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If you want more detail than "Knicks are stupid because they suck" in an offseason grade report here you go (from B/R)
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fishmike
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8/3/2017  10:45 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2721332-grading-every-new-york-knicks-offseason-move-so-far

The timing has been off, the spending extravagant, and a few all-caps-boldface tasks on the New York Knicks' offseason to-do list remain unchecked.

To be charitable, though, the available options have not been wonderful.

The Knicks began the offseason with:

Four backcourt vacancies
A No. 8 draft pick
About $13.9 million in cap space
A monster contract attached to a no-trade clause
A disgruntled young star at odds with an unyielding head of basketball operations
An owner who most recently grabbed headlines for unceremoniously ousting a Knicks legend from Madison Square Garden and skipping the NBA draft to play the bass while wearing an unbecoming hat
Sure, Kevin Durant will gladly take a pay cut to play for the Golden State Warriors. Sure, I'd walk to Madison Square Garden from Queens if the Knicks were in the Finals.

However, if you were trying to entice me to the crushing madhouse of Times Square on New Year's Eve, I'd need to be carried there in a lushly pillowed, silk-veiled palanquin and plied with stacks of Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

If the destination is less appetizing, the paycheck needs to be higher. So all things considered, how has the front office fared so far?

Firing Phil Jackson
1 OF 6

Julie Jacobson/Associated Press
The Knicks parted ways with Phil Jackson on June 28—after the NBA draft but before free agency began. Surely it would have been preferable for the Knicks to allow a new architect to select their lottery pick.

Yet, it could have been worse. Jackson's presence—first an attraction, later perhaps a repellent—did not have a chance to impact free agents' decisions about signing in New York. Nor did Jackson have an opportunity to build a team to his own interests that a new GM would subsequently have to live with.

Most importantly, it was the right decision.

Because fans demanded it? No. (But they did.)

Because he publicly denigrated his most talented (or at least highest paid) veteran player on multiple occasions? No. (But he did.)

Because he was barely on speaking terms with his most talented young player? No. (But he was.)

It was the right decision because he was bad at the job. NBA executives must sign personnel with an eye for winning championships. At best, he signed personnel like a guy who runs practices. At worst, like a fan.

All fans have their "type." The speedy, undersized point guard with the sick handle, the roaring rim protector with the beastly blocks, the scrappy bench player whose name is never learned by anyone but the home crowd.

If Phil Jackson had his druthers, he would have a team of super-coachable, pass-first players who were either Europeans or undrafted Midwesterners. At least half would be seven feet tall. Only one would be a guard.

Maybe it's OK, even for an executive, to have some favorites. And every team needs the gutsy bench players who bring effort. But a team also needs something else: talent.

Not just "solid role player" talent. All-Star-quality talent. Every championship team does need a little of that too. Treating those players like they're not just expendable, but undesirable, is not smart NBA front-office management. Yes, stars do need to be yanked off high horses sometimes, but that is the coach's job, not the president's.

Jackson never understood that he wasn't the coach. He tried to force a system onto personnel, whether it fit or not, instead of trusting his coach to find a system that worked best. He blathered about building "culture" but was the worst teammate of all.

Firing him was the right move. It simply took too long.
Final Grade: A for concept. D for execution.


Drafting Frank Ntilikina

2 OF 6

Frank Franklin II/Associated Press
The pressure is most certainly on the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick, point guard Frank Ntilikina, most recently of Strasbourg in the France Pro-A League.

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.

Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.

Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.

One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.

A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

Ntilikina will likely give New York fans a show they're not used to seeing when he arrives at the Garden. In the meantime, Knicks fans watching Orlando Summer League did at least get a good look at a second-round selection, guard Damyean Dotson, showing off his smooth stroke.

Dotson shot 48 percent from the field, and from downtown, averaging 12.8 points per game. He shone in the matchup with the Miami Heat, logging 20 points, nine rebounds and four assists.

Final Grade: B+

Signing Tim Hardaway Jr.
3 OF 6

Mike Zarrilli/Getty Images
New York inked Tim Hardaway Jr. to a four-year $71-million contract after the Atlanta Hawks chose not to match the Knicks' offer sheet for the restricted free agent.

Let's not waste lamentations on the "why did we trade a guy in 2015 just to re-sign him in 2017" question. Remember that the Hardaway who Phil Jackson & Co. swapped was the textbook definition of "defensive liability." His sophomore season was characterized by quick yanks off the floor, and Hardaway sulking on the bench, folded into in a cocoon of resentment.

Under the Atlanta coaching staff's tutelage, Hardaway morphed into a beautiful two-way player. Not only did he average 14.5 points per game (on 45.5 percent from the field), he was a top-50 NBA defender (top 20 for guards).

If he has truly grown out of his pouty attitude, he is just the kind of wing the Knicks backcourt needs. But $71 million...

The price tag only begins to make some sense if you consider a few factors: It had to be high enough that Atlanta wouldn't match it and high enough to be an adequate "take me back" present. After Hardaway suffered the indignity of getting dealt on draft night in front of his friends at Clyde's Wine and Dine only "30 seconds" after getting the heads-up call from his agent, being stingy wouldn't do.

Also, if you assume that Carmelo Anthony's contract will somehow come off the books, the sudden noise of cap space being sucked away isn't quite so disconcerting. And if the Knicks are devoted to building a young core, a four-year investment in a 25-year-old player might make sense.

Nevertheless, this contract is essentially the same size as the one given to Joakim Noah—which was also too high, but mostly because it was a high-risk investment on an injured player. However, Noah was only one season removed from being an All-Star and Defensive Player of the Year when his deal was signed. Hardaway hasn't proven that level of ability yet.

Final Grade: B for the player, C- for the contract


Re-Signing Ron Baker

4 OF 6

Nathaniel S. Butler/Getty Images
The Knicks re-signed their undrafted free agent Ron Baker to a two-year, $8.9 million contract, which ultimately left them with nothing but spare change to sign anyone else—unless, that is, the Anthony contract actually is unloaded.

Giving Baker a player option in the second year of that contract was, perhaps, unwisely kind-hearted.

Yet, it's not a blatantly unreasonable contract these days for a ballsy, two-way, backup combo guard who is just as happy to make a sneaky pocket pass as he is to take the big shot in clutch time.

Baker leaped into the league with more confidence and poise than most undrafted rookies do, whether it was stepping in for Derrick Rose in the fourth quarter or smothering Steph Curry on the perimeter. The New York fans who cheered "We want Baker" last season should expect more of the same for the next two years. $8.9 million isn't as exorbitant a price to pay for that pleasure as the highway robbery at Madison Square Garden concessions.

Final Grade: B


Hiring Scott Perry
5 OF 6

Jennifer Pottheiser/Getty Images
On draft night, NBA observers across the country scratched their heads, furrowed their brows and marveled as the Sacramento Kings (the Sacramento Kings!) made several (several!) intelligent moves. (The Kings? The Kings!) With bemused attaboys, we crowned Sacramento the kings of draft night.

One of the masterminds behind all this activity, and the encouraging free agency period Sacramento has since begun, was assistant GM Scott Perry, who just joined the team in April.

Thursday night, however, the Knicks hired Perry to be New York's new GM, per Stefan Bondy of the New York Daily News.

Perry is a seasoned NBA executive who spent most of his career with the Detroit Pistons and was more recently with the Orlando Magic before the burst of excitement with the Kings.

It is too soon to call this an A. However, the smart moves in Sacramento, the genuine front office experience and the fact that he is not just a "household name" makes this hire, if not automatically better, then certainly different than the same old stuff from James Dolan & Company.

That said, this deal may have sneaked through because Dolan believes he's hiring Steve Perry, former frontman of Journey, and hopes his golden voice will join JD & The Straight Shot.

Way Too Early Grade: B+

Moving Melo...or Not Moving Melo...or What?
6 OF 6

Elsa/Getty Images
I hope you took your Dramamine this week, folks, because the Melo merry-go-round went round and round faster and faster, and then abruptly screeched to a halt. Who doesn't feel a bit sick?

All week, rumors buzzed about a four-team trade that might send Carmelo Anthony to the Houston Rockets. Who were the other two teams? Nobody knew! What might the Knicks get in return? Unclear! Nevertheless, the deal was so near completion a source told Stefan Bondy and Frank Isola of the New York Daily News it was "on the two-yard-line."

Until late Thursday, when ESPN's Ramona Shelburne and Adrian Wojnarowski reported the Knicks were pausing all trade talks related to Carmelo.

Perhaps Perry just wants a face-to-face with his highest paid player before making moves. Perhaps he's stalling because he hasn't had the job 24 hours yet. Perhaps he genuinely feels Carmelo Anthony will be best for the team.

However, if a deal does not happen, the Hardaway and Baker signings once again seem recklessly lavish and the salary cap collapses in on the Knicks with the anxious immediacy of an eviction notice.

Final Grade: Incomplete. I refuse to grade this frenetic lack of forward movement. At least not until the room stops spinning.

The Knicks also get a D for cutting underused forward Maurice Ndour, supposedly to clear cap space. Considering the Knicks' defensive misery, a spry, springy rebounder and shot blocker shouldn't be tossed aside so easily.

Overall, though, a forgiving report card for a team still in disarray? Maybe.

These grades, however, represent what an incomplete front office has jerry-rigged with the insufficient tools at-hand. It isn't entirely Steve Mills' fault, and certainly not Scott Perry's, that the Knicks are attempting to build yet another new team with duct tape, apologies and spare parts that someone else broke.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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8/3/2017  10:57 AM
This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GustavBahler
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8/3/2017  10:58 AM
I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

fishmike
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8/3/2017  11:07 AM
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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8/3/2017  11:12 AM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

Simple question - have you been consistently on target with your offseason grading of the Knicks transactions and generally been accurate in your predictions for the season, or like many of us here (including me) have the Knicks consistently underperformed compared to your expectations?

fishmike
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8/3/2017  11:17 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

Simple question - have you been consistently on target with your offseason grading of the Knicks transactions and generally been accurate in your predictions for the season, or like many of us here (including me) have the Knicks consistently underperformed compared to your expectations?

Mixed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheGame
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8/3/2017  11:18 AM
I just cannot wait until the season starts and we can see Frank play. Summertime is brutal and I did not get my usually fix of seeing our top pick play in summer league. Who was the idiot who did not send the Knicks to vegas for summer league. You have two rookies and four second year's who need experience and you only send them to Orlando. Phils last bad decision. Glad he is gone. The analysis is spot on.
Trust the Process
fishmike
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8/3/2017  11:26 AM
TheGame wrote:I just cannot wait until the season starts and we can see Frank play. Summertime is brutal and I did not get my usually fix of seeing our top pick play in summer league. Who was the idiot who did not send the Knicks to vegas for summer league. You have two rookies and four second year's who need experience and you only send them to Orlando. Phils last bad decision. Glad he is gone. The analysis is spot on.
I posted it because there was analysis... period. Its been nothing but "KNicks overpaid... F" or "DSJ killed it in summer league, Frank didnt pay... F"

It was nice to read some actual basketball analysis

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
HofstraBBall
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8/3/2017  11:33 AM
fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Nalod
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8/3/2017  11:45 AM
Summer league is largely over rated. Looks like one of those showcase games. Guys like dennis smith will look great. They should.
To make any judgement about a rookie based on that is not complete.
As for judging grades or the analysis of any of us its not a question of who is right or wrong because some of us just plainly "HOPE" for the best.
Its also a quesion of time and patience.

Dennis Smith might light it up, be a great scoring guard while frank might still be growing, play solid defense, and in time, like 5 years out we can fully judge.

Yeah, 5 years! A lifetime for knick fans and media sluts who have judged Smith on a failed dunk to be rookie of the year.

fishmike
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8/3/2017  11:47 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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8/3/2017  11:56 AM
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

Simple question - have you been consistently on target with your offseason grading of the Knicks transactions and generally been accurate in your predictions for the season, or like many of us here (including me) have the Knicks consistently underperformed compared to your expectations?

Mixed.

Cool.

Anyone consistently "anti" has a better track record than you.

Knickoftime
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8/3/2017  12:00 PM
fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

fishmike
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8/3/2017  12:05 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

Simple question - have you been consistently on target with your offseason grading of the Knicks transactions and generally been accurate in your predictions for the season, or like many of us here (including me) have the Knicks consistently underperformed compared to your expectations?

Mixed.

Cool.

Anyone consistently "anti" has a better track record than you.

Do you feel better now than you did before submitting that? I hope so.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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8/3/2017  12:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/3/2017  12:08 PM
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:I like the point about "concept and execution". I also agree it could be worse, Phil could still be here, we would still be dealing with the Triangle as the main focus of the offense. Rose could have been brought back on an expensive multi-year deal, which wouldn't be a first.

I give them a C. Knicks still overpaying, and they passed up on DSJ.

Yea thats a fair take. I like Frank over DSJ. DSJ's whole game is based on getting his. Not a terrible thing. You dont win if you dont score. However I like that we are building around guys who defend, are young and can grow together.

I give the Knicks a C+ (so far). They got better. I like their draft. I love the Dotson in round 2. They got Hardaway and while the contract isnt a number in a vacuum. Knicks were not bidding against themselves. They needed to pay up to land this player. We will see if he continues his upward trend.

A good Melo trade moves this to a B.

My reasoning is simple. Its a new front office. They have pledged the plan is to build around their core of young guys and focus on defense. They added Ntilikina, Dotson and Hardaway. Three 2-way guards with good size, skill and defensive games. They bring back Baker for defense and continuity. That isnt anything magical, but its sound. In line with the plan. It shows a direction and that is a good thing.

I think we see a nice uptick in wins and a probably low playoff seed... something like 38-39 wins an a 7th-8th seed.

Simple question - have you been consistently on target with your offseason grading of the Knicks transactions and generally been accurate in your predictions for the season, or like many of us here (including me) have the Knicks consistently underperformed compared to your expectations?

Mixed.

Cool.

Anyone consistently "anti" has a better track record than you.

Do you feel better now than you did before submitting that? I hope so.

No, not at all.

What I feel like is you won't recognize its significance.

HofstraBBall
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8/3/2017  12:10 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
fishmike
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8/3/2017  12:10 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

He must have given the Knicks a good grade then yea?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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8/3/2017  12:16 PM
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

He must have given the Knicks a good grade then yea?

You're in a huff partly because you think Pelton suggested Ntilikina was a stretch at 8. You remembered wrong, or misunderstood.

fishmike
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8/3/2017  12:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/3/2017  12:25 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:This is what I mean.... actual "reporting" actual information being used and displayed.

This is what I mean on Frank:

A quiet, pass-first European who had never played in the U.S., he had "Phil Jackson" and "triangle offense" written all over him. Don't hold that against him.
Was it heartening and delightful that the Knicks' No. 8 draft pick hurt his knee on the first day of practice and had to skip Summer League? No. However, when the groins and ankles of Lonzo Ball, Markelle Fultz, De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk all staged their own revolts, Knicks fans might have taken some solace in the fact that other teams' top guards missed some summer playing time, too.
Unfortunately, many fans took little comfort in that Thursday night, when Dennis Smith Jr.—who was still available to the Knicks at No. 8—put forth an exhilarating Las Vegas Summer League performance that nearly caused thousands of people to have catastrophic heart failure.
One Smith dunk is being cheered as one of the best plays of summer league—and he didn't even make the shot. However, Knicks fans spitting vitriol at Ntilikina before seeing him play are not only being unfair, but foolish. He was not merely the available point guard prospect best-suited for the triangle offense; he was by far the best defensive point guard, one of the finest defenders at any position and a strong playmaker.
A team that simply could not stop opponents from shooting (and had a non-existent fast-break game) is desperate for guards who can smother three-ballers, provide help and yank down defensive rebounds.

As opposed to "Smith looks great. Knicks are dumb. Grade F"

Agree that you cant judge a guy by a "Missed Dunk" But Smith "looking great" does hint to his talent and that he may have been a very good pick. My argument, against Frank, has been that the pick was purely a "Triangle" pick. Which we now see made no sense. Don't believe Frank was the best player available. Specially considering Knicks just paid $18M for a player, they may have been able to pick up in the draft, that would have similar attributes.

and my retort to that is it makes zero sense. I always ask the same thing... what are those attributes? You dont have to agree Frank was the best player on the board. Nobody knows that now. Frank was NOT a stretch. He was regarded as the highest ceiling defender and was coveted by the team right behind us as well.

Summer league is not an indication of future performance. If it was the Knicks would have had a foundation bigman and Majec Lampe and Kris Dunn would not have struggled as he did his rookie season.

Everyone that says "Frank was a triangle pick" then vanishes after I ask what about Frank doesnt translate into say running the P&R? Please explain this to me.

Wait, you post an article ,and in it, the author says that he was most likely a "Triangle pick" but you question people that say the same? Perhaps you should ask B/R? Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll? Don't tell me that the French league has a precedent for projecting NBA success? And just saying he is long and plays hard defense can be said about another 20 guys that were picked after Frank. It cant be your sole analysis on why you think he will be good. Just like a missed dunk cant. I hope your kidding about Frank being wanted by the Mavericks. Don't know if you saw the video of their camp when Frank was picked by the Knicks. Reminded me of New Years eve celebration. As for Dunn, you have used that before, leaving out he had an injury.

But again, we will have lots to talk about in the coming seasons. I believe Frank is another Jerian Grant and that Smith will be an excellent player(Much better than Frank)

You said YOU thought Frank was a triangle pick. I asked why or what that means. I still havent heard.

I dont have a sole analysis on why I think Frank will be good. I have lots of reasons. Just like I had lots for DSJ and Monk. If there was a sole factor that pushed the KNicks to take him then yes.. it was defense. Knicks have sucked at defense for a decade plus. DSJ projects to have a very low defensive impact. Frank projects very high. Frank played championship basketball vs. grown professional men. DSJ played sub .500 ball vs. college kids.

Or perhaps you can explain why you think he can excel at the NBA level running the pick and roll?Well he's done it in EU vs. a much higher level of competition than DSJ did... so I do have that. Dont take my word for it. There is plenty of video out there. He looks great doing it.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/3/2017  12:24 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:Frank was NOT a stretch.

Someone agrees with you, almost word for word.

"Though Ntilikina was hardly a reach..."

You know who that was?

Kevin Pelton.

He must have given the Knicks a good grade then yea?

You're in a huff partly because you think Pelton suggested Ntilikina was a stretch at 8. You remembered wrong, or misunderstood.

Not true at all. My knock on Pelton's comment was he regurgitated the "triangle pick" comment and followed it with an F grade. I think I was pretty clear about that. I think you just misunderstood.

Are you some kind of opinion moderator? Feel free to take a stance and add to the discussion. Would you like to comment on the article? Do you think the grade listed here is unfair? Tell me your thoughts on the article and the author's take and grades.

You are way to focused on my every word. Maybe a little less SPLAT and a little more Knicks? Join in. The water is warm.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
If you want more detail than "Knicks are stupid because they suck" in an offseason grade report here you go (from B/R)

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