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I guess we aren't bringing back DerMarr now???
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gunsnewing
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8/19/2004  3:34 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bizzy211:

Should we agree that DeMarr might be better to have than Shandon, or is Shandon's defense worth it over holding on to DeMarr?

Honestly, I'd keep Shandon. He has a role on this team, as a defensive specialist. Granted that's all he does, but he does it well. What does DerMarr do that our other guard/forwards don't? Tim Thomas, Jamal Crawford and Allan Houston are all clearly more talented in most aspects.

Why so Shandon could make only lucky defensive player per game and turn the ball over 8 times, fail to cover his man, shoot 0-7!
AUTOADVERT
islesfan
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8/19/2004  3:34 PM
Fishmike: Bonn, go get your Knicks sweatshirt.

Bonn: Why, are we going somewhere or am I cold?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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8/19/2004  3:35 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Here's another. Isiah gave up most of his tradeable assets in the Marbury deal so when it came down to this offseason he didn't have enough left to get Dampier, the frontline help that we desperately needed. Econ-102 Opportunity Cost.


Isiah could have had Dampier if he REALLY wanted him, but obviously the cost was too high...2 1st round picks & a couple of ending contracts for Dampier & Eschmeyer's contract & you, me & others would have been killing that deal...so what's the point in discussing "woulda, coulda & shoulda's" on that topic? Mullin refused a very fair offer of KT & Nazr for Dampier & Eschmeyer & opted for the cap space & draft picks...let the Mavs have Dampier if they want him so badly...there will be other bigmen available in the future...Dampier isn't some superstar player that this organization absolutely HAD to have.

[Edited by - TMS on 08/19/2004 15:36:01]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Andrew
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8/19/2004  3:37 PM
Posted by TMS:

Isiah could have had Dampier if he REALLY wanted him, but obviously the cost was too high...2 1st round picks & a couple of ending contracts for Dampier & Eschmeyer's contract & you, me & others would have been killing that deal...

Not to mention the excessive salary that he will be receiving well past his prime.
PURE KNICKS LOVE
tkf
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8/19/2004  3:37 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I thought Dermarr was this great young talent that was the equivalent of our missing 1st rd pick this year? Wasn't signing him supposed to be some kind of coup for the Knicks last year and I guess now he's not that good? I guess Ariza replaces Dermarr as the Flavor of the Month around here.

actually dremarr could still be a very good player, if we had the roster spots I am sure he would still be here, but it is clear that right now even at 5 years his junior, Ariza is the better player, flavor of the month? not really, it is just a numbers game, I like both guys....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/19/2004  3:50 PM
It's funny how someone would refer to dampier as an opportunity cost..LOL. lets see, oppourtunity cost is the next best choice.. so IT took the best choice and that was Marbury and Crawford, now any good business man and GM would take the BEST choice... For instance the opportunity cost of investing my money Microsoft would be buying ENRON stock a few years ago... I like my chances with microsoft....

The knicks gave up what chips in getting marbury, a first round pick this year, Lampe and milos? I don't think that would have been enough to get dampier anyway.. The warriors wanted expiring deals, plus marbury was the better choice, come on man.... It is easy to find fault, proving fault is another story..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  4:08 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Fishmike: Bonn, go get your Knicks sweatshirt.

Bonn: Why, are we going somewhere or am I cold?

Islesfan: I just got this new 24 pack of Isiah hatorade.

Scott Layden: That's great, but I'm to sad to drink. I have no job and it's so depressing to see how quickly the Knicks went from a lottery team to a good young team.

Islefan: Just add a lot of vodka to the hatorade and all the depression goes away
fishmike
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8/19/2004  4:36 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

he was a steal. We got him for absolutely nothing. Thats = steal.

you ever take economics?

Sure, Knicks fans demanded something to make themselves feel better after the Layden era ended and Isiah supplied all the Kool-Aid they could drink. Econ-101 Supply and Demand.

Here's another. Isiah gave up most of his tradeable assets in the Marbury deal so when it came down to this offseason he didn't have enough left to get Dampier, the frontline help that we desperately needed. Econ-102 Opportunity Cost.


Werent you saying a week ago that Isiah was on the verge for once again overpaying for a career underachiever in Dampier? Now that we dont have him its his fault for missed opportunities.

This is the same thing when you are harping that expiring contracts wont get us crap, yet he overpaid for Crawford by using our most valuable trade pieces.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  4:38 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

he was a steal. We got him for absolutely nothing. Thats = steal.

you ever take economics?

Sure, Knicks fans demanded something to make themselves feel better after the Layden era ended and Isiah supplied all the Kool-Aid they could drink. Econ-101 Supply and Demand.

Here's another. Isiah gave up most of his tradeable assets in the Marbury deal so when it came down to this offseason he didn't have enough left to get Dampier, the frontline help that we desperately needed. Econ-102 Opportunity Cost.


Werent you saying a week ago that Isiah was on the verge for once again overpaying for a career underachiever in Dampier? Now that we dont have him its his fault for missed opportunities.
Who cares about being consistent so long as you can criticize whatever Isiah does?
islesfan
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8/19/2004  4:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Werent you saying a week ago that Isiah was on the verge for once again overpaying for a career underachiever in Dampier? Now that we dont have him its his fault for missed opportunities.

This is the same thing when you are harping that expiring contracts wont get us crap, yet he overpaid for Crawford by using our most valuable trade pieces.

No, I said that I wanted to sign Dampier to a 1 yr deal using the MLE and you said that a 2 year deal made more sense and I agreed with you completely. Remember? My reservation in acquiring Dampier was only if we traded for him and gave him a huge long term deal.

I never said that expiring contracts won't get us "crap", I said that with nothing else to offer they will only get you flawed players, like Crawford, whose current teams don't want anymore. I think we did overpay by giving Crawford a long term deal for $8mm a year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Solace
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8/19/2004  4:49 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bizzy211:

Should we agree that DeMarr might be better to have than Shandon, or is Shandon's defense worth it over holding on to DeMarr?

Honestly, I'd keep Shandon. He has a role on this team, as a defensive specialist. Granted that's all he does, but he does it well. What does DerMarr do that our other guard/forwards don't? Tim Thomas, Jamal Crawford and Allan Houston are all clearly more talented in most aspects.

Why so Shandon could make only lucky defensive player per game and turn the ball over 8 times, fail to cover his man, shoot 0-7!

Again, he's a defensive specialist. I don't want him playing big minutes. But for the 8-15 mpg he might get on *some* nights, he's more of an asset than DerMarr. What other 2-3 do we have that can play defense? H20 is definitely below average with his knees as-is. Crawford's defense is suspect, Tim Thomas's defense is a little below-average, as well. Our only other good defensive swingman is Penny, but Shandon's defense is probably a little better than Penny's. In this one single aspect, we need defense. What does DerMarr really add? We already have Ariza who seems to do everything DerMarr can do better than DerMarr does it. I liked DerMarr last year, but there simply is no place for him in this team. If we could dump Shandon's salary, great, but we can't, so we might as well make use of him.
...
fishmike
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8/19/2004  4:53 PM
Ok... so Isiah is ridiculous and stupid (Joe Beningo even said so) for suggesting that a player would want to come and play here for half their market value, yet you would only be happy if Dampier came and played here for half his market value?

Quick! Use the Chewbacca defense!

Seriously... you need to get over this. For your own health. Whatver happened between you and Isiah is in the past.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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8/19/2004  5:05 PM
That's 2 completely different things. I think for a player, whose only solid year came when he was in a contract year, it would be smart to sign him for no more than a 2 year deal. The money and whether or not they sign for FMV is completely separate. $5mm just happened to be all we had to offer since we're so hopelessly over the salary cap. I wouldn't have minded giving him a 2 year deal for $8-10mm if we could have but we couldn't.

Now a GM of a team who comes out to the press and tries to spin his inability to upgrade a glaring need into "Well at least it's a positive that premier players want to come here for much less than market value" is just asinine when no premier free agent has actually done that. Like you said yourself, it's dumb until it happens and it hasn't happened yet.

I don't know what this Chewbacca defense is but I'm pretty sure I don't need it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
KNICKSdom
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8/19/2004  10:01 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bizzy211:

Should we agree that DeMarr might be better to have than Shandon, or is Shandon's defense worth it over holding on to DeMarr?

Honestly, I'd keep Shandon. He has a role on this team, as a defensive specialist. Granted that's all he does, but he does it well. What does DerMarr do that our other guard/forwards don't? Tim Thomas, Jamal Crawford and Allan Houston are all clearly more talented in most aspects.

Why so Shandon could make only lucky defensive player per game and turn the ball over 8 times, fail to cover his man, shoot 0-7!

Again, he's a defensive specialist. I don't want him playing big minutes. But for the 8-15 mpg he might get on *some* nights, he's more of an asset than DerMarr. What other 2-3 do we have that can play defense? H20 is definitely below average with his knees as-is. Crawford's defense is suspect, Tim Thomas's defense is a little below-average, as well. Our only other good defensive swingman is Penny, but Shandon's defense is probably a little better than Penny's. In this one single aspect, we need defense. What does DerMarr really add? We already have Ariza who seems to do everything DerMarr can do better than DerMarr does it. I liked DerMarr last year, but there simply is no place for him in this team. If we could dump Shandon's salary, great, but we can't, so we might as well make use of him.
There is no use for Shandon now. I expect him to be the last player on the bench if not on IR. I was gonna grow to like him when he first came to NY but right now it lefta bad taste in my mouth. Screw Shandon all the way, he is useless. I like all the players we have except him.
Knicks are happening and have a Unicorn.
KNICKSdom
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8/19/2004  10:07 PM
Islesfan, do you think Isiah sells the Knicks good to the media and nation?
Knicks are happening and have a Unicorn.
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  10:23 PM
Posted by KNICKSdom:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Bizzy211:

Should we agree that DeMarr might be better to have than Shandon, or is Shandon's defense worth it over holding on to DeMarr?

Honestly, I'd keep Shandon. He has a role on this team, as a defensive specialist. Granted that's all he does, but he does it well. What does DerMarr do that our other guard/forwards don't? Tim Thomas, Jamal Crawford and Allan Houston are all clearly more talented in most aspects.

Why so Shandon could make only lucky defensive player per game and turn the ball over 8 times, fail to cover his man, shoot 0-7!

Again, he's a defensive specialist. I don't want him playing big minutes. But for the 8-15 mpg he might get on *some* nights, he's more of an asset than DerMarr. What other 2-3 do we have that can play defense? H20 is definitely below average with his knees as-is. Crawford's defense is suspect, Tim Thomas's defense is a little below-average, as well. Our only other good defensive swingman is Penny, but Shandon's defense is probably a little better than Penny's. In this one single aspect, we need defense. What does DerMarr really add? We already have Ariza who seems to do everything DerMarr can do better than DerMarr does it. I liked DerMarr last year, but there simply is no place for him in this team. If we could dump Shandon's salary, great, but we can't, so we might as well make use of him.
There is no use for Shandon now. I expect him to be the last player on the bench if not on IR. I was gonna grow to like him when he first came to NY but right now it lefta bad taste in my mouth. Screw Shandon all the way, he is useless. I like all the players we have except him.
I don't think there's a big difference between Shandon and Penny on defense
technomaster
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8/20/2004  3:47 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I think the thought process on Dermaar is Isiah is making a conscious effort to fill the roster out with young players or prospects that still have upside, unlike the last guy.

The Knicks were very high on Ariza and supposedly tried to trade into the late first round to get him.

Actually we are all just homers and whoever Isiah signs must be totally awesome dude, because Zeke's the man. Dont be a hater.

The last guy gave us Lampe, Sweetney, Vujanic, Frank Williams, and Vranes... come on. :) I'm actually surprised that IT doesn't want to trade Sweetney--- after all, he's not part of his legacy.

At the very least--- he gave us some tradable commodities. IT had the opportunity to take advantage of them.

Back to DerMarr...I wonder if the other guy... from Temple (Hawkins?) will get an invite to pre-season camp over DerMarr. He had some brilliant moments in summer league play--- showed he was an NBA caliber scorer at the very least.

[Edited by - technomaster on 08/20/2004 03:51:22]
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bonn1997
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8/20/2004  3:51 AM
Posted by technomaster:
Posted by fishmike:

I think the thought process on Dermaar is Isiah is making a conscious effort to fill the roster out with young players or prospects that still have upside, unlike the last guy.

The Knicks were very high on Ariza and supposedly tried to trade into the late first round to get him.

Actually we are all just homers and whoever Isiah signs must be totally awesome dude, because Zeke's the man. Dont be a hater.

The last guy gave us Lampe, Sweetney, Vujanic, Frank Williams, and Vranes... come on. :) I'm actually surprised that IT doesn't want to trade Sweetney--- after all, he's not part of his legacy...

I wonder if the other guy... from Temple (Hawkins?) will get an invite to pre-season camp over DerMarr. He had some brilliant moments in summer league play--- showed he was an NBA caliber scorer at the very least.
I still wouldn't be surprised if Barrett and not DerMarr got the final roster spot
technomaster
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8/20/2004  3:55 AM
Yeah. The coaching staff really kept piling on the praise for Barrett.
The only problem is that Moochie is still on the team. Still, FW's departure opened the door a crack...

BTW, what's the deal w/ Penny? He has a player option on his contract at the end of this season-- he'd be REALLY silly not to take it. It seems like he'll be a Knick at least until the end of next season.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
diderotn
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8/20/2004  8:57 AM
yOu have to be insane only to suggest keeping Shandon over Demarr.




Honestly, I'd keep Shandon. He has a role on this team, as a defensive specialist. Granted that's all he does, but he does it well. What does DerMarr do that our other guard/forwards don't? Tim Thomas, Jamal Crawford and Allan Houston are all clearly more talented in most aspects.
The true Knickabocker..........
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I guess we aren't bringing back DerMarr now???
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