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with Dampier gone... we should take a step backward
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TMS
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8/18/2004  11:30 AM
in all fairness, ATL gave up 2 very talented players in Ratliff & Rahim to get Rasheed...& they got back expiring contracts along w/2 1st round picks for him in the deal that sent him to DET, didn't they? so in the end, they gave up 2 talented players for expiring contracts & draft picks...

& the Crawford deal is a better example of what you can get for just expiring deals (& a young player like Frank)...i don't see why the Knicks can't get a talented young player reaching his prime next year as well if they use their expiring deals & picks, or a young player like Ariza who might show something this season if given the opportunity.

[Edited by - TMS on 08/18/2004 11:31:36]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Kwazimodal
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8/18/2004  11:32 AM
Yes Mcdyess was more important to the Layden Knicks than Ratliff would be to the Thomas Knicks but I dont think he is worth a long term contract,not 6 years.If we signed him to a 3 year deal at most we wouldnt be saddled with his contract if he started breaking down again or just started looking old.Besides,his numbers arent worth a long term contract.He is averaging 7/7 in about 31 mins.Those kind of numbers arent worth a long term deal,not for a 32 yr old IMO.
TMS
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8/18/2004  11:57 AM
i think i agree more w/you Kwazi...while i love Ratliff & what he would bring to this team, signing him to a full MLE at his age does seem a bit much.

Dampier is a year younger & put up allstar numbers last year so he's a different story...signing him to a full MLE would have been a steal...but since Ratliff has had past injury issues recently, i think a 4 year deal at MLE money would be about the most i'd offer him at this point...

that said, i wouldn't b!tch & moan if the Knicks had to overpay by 2 years to get him...but it wouldn't be my ideal scenario, & the risks are there like you said.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MaTT4281
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8/18/2004  12:18 PM
Just curious, Stromile Swift plays some time at the 5 for Memphis right?
Anyway we could offer him a 2 year MLE offer this year. The way I see it, if Memphis doesn't match, we have him for 2 years cheap. But if they do (which I would be counting on), he would be an unrestricted free agent the year that TT's, Penny's, Moochie's, and Nazr's contracts expire. We could make a pretty good offer while still trying to resign Nazr and TT to a reasonable contract.

[Edited by - MaTT4281 on 08/18/2004 12:19:58]
TMS
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8/18/2004  12:21 PM
i don't think you make a move like that w/2 years down the road in your sights unless the player we're talking about here is on a Kobe Bryant, Lebron James or Yao Ming type level...Stromile Swift is a nice player & i'd love to have him, but there's zero chance that the Grizz wouldn't match a 2 year offer, & the Knicks are likely to trade guys like Penny, TT, Moochie & Nazr before their contract expire anyway imho.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
tkf
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8/18/2004  12:33 PM
yea Briggs, you did call this trade and Imade fun of you, so being the stand up man that I am, I am going to apologize, good call, although I think you are nuts 90% of the time, you hit this one on the head, but just think the mavs are giving up 2 future first rounders for this guy and some expiring deals, I wonder if people think they are giving up their future? or overpaying for a 30 year old underachieving center...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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8/18/2004  12:56 PM
I like ratliff but his knees worry me, i like the direction of adding young players like JC, Ariza and developing sweetney, call me crazy but Kwame Brown would be a player I would look at also..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
islesfan
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8/18/2004  1:20 PM
We have a boat load of expiring deals, but what we need are draft picks and or young players to go with them.

See, even Fish knows this.

We have our own #1 which could be a valuable piece. I would like to add a young player, but there will be major pressure to get this group a legit athletic center.

I don't know if you mean our pick is valuable to use in the draft or as a trade asset but since we traded this years pick we aren't allowed to trade next years.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/18/2004  1:48 PM
"I don't know if you mean our pick is valuable to use in the draft or as a trade asset but since we traded this years pick we aren't allowed to trade next years."

We can. We cant trade the pick, the CBA doesnt permit you to trade #1 picks in back to back years. What you can do however (which several teams do) is draft a player with your pick, then trade the rights to that player before they are signed. This is perfectly OK. The back to back rule is to prevent Layden from trading away 7 consecutive first rounders to get Greg Ostertag.

We could draft Bob with the 20th pick in the first round. Then trade Bob's rights, our 2006 #1 (Bob was our 2005), cash and Nazr's expiring deal in a sign and trade for Diop (the kid from Clev.)

This is totally hypothetical (of course). Just an example of something for next year.

I dont know what kind of big fish will be out there next year to be honest... but getting just one extra pick would allow us to add a minimum level player like Briggs is talking about and still make the Bob trade.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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8/18/2004  3:01 PM
Good point. It's not quite as good as being able to trade a draft pick outright but it can be used that way. There's a lot more limitations to doing that but it can be done.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/18/2004  3:26 PM
Posted by TMS:

in all fairness, ATL gave up 2 very talented players in Ratliff & Rahim to get Rasheed
[Edited by - TMS on 08/18/2004 11:31:36]
We'd be giving up talented players too! Some combination of Tim Thomas, Nazy, Penny Hardaway, and Mike Sweetney. (If and only if we were getting a great player in return, would I include Mike Sweetney's expiring contract.) Moochie is the only one with an expiring contract who wouldn't really be a valuable player on the team he'd be traded to.
TMS
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8/18/2004  3:56 PM
yeah, but when you said "If you want to get a good player at the level of Rasheed or Crawford, we've seen that expiring contracts are all you need." i took that as you meaning that any old expiring contracts will do, but that wasn't exactly the case in the Rasheed deal as it might have been in the Crawford deal.

i agree that TT, Nazr, Penny & Sweetney are talented players & should have some good value next year.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
RonRon
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8/18/2004  4:38 PM
Had we gotten Dampier (at least on paper) we could be a 50 win plus team and at least competed for the ECF.
I dont see this as realistic right now. I'm still happy with the direction of the team. We got the all star PG and put some athletic scoring wing players around him in TT and Crawford. You have 3 guys that are young, can all handle the ball, are athletic and highly skilled.

The front court is improved. Nazr, KT, Sweetney, JYD and Baker is a considerable upgrade from the start of last year, but its clearly lacking.

I think at this point we should do everything we can to maximize out assets for next off season. We have a boat load of expiring deals, but what we need are draft picks and or young players to go with them.

Right now if I can deal KT or Nazr for any team with cap space that will give me a future #1 I'm doing it. Atl, Cha, LAC, Utah whoever.

I know the pickings are slim but I think this is critical for next year. We have our own #1 which could be a valuable piece. I would like to add a young player, but there will be major pressure to get this group a legit athletic center.

A couple to look for next year are Diop, Dalembert, Brandon Haywood and Ratliff.

Ratliff is an UFA and at 32 a 6 year MLE offer might actually do it. He's the perfect fit to me. Diop and Dalembert will be more tricky because they are RFAs. The option will be to overpay them, trade and expiring deal, include our #1 (we cant trade the pick, but we can trade the rights of the player we draft) and take back a bad deal. Basicly the same thing we just did w/ Crawford. Penny & Nazr are the two guys to use for this. Package them w/ the draft rights to your selection and take back a bad deal. Its a decent package.

Then your looking at something like this:
Marbury 28
Crawford 25, Houston 34
TT 28, Ariza 21
Sweetney 23, JYD 32
Ratliff 32, Dalembert 23



you are not realistic at all. Yeah, ratliff and dalembert are great long shots from coming to new york. Ratliff must take a paycut to goto the knicks. Im sure he cant wait for his free agency courtship after seeing the deals made for bigmen this summer.

Dalemberat is a very athletic stud, i dont see how philly will even let him go.
TLover
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8/18/2004  6:26 PM
I think if we can find a way to get Kwame Brown & Brendan Haywood from the Wiz, we do it. The problem is I don't think a package of Sweetney and Kurt, will do it. Even if we find a way to add in Naz the Wiz may not do it.

By the way, getting Lebron as a free agent in 2006 is not too bad either.
Bonn1997
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8/18/2004  7:07 PM
I wouldn't give up Sweetney for Kwame. I would give up any Knicks for Kwame other than Marbury, Crawford, TT, or Sweetney, though. (And if that means Washington won't do a trade, then fine; they can keep him.)
TLover
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8/18/2004  7:57 PM
I think Kwame could turn into another Jermaine O'neal, a guy with alot of talent who just needed time to mature. I don't think the Wiz will trade him because he is ready to break out.
joec32033
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8/19/2004  5:41 AM
Posted by Kwazimodal:

I see your point about Ratliff and I think he would shore up the front line,Im not so sure he could give us 3-4 good years.Maybe Im still worried about another Dice situation.A 3 year contract would be the way to go IMO.BTW here are some of the FAs next season and after that.Lots of young,healthy big men to choose from...

Player Team Type
Jason Collier Atlanta Free Agent
Tony Delk Atlanta Free Agent
Al Harrington Atlanta Free Agent
Walter McCarty Boston Free Agent
Jiri Welsch Boston Restricted Free Agent
Primoz Brezec Charlotte Free Agent
Melvin Ely Charlotte Restricted Free Agent
Bernard Robinson Charlotte Free Agent
Gerald Wallace Charlotte Free Agent
Tyson Chandler Chicago Free Agent
Eddy Curry Chicago Free Agent
Antonio Davis Chicago Free Agent
Chris Jefferies Chicago Restricted Free Agent
Dikembe Mutombo Chicago Free Agent
Eddie Robinson Chicago Free Agent
Frank Williams Chicago Restricted Free Agent
DeSagana Diop Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Drew Gooden Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Robert Traylor Cleveland Free Agent
Dajuan Wagner Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga Dallas Free Agent
Jason Terry Dallas Free Agent
Francisco Elson Denver Free Agent
Nene Hilario Denver Restricted Free Agent
Voshon Lenard Denver Free Agent
Nikoloz Tskitishvili Denver Restricted Free Agent
Derrick Coleman Detroit Free Agent
Ronald Dupree Detroit Free Agent
Lindsey Hunter Detroit Free Agent
TayShaun Prince Detroit Restricted Free Agent
Ben Wallace Detroit Free Agent
Calbert Cheaney Golden State Free Agent
Speedy Claxton Golden State Free Agent
Dan Dickau Golden State Restricted Free Agent
Mike Dunleavy Golden State Restricted Free Agent
Popeye Jones Golden State Free Agent
Troy Murphy Golden State Free Agent
Jason Richardson Golden State Free Agent
Clifford Robinson Golden State Free Agent
Jimmy Jackson Houston Free Agent
Yao Ming Houston Restricted Free Agent
Eric Piatkowski Houston Free Agent
Clarence Weatherspoon Houston Free Agent
Eddie Gill Indiana Free Agent
Fred Jones Indiana Restricted Free Agent
Reggie Miller Indiana Free Agent
Scot Pollard Indiana Free Agent
Jamaal Tinsley Indiana Free Agent
Lionel Chalmers L.A. Clippers Free Agent
Mamadou N'Diaye L.A. Clippers Free Agent
Chris Wilcox L.A. Clippers Restricted Free Agent
Chucky Atkins L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Caron Butler L.A. Lakers Restricted Free Agent
Vlade Divac L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Devean George L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Jumaine Jones L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Stanislav Medvedenko L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Kareem Rush L.A. Lakers Restricted Free Agent
Antonio Burks Memphis Free Agent
Andre Emmett Memphis Free Agent
Pau Gasol Memphis Free Agent
Ryan Humphrey Memphis Restricted Free Agent
Bonzi Wells Memphis Free Agent
Lorenzen Wright Memphis Free Agent
Rasual Butler Miami Free Agent
Keyon Dooling Miami Free Agent
Damon Jones Miami Free Agent
Shaquille O'Neal Miami Free Agent
Wesley Person Miami Free Agent
Marcus Haislip Milwaukee Restricted Free Agent
Michael Redd Milwaukee Free Agent
Keith Van Horn Milwaukee Free Agent
Sam Cassell Minnesota Free Agent
Fred Hoiberg Minnesota Free Agent
Michael Olowokandi Minnesota Free Agent
Jason Collins New Jersey Free Agent
Kyle Davis New Jersey Free Agent
Ron Mercer New Jersey Free Agent
Aaron Williams New Jersey Free Agent
Chris Andersen New Orleans Free Agent
George Lynch New Orleans Free Agent
Jamal Mashburn New Orleans Free Agent
David Wesley New Orleans Free Agent
Trevor Azia New York Free Agent
Anfernee Hardaway New York Free Agent
Nazr Mohammed New York Free Agent
Tim Thomas New York Free Agent
Tony Battie Orlando Free Agent
Kelvin Cato Orlando Free Agent
Mario Kasun Orlando Free Agent
Cuttino Mobley Orlando Free Agent
Kedrick Brown Philadelphia Free Agent
Samuel Dalembert Philadelphia Free Agent
John Salmons Philadelphia Restricted Free Agent
Casey Jacobsen Phoenix Restricted Free Agent
Joe Johnson Phoenix Free Agent
Amare Stoudemire Phoenix Restricted Free Agent
Jake Voskuhl Phoenix Free Agent
Jackson Vroman Phoenix Free Agent
Zach Randolph Portland Free Agent
Nick Van Exel Portland Free Agent
Qyntel Woods Portland Restricted Free Agent
Doug Christie Sacramento Free Agent
Ricky Minard Sacramento Free Agent
Greg Ostertag Sacramento Free Agent
Darius Songaila Sacramento Free Agent
Robert Horry San Antonio Free Agent
Tony Parker San Antonio Free Agent
Romain Sato San Antonio Free Agent
Antonio Daniels Seattle Free Agent
Vladimir Radmanovic Seattle Free Agent
Lamond Murray Toronto Free Agent
Pape Sow Toronto Free Agent
Curtis Borchardt Utah Restricted Free Agent
Jarron Collins Utah Free Agent
Matt Harpring Utah Free Agent
Andrei Kirilenko Utah Free Agent
Raul Lopez Utah Restricted Free Agent
Kwame Brown Washington Free Agent
Juan Dixon Washington Restricted Free Agent
Brendan Haywood Washington Free Agent
Jared Jeffries Washington Restricted Free Agent

I'd be happy with any combination of these guys....
~You can't run from who you are.~
Bonn1997
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8/19/2004  8:11 AM
I forgot about N'Diaye; I was impressed with him in the one summer league game I saw him playing in. For a small contract, he'd be a good addition. If (and only if) doctors feel Keon Clark's ankle is fully healed, I'd rather have Keon, though.
s3231
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8/19/2004  9:48 AM
I think in the situation we are in we will not be big players in the free agent market for a number of years. So, IMO the way to make this team a contender in a couple of years is to get as many tradeable assets as you can. Keon Clark would be a nice addition to this team, however, he is not going to be the guy that puts us over the top. So if I was Zeke I would be trying to get a player like a Rodney White or a Marcus Fizer. Do we really need any of them? No but either one of them could be a nice trading asset to pair up with our expiring contracts next year. Of course the problem would be finding minutes for a guy like White on our team. But that is a good problem to have.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
s3231
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8/19/2004  9:54 AM
Plus, if there is any way we can get a first round pick for Kurt, we should definitely do it. I'm not crazy about starting Sweetney with no true Center next to him, but he is our lottery pick and we need him to get the minutes to grow.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
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with Dampier gone... we should take a step backward
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