire season, his 3 point shooting percentage would look OK too. Clearly the Knicks realized you can't judge a player from a grand total of 200 shots, especially the first 200 of his career. Put it this way, that would be about 2 weeks of shots for Carmelo. I'm sure he's had 2 week stretches where he shot like 35% and where he shot like 55%.

how can you say that, and then agree with the contract.

ES
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Bonn1997
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8/8/2017  12:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/8/2017  12:21 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:he better have game like the contract indicates

What would that be? He's paid much less than an average player.

His defensive energy and diversity out performs the average player.

Weird to me that when judging player most look at PPG or FG% first and totally ignore defense and defensive potential of a player. Clearly Baker did not shoot/score well but he played some stout D.

Dude the game is about the 3 ball, he does play respectable defense, and he hustles(like most d leaguers trying to make the cut)but the game is all about the offense, an area he's really bad in.

You say the weirdest things some times, focusing in on pointless points. Baker a rookie and we judge him as such.

Would you rather have a PG who manages team and thinks pass first while playing decent D or a PG who only puts up flashy points and doesn't play D?

what happen to "WE NEED TWO WAY PLAYERS" now were making exceptions

and why would you make my comments into a negative. I'm simple stating his ass needs to get better offensively, you know it, I know it, he knows it, and every knick fan on the plant it knows it.

He is getting top 5 "over all pick money" in fact, him and kp will be making damn near the exact same amount next season


KP is on a rookie contract. So his salary is ridiculously low compared to what he brings. We don't have an unlimited number of 1st round picks. We can't just sign anyone we want to that kind of contract. You know all this already.
We don't know whether Baker is a 1 way (strong defense) or 2 way player. The only thing badly missing from his offense last season was 3 point shooting. And if he had made about 6 more 3s for the entire season, his 3 point shooting percentage would look OK too. Clearly the Knicks realized you can't judge a player from a grand total of 200 shots, especially the first 200 of his career. Put it this way, that would be about 2 weeks of shots for Carmelo. I'm sure he's had 2 week stretches where he shot like 35% and where he shot like 55%.

how can you say that, and then agree with the contract.


First, I believe I gave the contract a C. Second, there's more to the game than just FG%. He showed enough potential for me to say it was an adequate gamble. Usually with a contract that small you're either getting a minor role player or an unknown player with limited data.
nixluva
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8/8/2017  12:41 PM
It's possible Baker and his Agent asked for a short contract as a bet on himself. If he outperforms he can try to get more money. If not he has at least some guaranteed money. Gotta remember the players have a say in the kind of contract as well.
knicks1248
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8/8/2017  1:50 PM
nixluva wrote:It's possible Baker and his Agent asked for a short contract as a bet on himself. If he outperforms he can try to get more money. If not he has at least some guaranteed money. Gotta remember the players have a say in the kind of contract as well.

I give all the credit to his agent, that's a beautiful contract for him

ES
Nalod
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8/8/2017  3:20 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:he better have game like the contract indicates

What would that be? He's paid much less than an average player.

His defensive energy and diversity out performs the average player.

Weird to me that when judging player most look at PPG or FG% first and totally ignore defense and defensive potential of a player. Clearly Baker did not shoot/score well but he played some stout D.

Dude the game is about the 3 ball, he does play respectable defense, and he hustles(like most d leaguers trying to make the cut)but the game is all about the offense, an area he's really bad in.

wrong as usual. Go look at where the top teams in the league (starting with the Warriors) rank defensively and come back to me.

so your telling me knowing what you know about baker now, you would have drafted him 5th overall last yr, you would have taken him over jamal murry, kriss dunn, denzel valentine, buddy hield, who all making less then baker.


No, thats you telling yourself that. Baker was undrafted. Those that don't get drafted and make good are in a unique situation much like Lin was. YOu are a free agent.
Maybe Baker was getting love elsewhere. Maybe Baker is also very grateful to Knicks organization and sees that if he has an even better season, he can get a better long term contract. Maybe it was us that promised that. If he gets hurt, then we'll still pay him as he has that option.
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Welpee
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8/9/2017  6:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/9/2017  6:50 AM
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.
Bonn1997
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8/9/2017  6:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/9/2017  6:56 AM
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
fishmike
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8/9/2017  9:21 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
One sample size is not small. Thats the amount of training and practice with the Knick coaching staff. Point is they know plenty about him and clearly wanted him back. I am not sure there is much more beyond that worth debating.
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fishmike
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8/9/2017  9:21 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
One sample size is not small. Thats the amount of training and practice with the Knick coaching staff. Point is they know plenty about him and clearly wanted him back. I am not sure there is much more beyond that worth debating.
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BigRedDog
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8/9/2017  9:49 AM
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

martin
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8/9/2017  12:07 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

How is this an argument that holds any water? Generally speaking, Harden and Westbrook can light up ANY defender on any given day. You just compared Baker's defense against 2 MVP candidates

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martin
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8/9/2017  12:13 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that defensive stats are awful and as well Baker is hard to quantify for his defense. A lot of times it's about potential in that area as much as past performance for a first year player.

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fishmike
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8/9/2017  12:29 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

Agreed. Harden lit up Baker badly when they played. Same as Westbrook. Last yr offense was bad, hustled but same as any d leaguer. Over rated defensively. Contract given to him was ridiculous. Should have been paid about 1/2 , 3 yr contact and if anything a team option. I think Hornachek loves him and had something to do with the contract. Mills did this before Perry came on. Hopefully we won't see these bad contracts in the future.

I really cant get my head around the bold. Its about as low level a deal you can get in the NBA, and this was for a guy who came in, worked hard and the coaching staff clearly likes very much. There is really nothing ridiculous or headscratching about it. There is no prospect we like being left off the roster because of this. There is not FA left on the table because Baker's deal took the money. I mean whats ridiculous? Guy got a short term 1 or 2 year deal to stick around. The money, player, roster fit... all make sense. Its just such a low level deal for a player that is clearly liked by the coaching staff... yet people cant get their heads around this. Me either I guess!
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newyorknewyork
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8/9/2017  1:08 PM
I look forward to watching the French Bakery aka Frank&Bake (Yes? No?). D some of these guards up.

In the past someone put up game tape of Frank. Wasn't a highlight tape so you were able to watch him as he plays the game. And I was impressed on how he played D off the ball. Playing angles and always looking to cover as much ground as possible. Just like Baker. The same characteristics that Baker displays which comes from players that really care about defense.

Hoping they can form some type of defensive tandem.

Welpee
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8/9/2017  1:11 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
I think a lot of posters put way too much relevance on these advanced stats. I could care less if Baker put the clamps on Jose Calderon or Sonny Weems (if he's even in the league). When I watched him against other starting point guards he more often than not couldn't stay in front of them nor could he get by them on the other end. I think he is a Matthew Dellevadova type player, which is fine for an undrafted player. MAYBE Derek Fisher is his ultimate, EXTREME high ceiling one day. But some here are pumping him up to be more than he is, including the knicks.
Bonn1997
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8/9/2017  1:38 PM
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
I think a lot of posters put way too much relevance on these advanced stats. I could care less if Baker put the clamps on Jose Calderon or Sonny Weems (if he's even in the league). When I watched him against other starting point guards he more often than not couldn't stay in front of them nor could he get by them on the other end. I think he is a Matthew Dellevadova type player, which is fine for an undrafted player. MAYBE Derek Fisher is his ultimate, EXTREME high ceiling one day. But some here are pumping him up to be more than he is, including the knicks.

Is FG% really such an advanced stat?
nixluva
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8/9/2017  2:05 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
I think a lot of posters put way too much relevance on these advanced stats. I could care less if Baker put the clamps on Jose Calderon or Sonny Weems (if he's even in the league). When I watched him against other starting point guards he more often than not couldn't stay in front of them nor could he get by them on the other end. I think he is a Matthew Dellevadova type player, which is fine for an undrafted player. MAYBE Derek Fisher is his ultimate, EXTREME high ceiling one day. But some here are pumping him up to be more than he is, including the knicks.

Is FG% really such an advanced stat?

Also not for nothing but the Elite PG's in this league are almost impossible to stop. Any resistance you can get is a plus, but those guys get big numbers for a reason. The point is that Baker is Exponentially better than DRose or Jennings were on D and it was visually notable. Baker was also doing this as a DAMN ROOKIE! WTF is wrong with Knicks fans? The kid is only going to get better given it was his 1st time defending Elite NBA PG's. JESUS!
knicks1248
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8/9/2017  2:10 PM
BAKER HAS A NTC..LMAO..who's this guys agent, I love him

Bobby Marks
ESPN

The Knicks Ron Baker has a one-year bird restriction based on the player option for 2018-19. Baker technically has a no trade clause and would have to approve of any trade.


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Welpee
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8/9/2017  2:17 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:Ron is a premium defender in this league and he's one of the few on the team that can effectively defend the three ball the biggest part of the ***** chucking league .
Why do people keep saying Ron is a good defender? Just because he hustles and plays next to dudes who play no defense doesn't mean he's a good defender. He give effort and plays hard (I'll give him that), I seemed to remember when he was put in position to guard anyone with a ounce of quickness he got exposed.

His opponent FG% was pretty low despite being on a poor defensive team. (I believe it was 42%.) Everything we have about Ron is based on a small number of minutes though.
I think a lot of posters put way too much relevance on these advanced stats. I could care less if Baker put the clamps on Jose Calderon or Sonny Weems (if he's even in the league). When I watched him against other starting point guards he more often than not couldn't stay in front of them nor could he get by them on the other end. I think he is a Matthew Dellevadova type player, which is fine for an undrafted player. MAYBE Derek Fisher is his ultimate, EXTREME high ceiling one day. But some here are pumping him up to be more than he is, including the knicks.

Is FG% really such an advanced stat?

Also not for nothing but the Elite PG's in this league are almost impossible to stop. Any resistance you can get is a plus, but those guys get big numbers for a reason. The point is that Baker is Exponentially better than DRose or Jennings were on D and it was visually notable. Baker was also doing this as a DAMN ROOKIE! WTF is wrong with Knicks fans? The kid is only going to get better given it was his 1st time defending Elite NBA PG's. JESUS!
That's like saying a Ford Fiesta is a better car than the Pinto or the Escort. Just because he sucks less than the other two doesn't make him good on D. And forget about elite PGs, how is he doing against starting pgs? I'm assuming somebody will post some stat to indicate he's Gary Payton on defense, but my eyes tell me a different story.

I have nothing again Baker and I'm glad to have him on the team. My issue is with the posters over hyping him. I think I read somewhere somebody posted one of the reason they didn't want Kyrie was because he would take minutes from Baker.

Baker will (hopefully) but a good and valuable role player, probably off the bench. He had an encouraging rookie year. He is not the next John Stockton.

Bonn1997
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8/9/2017  2:18 PM
knicks1248 wrote:BAKER HAS A NTC..LMAO..who's this guys agent, I love him

Bobby Marks
ESPN

The Knicks Ron Baker has a one-year bird restriction based on the player option for 2018-19. Baker technically has a no trade clause and would have to approve of any trade.


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Sounds fishy but could be true. What does "technically has a no trade clause" mean exactly? It's not a very technical issue. Either he does or doesn't.
Knicks Sign Baker too, he got the big table

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