newyorknewyork wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

reub wrote:No to trading our young kids and future draft picks for a high scoring, ball-hogging, no defense kind of guy. Haven't we learned our lesson yet?

No I don't think we have, NY is the definition of the perpetual starfukk. The next shiny object always wins. Because THIS time it will be different.

I hate that stupid "starfukk" term. Anytime someone disagrees with a trade it's a starfukk. It went from being a term that meant trading for old past their prime names because it make a splash to now apparently meaning trading for any star because it's not homegrown talent just because someone happens to not like a trade. It's turned into the UK version of "Yo momma". It's so "fukking" lame.

You can disagree with it all you like. To me anytime we overpay for one dimensional players who can only do one thing will and are "all star" or worse "all star potential" it's starfukking. It's not about the age of the player we are trading for it's about the skillset and the fit and whether we are overpaying for him or not. In my opinion Kyrie can do only one thing well, he doesn't fit our chosen path of young athletic players that play good defense he is at the outside limit of the age range we are supposedly looking at and giving up draft picks and or Frank would basically mean we are repeating the Melo trade. So in my opinion it's just another dumb starfukk and that's what I am going to call it

Also, considering how excited some here are about getting Kyrie, I'm surprised no one has disagreed with me when I've been calling him just a top 40 NBA player. I'm not going to actually take the time to count every player that I think is better than Kyrie now, but I'll go through the list at PG. If we ignore age for a minute and just look at current performance, I'd put these players (in no particular order) ahead of Kyrie: Chris Paul, Isaiah Thomas, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, and Damian Lillard. I'd say he's tied with Mike Conley. I'd put Kyrie ahead of John Wall but I'm sure some would disagree. I'll say he's tied for 7th at his position, which would extrapolate to around 35th to 40th in the league, though a better analysis would actually count the players at each position. (If we're considering age and long-term planning, I'd have to go through the list again. Some of those guys I'd remove but I'm sure there are younger players on cheaper contracts that I'd throw in ahead of Kyrie too.)

Thomas Harden Lillard all are almost non defenders, Harden was one dimensional until he had the ball 95% of the time, and while I cant look it up now, i am willing to bet Kyrie had stats similar to Millard and Thomas, and was in a different league than Conley, although I look at Irving as Conley on roids.

That puts them on par with Irving then. It would be interesting to compare their opponent FG%s. I'll try to do that later today.

You said those guys were all better markedly better than Irving. Half of them have the same knock as Irving and Irving put up comparable number-i haven't had a chance to look them up but other than Westbrook and Harden, and Paul's assists, I am willing to bet they are similar. And his numbers are flat out better than Conley.

Memphis made the playoffs in the West with not much on their squad. Gasol, past it Randolph, & Conley. Broken down Parson who had a terrible year injury plagued year. Conley held a 209 WS48 which is better then what Irving held with more talent. Conley put up a .604 TS% which is great for a guard and also better than Irving. Conley held higher Win Shares offensively and defensively. Held a higher Offensive plus minus and Defensive plus minus and doubled Irving in Box plus minus which is the total score of both. As well as a higher Value Over Replacement than Irving. Outperformed Irving in per 100 possessions offensive rating & defensive rating 120-108 to 116-112.

Conley was a flat out better player then Irving last year with less help vs tougher comp.

I admire your knowledge of advance statistics. I am not as you are in their application. But allow me this. You said Kyrie had a better cast. Then quote that Conley had a better value over replacement. But with a better cast was Kyrie's backup better than Conley's? I am not sure exactly how they measure that stat.

TS%. Kyrie scored 25 points per game as a second scoring option, and being the main guy when Lebron was out. It was his job to score. Conley' S job was to facilitate, taking less shots, especially less contested shots. So wouldn't common sense dictate based on their roles, and quality of shots Conley would average better?

We've already established Kyrie isn't a great defender.

As to your last stats listed, once again Kyrie wasnt in charge of his team's offense Conley was. Kyrie kind of had to take what he was given whole Conley is the decision maker on his team. Defensively, we covered already.

I'm not an expert in advanced stats but those statistics give weight to how Blazers, Denver, Wolves, Dallas all arguably held more talent then Memphis. Yet Memphis held a better record over all of them. Conley had close to an MVP caliber year last yr.

Conley was the 2nd scoring option on the Grizz as well. And is first when Gasol is out. He scored the most point per game on the team. Taking the 2nd most shots on the team. Lead the team in pts per game and assist. Conley is just a technically sound PG who plays a strong all around game but can also drop buckets when needed.

Mostly I was responding to the claim that Irving's numbers were flat out better then Conley's. Conley displayed that he was the best player on Memphis last season and lead them to the playoffs. Something that Irving has yet to display himself. Its possible, but he hasn't proven it.

So it isn't based on what they did but what on the team's around them did?

If that was the case then he wouldnt have held a .209 WS48. And 60% TS, 121 Ortg Conley was a beast last year.

Conley averaged 20pts 3rbs and 6ast in 33 mins (and is also 29)
Kyrie averaged 25pts 3rbs and 5.8ast. In 35 mins (at 25)

This year was arguably the season of Conley's career. Was also probably a career year so far for Kyrie. I think currently they are close to on par. I also think Kyrie has room to grow past Conley.

I can agree that this was probably Conley's peak season. Just like I can't agree that Irving had a better season statistically then Conley like you claimed before.

These stats are similar. But Conley scored his points more efficiently then Irving, played a higher level of defense than Irving which resulted in him being able to contribute more wins to the team than Irving. For this past season. All while doing it with less talent in a harder conference.

Irving is capable of being real efficient and taking his game to another level in terms of offensive efficiency. Everything depends on the price as well as the plan.

I'm with you on just about everything. Conley and Irving did have very similar seasons. Conley is a better defender. I just have to question what role on their perspective team's played in their season. Conley was the engine for his team. He was THE guy. Kyrie was one of the guys who played with Lebron, and still had a stellar season. Someone called Conley a beast before. Kyrie put up very comparable numbers and it is being pushed aside.

I get Kyrie is a bad defender. I get that some guys are having visions that Kyrie is basically Melo at the point. I just happen to disagree with this. I think this can be a different type of deal than the Melo deal, and it does fit in with the overall plan.

You make it seem as if Lebron was holding Kyrie back. But there is also the possibility(a very high possibility, probably more reality than possibility) that Lebron helped make Kyrie more efficient. If Kyrie were to become the focal point of an offense that his efficiency could drop. He will always get stats, but would he be able to maintain efficiency with a higher work load? Would he be able to make a team better the way Conley does as the man?

It is possible he could have a Harden or Westbrook type of explosion minus the rebounding as the focal point. JH pushing the tempo and Irving dropping 30-3-7. Don't want to have to bank on that though. Don't know if that translates to the Knicks actually being able to compete with the top teams in the East. And don't know what it would leave us with in terms of trying to build on top of that.

2013-14 Suns - J. Hornacek (48-34) G. Dragic TS% .604 Win Shares 10.3 WS/48 .186

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