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the islesfan's plan...
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djsunyc
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8/19/2004  11:10 PM
isles - what exactly would you have done if you were isiah and you just got hired in december. i would like to know EXACTLY what your plan would've been just so i don't have any questions or doubts.

if possible, could you please name specific players and picks and lay it all out instead of just saying let the expiring deals go and get under the cap. i would like something detailed. i'm genuninely interested b/c obviously isiah's not doing what you would have hence the constant criticism.
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djsunyc
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8/19/2004  11:13 PM
oh, and this is the roster as you just came in:

pg - eisley, ward, frank
sg - h20, shandon
sf - kvh, othella
pf - dice (just off IR), kurt, spoon
c - deke, doleac

IR - slavko, sweetney, lampe

you still have this years #1 and you're $40 mil OVER the cap (about $90 mil) with ward, dice, and doleac (6 + 8 + 1.5 = 15.5 mil) coming off the books.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08/19/2004 23:30:52]
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  11:20 PM
could you please name specific players and picks

That's a good, reasonable question. In another forum, I was asked by an Isiah critic who posts here to list specific centers that I thought we could get next summer with our expiring contracts (and I did provide a list of some that might be available.) So, using that person's same standard, it's definitely reasonable to ask him what specific players he would get with cap room and draft picks.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08/20/2004 09:42:40]
islesfan
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8/19/2004  11:50 PM
Yawn. You think you're the first one to ask me this? I get asked it and answer it at least once a week it seems.

I'm not going to suggest specific moves and pretend that everything would have happened exactly like I planned. It's unreasonable to ask anybody that since nobody knows for sure what deals could have been made. All I can say is what I've said all along, I would have based everything on Houston's contract expiring. I would have concentrated on getting under the cap by then while collecting as many draft picks and young talent as I could.

Supposedly the Marbury trade was in its infancy stage when Layden was fired so I would have looked into it but I wouldn't have given up as many draft picks and young players as we did. If that killed the deal then so be it. Personally I think that the Suns would have taken less since they were just looking to clear cap space and ended up selling the draft pick later on.

As for this offseason and the next couple offseasons, I would have looked into young cheap players or stopgap veteran players who could help our young guys develop. Like I said, it's completely hypothetical so what trades I would have made during the season to dump McDyess and Ward would affect every move there after.

I know this won't be good enough for most of you but T.S. I don't really care. Stating an opinion on how a GM of your team is building the team is what fans do and I'm free to do it just like all of you. Why am I the only one asked to give a specific and detailed plan on what I would do when it's only being asked so that it can be criticized. Some like every move, I haven't. Deal with it.

Do me a favor and remind me where this post is so that I can just repost this next week.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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8/19/2004  11:54 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
could you please name specific players and picks

That's a good, reasonable question. In another forum, he asked me to list specific centers that I thought we could get next summer with our expiring contracts (and I did provide a list of some that might be available.) So, it's definitely reasonable to ask him what specific players he would get with cap room and draft picks.

LOL You think it's reasonable to compare asking somebody to provide a list of free agent centers for next season and asking somebody to provide a detailed plan from scratch when every hypothetical move directly affects the next? Somehow I don't think I can google a specific plan the way I can a list of free agents for the coming year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  11:55 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
could you please name specific players and picks

That's a good, reasonable question. In another forum, he asked me to list specific centers that I thought we could get next summer with our expiring contracts (and I did provide a list of some that might be available.) So, it's definitely reasonable to ask him what specific players he would get with cap room and draft picks.
LOL You think it's reasonable to compare asking somebody to provide a list of free agent centers for next season and asking somebody to provide a detailed plan from scratch when every hypothetical move directly affects the next? Somehow I don't think I can google a specific plan the way I can a list of free agents for the coming year.
It had nothing to do with free agency. I listed some players who were free agents and some who weren't.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08/19/2004 23:57:25]
simrud
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8/20/2004  12:00 AM
We are building everything of off Houston's year. Craw and Marbury are the only ones signed past that year (and well, Anderson, maybe he will break a leg and retires by then, I mean there has got to be some justice in the wold, come to think about it, maybe Iseah should hire somebody to break his legs, just to make sure fate gets it right) So that's your starting backrout, pretty damn good. thats what, like 14 plus 8 mil, thats 22 of the cap. Assuming the cap is 50, that leaves 28 mil to get a post stud, a couple of solid starters and a bench. Say we give 14mil(MAX) to a stud PF or C. 14's left. Give 6 mil each to the two complemenaty staters. Now we have 2 mil of the cap, 5, mil in the MLE and 1.3 mil in the LLE to get a bench. Sine a guy with 2 mil, sine a guy with 1.3, split the MLE between 2 more guys, and sine a cuple of guys to the minimum to fill out the roster.

C 6mil FA/3mil(of MLE) FA
PF MAX FA/1.3(LLE) FA
SF 6 mil FA/2mil(of MLE) FA
SG Craw/2 mil FA
PG Marbury/minimum

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
islesfan
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8/20/2004  12:07 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
could you please name specific players and picks

That's a good, reasonable question. In another forum, he asked me to list specific centers that I thought we could get next summer with our expiring contracts (and I did provide a list of some that might be available.) So, it's definitely reasonable to ask him what specific players he would get with cap room and draft picks.
LOL You think it's reasonable to compare asking somebody to provide a list of free agent centers for next season and asking somebody to provide a detailed plan from scratch when every hypothetical move directly affects the next? Somehow I don't think I can google a specific plan the way I can a list of free agents for the coming year.
It had nothing to do with free agency. I listed some players who were free agents and some who weren't.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08/19/2004 23:57:25]

Oooo, so it would have taken 2 google searches to find every center in the NBA and pick out 5 or 6 of them. Yeah, that's the same as providing a specific and detailed plan when none of us are privy to exactly who's available on every NBA team.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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8/20/2004  12:41 AM
Islesfan, you're fighting a loosing battle. As, GM you'd have gotten fired before Houstons contract expired. Your plan would be a long term plan (as far as GM years go). The minute MSG started loosing more and more money and a certain amount of fans gave up their season tickets, you'd be gone. This would be long before Houston's contract would end. I know ticket sales were already going down, but with the plan you've been stating it would have probably reached an all time low under your reighn and you'd be gone in a New York minute.

That's why New York needs a GM who can give the fans what they need now while adding young players who can still be around and a huge factor when Houston's contract DOES expire.

After this era ends, Next Up:

Sweetney, Crawford and Ariza.......plus whatever other young bucks we pick up along the way. That's planning for now and later if I've ever seens it.

Also, the offseason isnt done, so we'll see what happens. Plus, when the trade deadline comes NO ONE knows where teams will be headed. Certain teams that were expecting to be better will be faultering and other teams that were suppose to be garbage will be overachieving. Injuries at key positions will take place for certain teams (as it does every year). At that point I suppose we'll reevaluate our position and make the move WE need to make.

In the NYC NOW if just as important as the FUTURE. Isiah's moving in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Don't hate the player, hate the game!

That's MY opinion.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
tkf
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8/20/2004  12:52 AM
The point is islefan has no plan, he just criticizes, and post his opinions, thats all, he could answer that question if he had a clue, but he came back with the " I don't know what moves were available"..LOL..yet he continues to trash IT....OK.. Next he says he would have based everything around Houston's contract and stockpiled draft picks and stop gap veterans..LOL.. in other words he would have followed a long losing tradition perfected by the current bulls, the clippers and the GS warriors.... Then he would have looked around with all his cap room and had no one to sign... that is if he still had a job by then... He then says we gave up too many draft picks for steph..lets see a first rounder this year(in a pretty weak draft) and a future pick we control until year 2010....Lampe, milos(who will never play in the USA) and dice who was never going to be the savior the knicks expected, and oh we did get rid of eisleys contract which alone was enough for me to throw in the rights to milos, so I am confused about all of this youth and picks we gave up... This is just cliche BS that people use who have nothing else concrete and they just pull this one out because they like the way it sounds... The truth is IT has a plan, we are younger, more athletic and talented and the only contracts we have that IT added that will run past Houstons tenure is that of Marbs and crawford and those are completely justifiable...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
djsunyc
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8/20/2004  1:39 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Yawn. You think you're the first one to ask me this? I get asked it and answer it at least once a week it seems.

I'm not going to suggest specific moves and pretend that everything would have happened exactly like I planned. It's unreasonable to ask anybody that since nobody knows for sure what deals could have been made. All I can say is what I've said all along, I would have based everything on Houston's contract expiring. I would have concentrated on getting under the cap by then while collecting as many draft picks and young talent as I could.

Supposedly the Marbury trade was in its infancy stage when Layden was fired so I would have looked into it but I wouldn't have given up as many draft picks and young players as we did. If that killed the deal then so be it. Personally I think that the Suns would have taken less since they were just looking to clear cap space and ended up selling the draft pick later on.

As for this offseason and the next couple offseasons, I would have looked into young cheap players or stopgap veteran players who could help our young guys develop. Like I said, it's completely hypothetical so what trades I would have made during the season to dump McDyess and Ward would affect every move there after.

I know this won't be good enough for most of you but T.S. I don't really care. Stating an opinion on how a GM of your team is building the team is what fans do and I'm free to do it just like all of you. Why am I the only one asked to give a specific and detailed plan on what I would do when it's only being asked so that it can be criticized. Some like every move, I haven't. Deal with it.

Do me a favor and remind me where this post is so that I can just repost this next week.

yawn? wow. didn't mean to come off repetetive, wouldn't want to do that now, would we...

accumulating draft picks? how in the hell do you accumulate draft picks with our roster and bloated contracts? at best, we keep our own. so far, it's been 1 first round pick (2004) and a 2nd rounder next season that's been traded.

btw, please provide a link of your weekly "what i would've done posts" - i must've missed it. and no, i'm not the first, but i figure since you've only made it here recently, we might as well dedicate a post to you and your "plan" so we can refer back to it from time to time.

as simrud said, and if you go to hoopshype and look at the salaries, we ARE under the cap DURING and AFTER houston's last year of his deal. in fact, we're $15 mil (using today's cap #) under in 07/08. we have some young players - crawford (who's 10x the player frank is), sweetney, and ariza. (not to mention young veterans in marbury and tim) AND we still have next year's #1, and i'm pretty sure we have another one as well the following year or two. so it looks like we are working towards houston's last year WHILE accumulating a bunch of "structurally flawed" players that'll give us a chance to win in the meantime.

it's been said 1 MILLION times, and here goes 1,000,001 - anything isiah does, you're going to criticize and make snide remarks about. i guess we all know this but you have this knack that makes people want to reply. so kudos to you for that and i seriously think you get off on hoping the knicks fail so you can gloat which is EXACTLY what a fan should not be. i just hope you're didn't buy any merchandise or god forbid tickets to games b/c you would just be perpetuating and contributing to the people in charge that're so poorly running this team. i say you start a anti-isiah strike and give up watching them and talking about them till after we make the finals. how's that?

btw, the intent of starting this thread wasn't a place for people to come and bash you. i really wanted to know what you would've done. you may have mentioned it back at msg, but i don't remember anymore. reading you over and over making snide remarks about signing vin or getting a structurally flawed crawford...well back up those criticisms and give us names of players we should be going after instead of making fun of the ones we got after the fact.

also, our main problems during layden was an unbalanced and old roster. so far, after 1 trading deadline, and one offseason, the roster has the most balance in since 2000, and we're the youngest we've been since i can remember. have we accumulated more deals, yes, but not during or past the "houston last year" target. the only thing we really lost were a few draft picks which i agree are very important but we still have some.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08/20/2004 01:56:58]
NineMike2Whiskey
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8/20/2004  2:40 AM
Looking at our team, we are 1 defensive, athletic center away from being major contenders. Stripping the club to the minimum is not necessary for obtaining that final piece.

Cant agree with you more, last i check Isiah hasnt yet traded our picks for the next 5 years away.
codeunknown
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8/20/2004  2:42 AM
Attention all posters, veterans and rookies, Islesfan has a plan and it involves definite sucking. And that sucking, mind you, is for years to come. Now, most of the posters here and I don't view sucking as a very appetizing proposition. But, you see, sucking is something Islesfan believes very strongly in - he prefers biting the bullet, grabbing the short end of the stick, bending over backwards even - to get some real bang for his buck.

For whatever reason, Isles thinks that going under the salary cap, a 4 year ordeal in itself, playing the NBA lottery, and begging premier free agents to sign with us is the strategy of choice. But, despite Isles's palpable command of economics, gambling and begging doesn't work.

The NBA is a competition to improve - every team is trying to do it and fast. Now, Ive heard of 1 year plans, 3 year plans - heck even the Human Genome Project had a starting 5 year plan. But, to settle for a 25 year rebuilding plan with no guarantees is sheer buffoonery. What it boils down to, Isles, is the exact same stumbling block from our previous discussion - can you make the argument that an extended sacrifice period is necessary or can improvement be accomplished with intelligent trades and scouting? Looking at our team, we are 1 defensive, athletic center away from being major contenders. Stripping the club to the minimum is not necessary for obtaining that final piece.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
raven
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8/20/2004  4:01 AM
IN France we have a saying which is "don't shoot the ambulances".

I mean, leave him alone, he has the right to think IT's plan is bad, he has the right to hope that we suck just to be able to say "I told you so", and he has the right to post non sense arguments without backing them with links, articles, facts, stats...

After all, in every movie there is a guy that has no clue. This board needed one. The search is over.
djsunyc
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8/20/2004  7:56 AM
Posted by raven:

After all, in every movie there is a guy that has no clue. This board needed one. The search is over.

now that **** was the funniest thing i read in a while.

(no offense isle's, but even you have to admit that's funny)
Nalod
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8/20/2004  8:52 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

isles - what exactly would you have done if you were isiah and you just got hired in december. i would like to know EXACTLY what your plan would've been just so i don't have any questions or doubts.

if possible, could you please name specific players and picks and lay it all out instead of just saying let the expiring deals go and get under the cap. i would like something detailed. i'm genuninely interested b/c obviously isiah's not doing what you would have hence the constant criticism.

THen write 1000 word summary on what you did this summer, mow the lawn, and paint the house.

Too many hypotheticals to reconstruct history. One move begets another and the ripple effect is to varied.

We would likely had a higher draft pick, and perhaps could have moved way to nab Oka4 or howard. Who knows, Kirk Snynder might be the man!

The only choice was to sell off, suck and rebuild. It did not happen.

THere are some fans whom want a championship caliber team and are willing to sacrifice time to get it. No guarantee it happens even with rebuilding like in Chicago. We are not frugle like other teams have been so the Clips are not comparison.

In time we may find the trade to be out of balance as our pick may have been higher, and lampe might turn into a solid pro when he grows up.

Whats also important is the purse strings were loosened and that had a lot to do with the way Isiah was able to make his moves. We bought our way out this time. we are a competitive team with nice pieces now but still have issues and a lot of questions that will be answered in time in the only place it can be resolved: on the court!

A part of me finds the new team intresting and hopeful that the talent can be combined to someting special. A part of me sees lots of talent that has been paid first and not delivered its potential (overrated), and last the potential that this team implodes and is a disaster of epic (salarywise) proportions. IT will take 60 games for this team to be fairly evaluated and I will be patient.

Sweetney is a big cog for this team if he elevates his game. Marbury has been hyped us so big it will be hard for him. He is of a generation that makes a priority of statistics and stature. If he does not put up stats he is not given the respect. If he puts up good numbers he can shrug it off as "I did my part", and if the team wins with his numbers down, he might not get the rightous props. Like I said, he carries a lot of hype and expectations.

I hope most of all he can learn to win and is looked upon as a leader and deal with a more mature outlook. He might be happier and more effective that way. Same with Craw. These guys are so dam talanted but the high pressure of being a human highlight film and the business pressure to get that big contract is not always condusive to winning. Its not their fault either! Its just the way of the world now and the payoff is too great.
TMS
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8/20/2004  9:30 AM
isles just doesn't like the moves Isiah has made since he's been here...he may go overboard with his incessant criticisms of him, but that doesn't mean he is saying he knows better than anyone else on how to build a champion...

there are some people who pretend to know more than others on how to build champions, but other than Jerry West, what other GM's in this league can we really say have done a great job of it over the recent years? does it take signing the most dominant C in the game & trading for the greatest SG since Michael Jordan to build a champion? if so, i wouldn't hold my breath for Jerry West to do it again in Memphis.

Detroit certainly proved last year that there are other ways to build a champion. Maybe Isiah can prove it in his own way? personally, i'm willing to wait & see before i rush to judgement...some fans aren't...that's their prerogative...in the end, none of us really know jack squat because none of us have ever built an NBA champion before...so we can argue all day long on this topic, but none of us will be more right than the other...it's all just opinions, bottomline.
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Bonn1997
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8/20/2004  9:51 AM
Posted by TMS:

isles just doesn't like the moves Isiah has made since he's been here...he may go overboard with his incessant criticisms of him, but that doesn't mean he is saying he knows better than anyone else on how to build a champion...

there are some people who pretend to know more than others on how to build champions, but other than Jerry West, what other GM's in this league can we really say have done a great job of it over the recent years? does it take signing the most dominant C in the game & trading for the greatest SG since Michael Jordan to build a champion? if so, i wouldn't hold my breath for Jerry West to do it again in Memphis.

Detroit certainly proved last year that there are other ways to build a champion. Maybe Isiah can prove it in his own way? personally, i'm willing to wait & see before i rush to judgement...some fans aren't...that's their prerogative...in the end, none of us really know jack squat because none of us have ever built an NBA champion before...so we can argue all day long on this topic, but none of us will be more right than the other...it's all just opinions, bottomline.
Some opionions are better supported than others. Clearly the plan of rebuilding through the draft and free agency has worked well for a few teams and been a miserable failure for most teams. With that history in mind, I see nothing wrong with asking Isles to be more specific than just saying he'd clear cap room and rebuild through the draft and free agency.
islesfan
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8/20/2004  10:31 AM
btw, the intent of starting this thread wasn't a place for people to come and bash you.

Wow, here's a shock, that's exactly what more than a few people have chosen to do and you seem to appreciate it since you're laughing along with them. So much for your intentions.

Tell me again why I should try to have any type of serious discussion on this thread anymore?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Nalod
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8/20/2004  10:39 AM
I don't have a problem with other opinions, so Isles is ok by me. IF you don't agree, let is slide.

As Rome used to say, "have a take, but don' Suck!".

I think this forum was taunting, but one don't have to take the bait.

THere are two sides to many stories and most are well presented.
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