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Off Topic: six months later, do people who voted for Trump still support this guy?
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meloshouldgo
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8/24/2017  12:16 PM
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:I hope these Bernie voters are happy now. Looks like about 20% didn't vote for Clinton and about 12% voted for Trump!!!


These guys and those Jill Stein voters should be really proud and happy with how there votes helped elect Trump!

What percent of the total electorate did these there categories combined make up in your opinion? Do you have any idea if it would have made a significant difference or not if they all voted for Hillary state by state ? Or are you going to keep bashing these people based on incomplete data?

You are really coming off as a hater here. I asked you multiple times, how you expect people to hold their politicians accountable other than by not voting for them and I get crickets.

The predominant story is people should vote for HRC to avoid Trump, Obama to about Romney and before him McCain/Palin, Clinton to avoid Bush. You see the problem with this right? There's always the big bad wolf out there and we need to vote for worthless centrist policies (that coddle the 1%-ers) to keep them at bay.

It's time moderates and centrists wake up and realize we don't give a **** about NAFTA and big banks, instead we care about our pocket books. You don't have to like it, but keep pushing this nonsense and you lose all credibility.

We do know how many votes Jill Stein got and if you were to combine those votes with the Bernie Defectors and no Votes, I have no doubt that it would've made a difference. Not to mention the fact that there were Voter Purges of AA's which shaved a few more votes. It's not just one thing but a combination.

I bring this up as a lesson to those who think it was worth it to make a statement instead of uniting behind Hillary and at least then Bernie and his voters would have a voice and a say in what is going on. Bernie had already managed to pull Hillary to the left which you seem to have forgotten. He would've had leverage to do even more with Hillary and the Dems in charge. You see these voters that wanted to make a statement and show the Moderate and Centrist Dems, only served to give total power to the Republicans. How does that help the Progressive cause??? It doesn't! So as i've said before that strategy was STUPID!

The votes mattered cuz the gap wasn't that big in the key states that put Trump over the top!!!

The most important states, though, were Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Trump won those states by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points, respectively — and by 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes. Those three wins gave him 46 electoral votes; if Clinton had done one point better in each state, she'd have won the electoral vote, too.

Knowing how many people voted for Jill Stein isn't helpful in itself. You still need to know how many of those wouldn't have voted for Jill Stein if the Democrats had filed an appropriate candidate.

I think the fact that moderates are still stewing over this, shows the strategy to send a message actually worked and the message was received. Whether they have what it takes to now take accountability for the last 45 years of BS and do something to earn our trust back is up to them.

Nah! What they did was stupid as F cuz now Bernie has almost zero ability to enact a progressive agenda whereas he would've been able to get his ideas heard and many put forth if the Dems were in charge.

You guys are the proof of the folli of letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good! Taking a smaller victory is much better than a TOTAL LOSS! Now what little gains had been made are being rolled back. If Trump wasn't such a screw up, the Republicans would've already erased most of the progress that had been made. Perhaps you are so caught up in your self righteousness that you haven't been paying attention to what Trump and the Republicans have been doing.

That's not how I see it at all.
This isn't about Bernie and while I would have preferred him over HRC, I know fully well progressives will never have enough of a majority by themselves to affect policy change.

So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

While we are liberal on social issues, at the end of the day just about everyone votes based on their pocket book and not their moral compass. (I use "we" loosely, I can only speak for myself.)

So to quote someone you may be familiar with: It's the economy, stupid.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
AUTOADVERT
Knickoftime
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8/24/2017  12:27 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

Please take this question literally and on the surface.

Does a trump presidency not combine the threat of White supremacists and Wall Street, yes or no?

And what is the endgame here? Do you genuinely feel that moving further to the left is the best counter to the populist resentment movement Trump embodies?

nixluva
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8/24/2017  12:33 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:I hope these Bernie voters are happy now. Looks like about 20% didn't vote for Clinton and about 12% voted for Trump!!!


These guys and those Jill Stein voters should be really proud and happy with how there votes helped elect Trump!

What percent of the total electorate did these there categories combined make up in your opinion? Do you have any idea if it would have made a significant difference or not if they all voted for Hillary state by state ? Or are you going to keep bashing these people based on incomplete data?

You are really coming off as a hater here. I asked you multiple times, how you expect people to hold their politicians accountable other than by not voting for them and I get crickets.

The predominant story is people should vote for HRC to avoid Trump, Obama to about Romney and before him McCain/Palin, Clinton to avoid Bush. You see the problem with this right? There's always the big bad wolf out there and we need to vote for worthless centrist policies (that coddle the 1%-ers) to keep them at bay.

It's time moderates and centrists wake up and realize we don't give a **** about NAFTA and big banks, instead we care about our pocket books. You don't have to like it, but keep pushing this nonsense and you lose all credibility.

We do know how many votes Jill Stein got and if you were to combine those votes with the Bernie Defectors and no Votes, I have no doubt that it would've made a difference. Not to mention the fact that there were Voter Purges of AA's which shaved a few more votes. It's not just one thing but a combination.

I bring this up as a lesson to those who think it was worth it to make a statement instead of uniting behind Hillary and at least then Bernie and his voters would have a voice and a say in what is going on. Bernie had already managed to pull Hillary to the left which you seem to have forgotten. He would've had leverage to do even more with Hillary and the Dems in charge. You see these voters that wanted to make a statement and show the Moderate and Centrist Dems, only served to give total power to the Republicans. How does that help the Progressive cause??? It doesn't! So as i've said before that strategy was STUPID!

The votes mattered cuz the gap wasn't that big in the key states that put Trump over the top!!!

The most important states, though, were Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Trump won those states by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points, respectively — and by 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes. Those three wins gave him 46 electoral votes; if Clinton had done one point better in each state, she'd have won the electoral vote, too.

Knowing how many people voted for Jill Stein isn't helpful in itself. You still need to know how many of those wouldn't have voted for Jill Stein if the Democrats had filed an appropriate candidate.

I think the fact that moderates are still stewing over this, shows the strategy to send a message actually worked and the message was received. Whether they have what it takes to now take accountability for the last 45 years of BS and do something to earn our trust back is up to them.

Nah! What they did was stupid as F cuz now Bernie has almost zero ability to enact a progressive agenda whereas he would've been able to get his ideas heard and many put forth if the Dems were in charge.

You guys are the proof of the folli of letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good! Taking a smaller victory is much better than a TOTAL LOSS! Now what little gains had been made are being rolled back. If Trump wasn't such a screw up, the Republicans would've already erased most of the progress that had been made. Perhaps you are so caught up in your self righteousness that you haven't been paying attention to what Trump and the Republicans have been doing.

That's not how I see it at all.
This isn't about Bernie and while I would have preferred him over HRC, I know fully well progressives will never have enough of a majority by themselves to affect policy change.

So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

While we are liberal on social issues, at the end of the day just about everyone votes based on their pocket book and not their moral compass. (I use "we" loosely, I can only speak for myself.)

So to quote someone you may be familiar with: It's the economy, stupid.


PLEASE! Stop with the BS! This White Supremacist crap is the least of the problem with Trump and Republican Control and you know it.

You are seriously flawed in your thinking IMO. PROGRESSIVES would've had substantially greater say in affairs with Hillary as President as opposed to Trump. In fact you know damned well that Hillary was pulled much further left because of Bernie and that was at least going to help get the right policies on the table. Exactly how does Trump and the Republicans being in control further any of the things you say you stand for? They are in complete opposition to most of what you claim to stand for.

You can keep on lying to yourself about this but you know that this was a BIG mistake and real damage is being done and will continue to be done if Trump and the Republicans stay in charge.

meloshouldgo
Posts: 23993
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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8/24/2017  12:43 PM
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:I hope these Bernie voters are happy now. Looks like about 20% didn't vote for Clinton and about 12% voted for Trump!!!


These guys and those Jill Stein voters should be really proud and happy with how there votes helped elect Trump!

What percent of the total electorate did these there categories combined make up in your opinion? Do you have any idea if it would have made a significant difference or not if they all voted for Hillary state by state ? Or are you going to keep bashing these people based on incomplete data?

You are really coming off as a hater here. I asked you multiple times, how you expect people to hold their politicians accountable other than by not voting for them and I get crickets.

The predominant story is people should vote for HRC to avoid Trump, Obama to about Romney and before him McCain/Palin, Clinton to avoid Bush. You see the problem with this right? There's always the big bad wolf out there and we need to vote for worthless centrist policies (that coddle the 1%-ers) to keep them at bay.

It's time moderates and centrists wake up and realize we don't give a **** about NAFTA and big banks, instead we care about our pocket books. You don't have to like it, but keep pushing this nonsense and you lose all credibility.

We do know how many votes Jill Stein got and if you were to combine those votes with the Bernie Defectors and no Votes, I have no doubt that it would've made a difference. Not to mention the fact that there were Voter Purges of AA's which shaved a few more votes. It's not just one thing but a combination.

I bring this up as a lesson to those who think it was worth it to make a statement instead of uniting behind Hillary and at least then Bernie and his voters would have a voice and a say in what is going on. Bernie had already managed to pull Hillary to the left which you seem to have forgotten. He would've had leverage to do even more with Hillary and the Dems in charge. You see these voters that wanted to make a statement and show the Moderate and Centrist Dems, only served to give total power to the Republicans. How does that help the Progressive cause??? It doesn't! So as i've said before that strategy was STUPID!

The votes mattered cuz the gap wasn't that big in the key states that put Trump over the top!!!

The most important states, though, were Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Trump won those states by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points, respectively — and by 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes. Those three wins gave him 46 electoral votes; if Clinton had done one point better in each state, she'd have won the electoral vote, too.

Knowing how many people voted for Jill Stein isn't helpful in itself. You still need to know how many of those wouldn't have voted for Jill Stein if the Democrats had filed an appropriate candidate.

I think the fact that moderates are still stewing over this, shows the strategy to send a message actually worked and the message was received. Whether they have what it takes to now take accountability for the last 45 years of BS and do something to earn our trust back is up to them.

Nah! What they did was stupid as F cuz now Bernie has almost zero ability to enact a progressive agenda whereas he would've been able to get his ideas heard and many put forth if the Dems were in charge.

You guys are the proof of the folli of letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good! Taking a smaller victory is much better than a TOTAL LOSS! Now what little gains had been made are being rolled back. If Trump wasn't such a screw up, the Republicans would've already erased most of the progress that had been made. Perhaps you are so caught up in your self righteousness that you haven't been paying attention to what Trump and the Republicans have been doing.

That's not how I see it at all.
This isn't about Bernie and while I would have preferred him over HRC, I know fully well progressives will never have enough of a majority by themselves to affect policy change.

So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

While we are liberal on social issues, at the end of the day just about everyone votes based on their pocket book and not their moral compass. (I use "we" loosely, I can only speak for myself.)

So to quote someone you may be familiar with: It's the economy, stupid.


PLEASE! Stop with the BS! This White Supremacist crap is the least of the problem with Trump and Republican Control and you know it.

You are seriously flawed in your thinking IMO. PROGRESSIVES would've had substantially greater say in affairs with Hillary as President as opposed to Trump. In fact you know damned well that Hillary was pulled much further left because of Bernie and that was at least going to help get the right policies on the table. Exactly how does Trump and the Republicans being in control further any of the things you say you stand for? They are in complete opposition to most of what you claim to stand for.

You can keep on lying to yourself about this but you know that this was a BIG mistake and real damage is being done and will continue to be done if Trump and the Republicans stay in charge.

I have been a progressive for a long time. I don't remember having a say in anything over the last 40 something years. So maybe you need to stop with the BS. NOTHING about Hillary being pulled left by Bernie would have translated to policy. And I am perfectly fine with not voting for either loser and it doesn't require me to lie to myself. If it happens again, I will do it again.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
meloshouldgo
Posts: 23993
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8/24/2017  12:50 PM
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:I hope these Bernie voters are happy now. Looks like about 20% didn't vote for Clinton and about 12% voted for Trump!!!


These guys and those Jill Stein voters should be really proud and happy with how there votes helped elect Trump!

What percent of the total electorate did these there categories combined make up in your opinion? Do you have any idea if it would have made a significant difference or not if they all voted for Hillary state by state ? Or are you going to keep bashing these people based on incomplete data?

You are really coming off as a hater here. I asked you multiple times, how you expect people to hold their politicians accountable other than by not voting for them and I get crickets.

The predominant story is people should vote for HRC to avoid Trump, Obama to about Romney and before him McCain/Palin, Clinton to avoid Bush. You see the problem with this right? There's always the big bad wolf out there and we need to vote for worthless centrist policies (that coddle the 1%-ers) to keep them at bay.

It's time moderates and centrists wake up and realize we don't give a **** about NAFTA and big banks, instead we care about our pocket books. You don't have to like it, but keep pushing this nonsense and you lose all credibility.

We do know how many votes Jill Stein got and if you were to combine those votes with the Bernie Defectors and no Votes, I have no doubt that it would've made a difference. Not to mention the fact that there were Voter Purges of AA's which shaved a few more votes. It's not just one thing but a combination.

I bring this up as a lesson to those who think it was worth it to make a statement instead of uniting behind Hillary and at least then Bernie and his voters would have a voice and a say in what is going on. Bernie had already managed to pull Hillary to the left which you seem to have forgotten. He would've had leverage to do even more with Hillary and the Dems in charge. You see these voters that wanted to make a statement and show the Moderate and Centrist Dems, only served to give total power to the Republicans. How does that help the Progressive cause??? It doesn't! So as i've said before that strategy was STUPID!

The votes mattered cuz the gap wasn't that big in the key states that put Trump over the top!!!

The most important states, though, were Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Trump won those states by 0.2, 0.7 and 0.8 percentage points, respectively — and by 10,704, 46,765 and 22,177 votes. Those three wins gave him 46 electoral votes; if Clinton had done one point better in each state, she'd have won the electoral vote, too.

Knowing how many people voted for Jill Stein isn't helpful in itself. You still need to know how many of those wouldn't have voted for Jill Stein if the Democrats had filed an appropriate candidate.

I think the fact that moderates are still stewing over this, shows the strategy to send a message actually worked and the message was received. Whether they have what it takes to now take accountability for the last 45 years of BS and do something to earn our trust back is up to them.

Nah! What they did was stupid as F cuz now Bernie has almost zero ability to enact a progressive agenda whereas he would've been able to get his ideas heard and many put forth if the Dems were in charge.

You guys are the proof of the folli of letting the Perfect be the enemy of the Good! Taking a smaller victory is much better than a TOTAL LOSS! Now what little gains had been made are being rolled back. If Trump wasn't such a screw up, the Republicans would've already erased most of the progress that had been made. Perhaps you are so caught up in your self righteousness that you haven't been paying attention to what Trump and the Republicans have been doing.

That's not how I see it at all.
This isn't about Bernie and while I would have preferred him over HRC, I know fully well progressives will never have enough of a majority by themselves to affect policy change.

So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

While we are liberal on social issues, at the end of the day just about everyone votes based on their pocket book and not their moral compass. (I use "we" loosely, I can only speak for myself.)

So to quote someone you may be familiar with: It's the economy, stupid.


PLEASE! Stop with the BS! This White Supremacist crap is the least of the problem with Trump and Republican Control and you know it.

You are seriously flawed in your thinking IMO. PROGRESSIVES would've had substantially greater say in affairs with Hillary as President as opposed to Trump. In fact you know damned well that Hillary was pulled much further left because of Bernie and that was at least going to help get the right policies on the table. Exactly how does Trump and the Republicans being in control further any of the things you say you stand for? They are in complete opposition to most of what you claim to stand for.

You can keep on lying to yourself about this but you know that this was a BIG mistake and real damage is being done and will continue to be done if Trump and the Republicans stay in charge.

What exactly is the biggest problem with Trump and Republican control? (Let's leave social issues off the table, since white supremacy is the least of the problems)

What according to you have Democrats done to save the economy? What did Obama and Democrats do different from what Bush, his appointees did and proposed? Care to lay it out?

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Knickoftime
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8/24/2017  1:47 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:What exactly is the biggest problem with Trump and Republican control?

If you're a progressive, altering and potentially significantly altering the make-up the Supreme Court for a generation is likely a legitimate issue.

What according to you have Democrats done to save the economy? What did Obama and Democrats do different from what Bush, his appointees did and proposed? Care to lay it out?

I'm going to assume you're politically savvy enough to realize 240 years of bureaucracy has rendered the federal government incapable Of doing anything revolutionary or quickly, at least from an immediate results standpoint.

I do know you're savvy enough to know that passing a comprehensive healthcare act was actually an extraordinary political accomplishment. Whether the ACA has been effective is a legitimate question, and it certainly has not "saved the economy." But what we see more more evidence of is that it made healthcare a permanent law of the land. It may take the next democratically-controlled legislative and executive branches of government to vastly improve the ACA or move on to the next iteration of healthcare. It may take two. It may a generation, it may take several. But the biggest hurdle has been met - getting it passed and getting the premise embedded.

Healthcare, of course, is a huge economic issue.

nixluva
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8/24/2017  2:02 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:What exactly is the biggest problem with Trump and Republican control?

If you're a progressive, altering and potentially significantly altering the make-up the Supreme Court for a generation is likely a legitimate issue.

What according to you have Democrats done to save the economy? What did Obama and Democrats do different from what Bush, his appointees did and proposed? Care to lay it out?

I'm going to assume you're politically savvy enough to realize 240 years of bureaucracy has rendered the federal government incapable Of doing anything revolutionary or quickly, at least from an immediate results standpoint.

I do know you're savvy enough to know that passing a comprehensive healthcare act was actually an extraordinary political accomplishment. Whether the ACA has been effective is a legitimate question, and it certainly has not "saved the economy." But what we see more more evidence of is that it made healthcare a permanent law of the land. It may take the next democratically-controlled legislative and executive branches of government to vastly improve the ACA or move on to the next iteration of healthcare. It may take two. It may a generation, it may take several. But the biggest hurdle has been met - getting it passed and getting the premise embedded.

Healthcare, of course, is a huge economic issue.

Thank you! Most definitely the Supreme Court and lower court is critical. As you say it's not realistic to expect immediate change. You have to keep taking small victories. The Civil Rights Movement taught us this.

In fact it is possible to build on things. ACA isn't perfect but you can build on that. Dodd-Frank isn't perfect but you can build on that. Obama moved the ball forward on climate change and renewable energy. It's not enough but it was a start. So how does having Trump and Republican control help move Progressive Policies forward?

meloshouldgo
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8/24/2017  4:16 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:What exactly is the biggest problem with Trump and Republican control?

If you're a progressive, altering and potentially significantly altering the make-up the Supreme Court for a generation is likely a legitimate issue.

What according to you have Democrats done to save the economy? What did Obama and Democrats do different from what Bush, his appointees did and proposed? Care to lay it out?

This was the only issue that made me reconsider my position several times but in the end Clinton baggage outweighed the possibility of suffering through yet another Merrick Garland type situation.
I did however, vote to change the balance of power in the Senate in favor of Democrats.

I'm going to assume you're politically savvy enough to realize 240 years of bureaucracy has rendered the federal government incapable Of doing anything revolutionary or quickly, at least from an immediate results standpoint.

I do know you're savvy enough to know that passing a comprehensive healthcare act was actually an extraordinary political accomplishment. Whether the ACA has been effective is a legitimate question, and it certainly has not "saved the economy." But what we see more more evidence of is that it made healthcare a permanent law of the land. It may take the next democratically-controlled legislative and executive branches of government to vastly improve the ACA or move on to the next iteration of healthcare. It may take two. It may a generation, it may take several. But the biggest hurdle has been met - getting it passed and getting the premise embedded.

Healthcare, of course, is a huge economic issue.

You are right it didn't make the economy better and it doesn't make up for 45 years of Centrist **** we have put up with. When it becomes something useful, more like IF - we can discuss it's merits.

I have never bashed any centrist for anything other than economic policy and that is what Nix and I were discussing, since he was challenging my position in doing so. He has said many times that Obama fixed the economy. Which is flat out wrong.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
meloshouldgo
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8/24/2017  4:22 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

Please take this question literally and on the surface.

Does a trump presidency not combine the threat of White supremacists and Wall Street, yes or no?

And what is the endgame here? Do you genuinely feel that moving further to the left is the best counter to the populist resentment movement Trump embodies?

I didn't vote for Trump and I am not responsible for what it represents. You are trying to create a false equivalency.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
arkrud
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8/24/2017  4:45 PM
Talking about Reps or Deme is mute point.
Both parties represent bureaucracy and corporate culture which is not working any more.
Both are a huge drag on the progress and entirely corrupted.
The new generation is rejecting both of them.
Millennials are going for DAOs, cryptocurrencies, open markets, and they reject bigotry and any kind of close communities.
Technological progress moved far more forward in comparison to our societal stagnation.
Both Dems and Reps are up to crashing change.
He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
Knickoftime
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8/24/2017  5:10 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:You are right it didn't make the economy better and it doesn't make up for 45 years of Centrist **** we have put up with. When it becomes something useful, more like IF - we can discuss it's merits.

Discussing "merits" is only part of the conversation when we're discussing specific policy. You and I both know that conversation can't occur for years, perhaps generations later.

Getting legislation passed, which involves two branches of government, is often the only metric we have to assess term-limited administrations during and immediately following.

He has said many times that Obama fixed the economy. Which is flat out wrong.

No of course he didn't, that's impossible. If anyone expects any administration, in one or two terms, to get their agenda through Congress, and then see immediate results like wages spiking (for instance), they're politically naïve and holding out for unicorn.

Knickoftime
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8/24/2017  5:27 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

Please take this question literally and on the surface.

Does a trump presidency not combine the threat of White supremacists and Wall Street, yes or no?

And what is the endgame here? Do you genuinely feel that moving further to the left is the best counter to the populist resentment movement Trump embodies?

I didn't vote for Trump and I am not responsible for what it represents. You are trying to create a false equivalency.

Not trying to at all, you're being unnecessarily presumptive and defensive. I don't care how you voted, I was responding to what you wrote.

As written, it reads to me like a false contrast - white supremacists (representing Trump) vs. Wall Street (representing Clinton). I read your graph and immediately thought 'Doesn't trump represent both?', the combination of rather than the lesser of two evils?

This is so obvious to me I wanted to know perhaps if you have a different view of trump's economic worldview than I.

That said, from what I gather this is a conversation about principle versus pragmatism. Who are president is as a binary question. That's just a fact, so it's a legitimate argument.

I understand people think Bernie Sanders would've beat Trump, and that's entirely possible. But we also can't forget that the reason Trump won was because Clinton was a historically bad candidate. But if Sanders won you could've said the same about Trump.

The point is I don't see any evidence the country as a whole is truly ready for a progressive agenda. Sanders would've been blocked by the House at minimum, if not by members of his own party.

You've already seen what's happened with redistricting. I think there's a legitimate question that can be asked if moving the democratic party much farther to the left is political suicide.

meloshouldgo
Posts: 23993
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8/24/2017  6:06 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Getting legislation passed, which involves two branches of government, is often the only metric we have to assess term-limited administrations during and immediately following.

Clearly you have a much lower bar for accomplishment than I do. I care more about what problem a piece of legislation fixed or in some cases created thank on whether somebody "accomplished" the feat of passing a law.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
meloshouldgo
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8/24/2017  6:12 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

Please take this question literally and on the surface.

Does a trump presidency not combine the threat of White supremacists and Wall Street, yes or no?

And what is the endgame here? Do you genuinely feel that moving further to the left is the best counter to the populist resentment movement Trump embodies?

I didn't vote for Trump and I am not responsible for what it represents. You are trying to create a false equivalency.

Not trying to at all, you're being unnecessarily presumptive and defensive. I don't care how you voted, I was responding to what you wrote.

As written, it reads to me like a false contrast - white supremacists (representing Trump) vs. Wall Street (representing Clinton). I read your graph and immediately thought 'Doesn't trump represent both?', the combination of rather than the lesser of two evils?

This is so obvious to me I wanted to know perhaps if you have a different view of trump's economic worldview than I.

That said, from what I gather this is a conversation about principle versus pragmatism. Who are president is as a binary question. That's just a fact, so it's a legitimate argument.

I understand people think Bernie Sanders would've beat Trump, and that's entirely possible. But we also can't forget that the reason Trump won was because Clinton was a historically bad candidate. But if Sanders won you could've said the same about Trump.

The point is I don't see any evidence the country as a whole is truly ready for a progressive agenda. Sanders would've been blocked by the House at minimum, if not by members of his own party.

You've already seen what's happened with redistricting. I think there's a legitimate question that can be asked if moving the democratic party much farther to the left is political suicide.

It's not defensive to point out the fallacy which is what it was. The choice in Not binary and two negatives don't make a positive. Real life is not algebra. And no it's Not a legitimate argument.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
nixluva
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8/24/2017  6:16 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Getting legislation passed, which involves two branches of government, is often the only metric we have to assess term-limited administrations during and immediately following.

Clearly you have a much lower bar for accomplishment than I do. I care more about what problem a piece of legislation fixed or in some cases created thank on whether somebody "accomplished" the feat of passing a law.

The problem I have with your position is that it doesn't lead to anything actually getting done or changing for the better!

Also I never said Obama FIXED the economy but the fact that you can't acknowledge that there were some positive things relative to the disaster he inherited bothers me. Not to mention the absolute obstruction and damage to the economy that the Republicans caused during Obama's Presidency. Obama could've accomplished more good if not for the Republican Obstruction.

In a divided country no single President can work miracles in fact you've placed more blame on Centrist Dems as if they're solely responsible. Just gonna ignore Nixon, Ford, Reagan and the Bush regimes?

Knickoftime
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8/24/2017  6:32 PM
Perhaps
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Getting legislation passed, which involves two branches of government, is often the only metric we have to assess term-limited administrations during and immediately following.

Clearly you have a much lower bar for accomplishment than I do. I care more about what problem a piece of legislation fixed or in some cases created thank on whether somebody "accomplished" the feat of passing a law.

Perhaps. But in this polarized political climate, the fact that the bill is relatively popular demonstrates it is doing something positive for enough people to make it relatively popular. For one example, it clearly has been a difference in the lives of people with pre-existing conditions or family members with pre-existing conditions.

As a progressive, who perhaps (?) believes in the single-payer/Medicare-for-all system, you might agree getting a national healthcare system passed at all is a step in that direction, a few of the roadblocks hurtled for the next progressive to pick up the baton.

Maybe 'zero straight to single-payer' was the expectation of some progressives, though in my opinion that seems naïve.

In the last seven years the needle has been moved from 'national healthcare is a progressive, socialist tax-and-spend non-starter' to 'repeal and REPLACE.' The reality of universal healthcare has been changed. Medicare for all sometime in our lifetimes is no longer a pipe dream.

I do consider that to be an accomplishment in both senses, but as you say maybe my bar is lower, and I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Knickoftime
Posts: 23204
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Member: #3370

8/24/2017  6:40 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:So what we are trying to do is move the party back to the left. It's hard because the CENTRISTS have convinced rank and file Democratic voters that them not being in power is a TOTAL LOSS scenario. This could not be further from the truth. Policies created and approved by centrist Democrats have done incalculable damage to the middle class. We don't think Trump coddling white supremacists is that much worse than Clinton coddling Wall Street. White supremacists deciding the future of the country and Wall Street deciding it leads to equally bad outcomes for me. I don't want bWgite supremacy in the US, I also don't want the US to turn into a large Enron.

Please take this question literally and on the surface.

Does a trump presidency not combine the threat of White supremacists and Wall Street, yes or no?

And what is the endgame here? Do you genuinely feel that moving further to the left is the best counter to the populist resentment movement Trump embodies?

I didn't vote for Trump and I am not responsible for what it represents. You are trying to create a false equivalency.

Not trying to at all, you're being unnecessarily presumptive and defensive. I don't care how you voted, I was responding to what you wrote.

As written, it reads to me like a false contrast - white supremacists (representing Trump) vs. Wall Street (representing Clinton). I read your graph and immediately thought 'Doesn't trump represent both?', the combination of rather than the lesser of two evils?

This is so obvious to me I wanted to know perhaps if you have a different view of trump's economic worldview than I.

That said, from what I gather this is a conversation about principle versus pragmatism. Who are president is as a binary question. That's just a fact, so it's a legitimate argument.

I understand people think Bernie Sanders would've beat Trump, and that's entirely possible. But we also can't forget that the reason Trump won was because Clinton was a historically bad candidate. But if Sanders won you could've said the same about Trump.

The point is I don't see any evidence the country as a whole is truly ready for a progressive agenda. Sanders would've been blocked by the House at minimum, if not by members of his own party.

You've already seen what's happened with redistricting. I think there's a legitimate question that can be asked if moving the democratic party much farther to the left is political suicide.

It's not defensive to point out the fallacy which is what it was.

You haven't pointed out that there was any fallacy in the questions, you just stated that there was. In my experience people get personal and avoid questions for a reason.

The choice in Not binary
.

You're misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say the choice was binary I said who the president was going to be was. Clinton or Trump was going to win that election. Period.

Again you're getting overly defensive. I'm just stating a fact. I remain uninterested in who you voted for or why.

And no it's Not a legitimate argument.

Your lack of support of that position speaks louder than that sentence.

gunsnewing
Posts: 55075
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USA
8/24/2017  9:01 PM
How's that Russian investigation and recount going?
nixluva
Posts: 55259
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Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
8/24/2017  9:34 PM
gunsnewing wrote:How's that Russian investigation and recount going?

The Russia Investigation is going well as far as I can tell. Closing in on Trump and his people so it's only a matter of time

arkrud
Posts: 30682
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USA
8/24/2017  9:54 PM
nixluva wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:How's that Russian investigation and recount going?

The Russia Investigation is going well as far as I can tell. Closing in on Trump and his people so it's only a matter of time

Another 3 years and they will have something to show for it... and after another 4 they will have a definitive conclusion.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
Off Topic: six months later, do people who voted for Trump still support this guy?

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