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Look at the complexity of this deal and how much trouble we would have coming close
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BRIGGS
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8/18/2004  12:24 PM
Laettner is being traded for Dampier.
Najera is being traded for a first rounder and the trade exception that Golden State got last year from the Jamison trade
Eschmeyer is being given to the Mavericks, and Dallas gives them a first rounder and Dallas's trade exception from the Boston trade
Dickau will be had for a first rounder and the trade exception Dallas got in the trade for Terry.

+3MM in cash

RIP Crushalot😞
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TMS
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8/18/2004  12:34 PM
somehow i get the feeling had the Knicks made that trade w/the Warriors to get Dampier, that you'd be going off about how they gave up way too much for him & that they mortgaged their future because of it...the Knicks made a similar type deal w/the Suns to get Marbury too, didn't they? (cap relief, young players & picks)...isn't Marbury a much more talented & marketable player than Dampier, & younger besides?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
knicks1248
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8/18/2004  12:57 PM
I think IT recognized the cost in getting Damps, and really thought the only logical way in getting him would have been for the MLE. Which IMO is all he's worth.

ES
fishmike
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8/18/2004  1:04 PM
while the Mavs gave up considerable future assets to get Dampier they are clearly in a position to not only win now, but possibly win it all now. Especially w/ Shaq gone getting Dampier gives them a piece that has to have them as favored as anyone to win the West. The thing is for the Mavs Dampier was the last piece, for us Marbury was the first piece.
The jury is still out on whether or not we will have enough assets in the next 2 years to surround Marbury w/ a championship caliber cast.

I still like the Marbury trade from an objective point of view. As a fan I love it... having watching Ward and Eisley literally hand the ball to Spree or Houston for 3 years it instantly got me excited about watching hoops again.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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8/18/2004  1:08 PM
fish, how much better has dampier made the mavs? Nash was a huge part of that offense and although terry is a good scorer and they have a good rookie in harris, I think their backcourt has taken a big step backwards, daniels and howard will give them some punch but they are not scaring anyone... I think the nuggets are better, spurs for sure, if pedja stays the kings, and Houston for sure, I don't see the mavs beating Houston...

[Edited by - tkf on 08/18/2004 13:12:18]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/18/2004  1:11 PM
This is the problem I have with dampier, he does what a lot of bums do. they get up to play guys like shaq, but won't or can't get up for the regular guys, dampier will get outplayed by guys like ratliff and gasol, certainly good players but not stars...This happens too often and is the reason why his teams never excell..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
bernard
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8/18/2004  1:12 PM
I'm glad that we're not trying to mount a competitive deal (I hope we're not). It would be too much for us to give for Damps, who, IMO, is too big a risk for the potential upside he'd bring us. Does anyone think he'll be better than he was last year? Not too many, I'd imagine. And he may regress to what he's been his whole career prior.

Even if he plays as well as last year, Knicks still aren't a championship team with him. Dallas sees a chance to go for the ring, so they're in a different position. I'm hoping we'll get a stronger center w/ our expiring contracts and whatever else it takes next year, when we'll still be young enough (and Shaq will be 1 year older) to make a serious run. Damps for MLE or players not core to our team would have been a good deal, but, obviously, Mullin wasn't biting. Got to give him some credit, he got a very good deal by playing an effective game of chicken.
Nalod
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8/18/2004  1:16 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Laettner is being traded for Dampier.
Najera is being traded for a first rounder and the trade exception that Golden State got last year from the Jamison trade
Eschmeyer is being given to the Mavericks, and Dallas gives them a first rounder and Dallas's trade exception from the Boston trade
Dickau will be had for a first rounder and the trade exception Dallas got in the trade for Terry.

+3MM in cash

In the end we can thank Isiah for making a "Laydog" type of pie in the sky rule. GS was not looking for anything we had no matter how much Isiah wanted to do a deal. Nor Damps agent!

He kept the knicks in the papers and let Bulls know we had other irons in the fire. Mullin kept to his goal and got what he wanted.

I really don't think we were that close in this one. We got used, but we also got lots of free publicity. For 6 weeks it kept the papers full of stories, which promote the product cablevision calls the knicks.
Rich
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8/18/2004  5:18 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Laettner is being traded for Dampier.
Najera is being traded for a first rounder and the trade exception that Golden State got last year from the Jamison trade
Eschmeyer is being given to the Mavericks, and Dallas gives them a first rounder and Dallas's trade exception from the Boston trade
Dickau will be had for a first rounder and the trade exception Dallas got in the trade for Terry.

+3MM in cash

In the end we can thank Isiah for making a "Laydog" type of pie in the sky rule. GS was not looking for anything we had no matter how much Isiah wanted to do a deal. Nor Damps agent!

He kept the knicks in the papers and let Bulls know we had other irons in the fire. Mullin kept to his goal and got what he wanted.

I really don't think we were that close in this one. We got used, but we also got lots of free publicity. For 6 weeks it kept the papers full of stories, which promote the product cablevision calls the knicks.

We can also thank Layden for putting Isiah in a position in which he has virtually no flexibility to make deals.
crzymdups
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8/18/2004  8:29 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Laettner is being traded for Dampier.
Najera is being traded for a first rounder and the trade exception that Golden State got last year from the Jamison trade
Eschmeyer is being given to the Mavericks, and Dallas gives them a first rounder and Dallas's trade exception from the Boston trade
Dickau will be had for a first rounder and the trade exception Dallas got in the trade for Terry.

+3MM in cash

In the end we can thank Isiah for making a "Laydog" type of pie in the sky rule. GS was not looking for anything we had no matter how much Isiah wanted to do a deal. Nor Damps agent!

He kept the knicks in the papers and let Bulls know we had other irons in the fire. Mullin kept to his goal and got what he wanted.

I really don't think we were that close in this one. We got used, but we also got lots of free publicity. For 6 weeks it kept the papers full of stories, which promote the product cablevision calls the knicks.

We can also thank Layden for putting Isiah in a position in which he has virtually no flexibility to make deals.


you guys are looking at this all wrong. look at the positive:
a) if we traded for Damps, we'd have a two year window at most. We wouldn't be a favorite to win it all or even beat Detroit. We'd win a few divsion titles and be done and need a new center anyway.

b) Damps being rumored to NYK incesantly significantly rose the cost DAL had to pay. Would they ever have had to cough up two picks if we didn't elevate the Damps sweepstakes to a fever pitch.
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Rich
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8/18/2004  11:28 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Laettner is being traded for Dampier.
Najera is being traded for a first rounder and the trade exception that Golden State got last year from the Jamison trade
Eschmeyer is being given to the Mavericks, and Dallas gives them a first rounder and Dallas's trade exception from the Boston trade
Dickau will be had for a first rounder and the trade exception Dallas got in the trade for Terry.

+3MM in cash

In the end we can thank Isiah for making a "Laydog" type of pie in the sky rule. GS was not looking for anything we had no matter how much Isiah wanted to do a deal. Nor Damps agent!

He kept the knicks in the papers and let Bulls know we had other irons in the fire. Mullin kept to his goal and got what he wanted.

I really don't think we were that close in this one. We got used, but we also got lots of free publicity. For 6 weeks it kept the papers full of stories, which promote the product cablevision calls the knicks.

We can also thank Layden for putting Isiah in a position in which he has virtually no flexibility to make deals.


you guys are looking at this all wrong. look at the positive:
a) if we traded for Damps, we'd have a two year window at most. We wouldn't be a favorite to win it all or even beat Detroit. We'd win a few divsion titles and be done and need a new center anyway.

b) Damps being rumored to NYK incesantly significantly rose the cost DAL had to pay. Would they ever have had to cough up two picks if we didn't elevate the Damps sweepstakes to a fever pitch.

I didn't want to give Dampier a $60 million contract in a sign and trade either. My point was more general: I was referring to the inability to go after any big free agent because of the mess Layden left behind.

I have a simple test for determining whether a contract a player is offered is reasonable: Can it be traded. If not, it shouldn't be offered.
NineMike2Whiskey
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8/18/2004  11:50 PM
Come to think of it, despite how New York is desirable for so many player the last time any free agent of note came to the Knicks was H20 from Detroit and well there was also FatSpoon :) Goes to show how far back since the Knicks were truly under the cap.
BRIGGS
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8/18/2004  11:55 PM


I have a simple test for determining whether a contract a player is offered is reasonable: Can it be traded. If not, it shouldn't be offered.
[/quote]


That's impossible because there are to many variables. Last year, the Spurs were beating down doors for Jason Kidd to pay him very close to what he is making now. One year later, things have changed dramatically. I don't think there is a contract in the NBA that doesnt have downside risk because injury problems are part of the sport. Basketball players are like any other commodity, what was hot today could be ice cold a month from now. Impossible to quantify. It's good to have balance, something the Knicks haven't had in awhile.
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  12:32 AM
Posted by NineMike2Whiskey:

Come to think of it, despite how New York is desirable for so many player the last time any free agent of note came to the Knicks was H20 from Detroit and well there was also FatSpoon :) Goes to show how far back since the Knicks were truly under the cap.
Jamal Crawford's not even a "free agent of note"?
Rich
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8/19/2004  1:00 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:


That's impossible because there are to many variables. Last year, the Spurs were beating down doors for Jason Kidd to pay him very close to what he is making now. One year later, things have changed dramatically. I don't think there is a contract in the NBA that doesnt have downside risk because injury problems are part of the sport. Basketball players are like any other commodity, what was hot today could be ice cold a month from now. Impossible to quantify. It's good to have balance, something the Knicks haven't had in awhile.

OK, may be my point was drawn too narrowly, but although market conditions can change with respect to any given player, there are some contracts that are almost untradable from the day they are signed (e.g., Shandon, Houston, etc.), unless a team is willing to accept an equally bad contract in return (e.g., Spoon for Moochie). Those are the contracts I would seek to avoid.

Granted, a player can get injured, and his market value would plummet. I am referring to the situation in which the player's abilities remain constant.

That's why I would have been reluctant to give Dampier $54 million for six years, because the risk that the contract couldn't be traded seemed unnecessarily high at the date of contract formation.
technomaster
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8/19/2004  1:27 AM
Just curious, how is NY a desirable place to play? Each game is under extreme scrutiny--- it's like every game is treated like a playoff game by the media. You have a costly turnover in the closing seconds of a loss, and your photo is on the back page. Bad.

The only thing we have going is that NY has the reputation of overpaying has-been players. And the fact that if you win here, you become part of the city's history.

Granted, I love living in the city, but it's a tough city--- people don't take BS here.

Back to the Mavericks--- losing Nash was a big blow as far as leadership goes, but they've gotten younger and quicker... and they have much more potential to be a good defensive team than ever before in the Cuban era.

Also... maybe losing Nash will actually help Dirk become more of a leader. Watching Nowitzki play in international games is amazing to watch. In spite of being surrounded by the top American players, he clearly was playing at a level higher than anyone else on the floor. I'm still not sure how Stackhouse fits in on the team--- my guess is that he'll be dealt at some point (at least that's their objective)--- or maybe Finley will go for some of Chicago's young talent.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Rich
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8/19/2004  1:36 AM
I think Isiah has made it desirable again, but it's still not as attractive as being on a team that has a legitimate shot at winning a championship.
Look at the complexity of this deal and how much trouble we would have coming close

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