knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Metrics say Harden is as bad a defender as Melo. But the Rockets built a team to Harden's strengths and have players like Beverly to compensate for his weaknesses. It's called building a team.

The Knicks were essentially built like Westbrook's OKC Thunder team - and you could make a strong argument that the Thunder roster outside Westbrook is miles better than a Knicks roster outside Melo.

And yet guys here KEEP blaming Melo like taking him off the team is some sort of solution. The problem is the guy who built the team. Maybe he's better at rebuilding through the draft than building a team through trades and free agency. Let's hope so.

Good lord, I can't wait for Melo to be gone, if only to see who the next scapegoat is. It's so ****ing tired at this point. Yes, Melo should be gone this summer. What's next? God only knows. If you have a lot of optimism about where Phil goes from here in spite of how he's handled the Melo situation, the KP developing situation, free agency, trades, the coaching situation, the media... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I think we could make a competitive offer on.

At this point Melo can't carry a team. Period. He was really good in 2012-13 and 2013-14, ages 28 and 29. Injured half the year in 2014-15, DadMelo 2015-16 and shell of self in 2016-17.

Harden is just about 28 and may have 2-3 years at this level. Maybe.

Has there been a team that is built on a player who is a super star at one end of the court but a minus at the other? You may have a 2-3 year window with that player and every other player around him has to be a defensive specialist. Iverson needed Defensive player of the year and 3-4 other high level defensive players just to make up for him. Made it to finals once but otherwise not sustainable.

Can Harden and Westbrook carry their respective teams? They just played each other and Westbrook out first round. It'll be interesting to see if Harden can go further than next round.

Personally, I'd rather have a team concept like Utah than either OKC or Houston.

Utah sure looks good don't they. Just solid basketball. Making the Clips look silly.

They remind me of the 54 win roster, just way to many 30 yr olds, and a very weak bench, and no blake

Good comparison. There's not much to like about that team at all. I dread the idea of trading Melo there just because there is no return worth taking. I've never been a Rivers fan and I'm not enamored by Blake. IMO, if I were Ballmer I'd start over.

I agree about the clips not having much to give back. But with the NTC that is probably where he ends up. The clips will need to be very creative to get a deal done with the trade kicker. Also, I know there s talk about Melo waiving his trade kicker but there are rules in the cba that prevent that depending on the receiving teams cap situation and salaries going out etc.

We can only hope its a three team trade.

I can't see how you guys can be so optimistic, we have ZERO assets.

WTF are you talking about? Melo is an asset even if we may not see him as a fit here. It's only because of the size of his contract that there will be some assets coming back. Teams will have to send enough back to make it work. A 3 team deal makes the most sense.

Melo is a asset when the team controls his destination, that isn't the case now is it?

Maybe you've forgotten how trades are made in the NBA. Team 1 and team 2 agree to trade one set of assets for another. Team 1 doesn't really want the assets of team 2 so they engage team 3 to trade for those assets and send back to team 1 assets more to the liking of team 1.

Yes, in Melo's case the pool of Team 2 destinations is small but the pool of team 3 destinations makes it bigger.

Capice?

The Knicks built teams with him as the center piece, as the man. Ofcourse the team would be good with him. It was not built around a point guard, or a big. It was built around a wing scorer. And when the wing scorer was out, the team struggled to close games, even though they were competitive in many of the games.

Bottom line is Melo is not a franchise altering player. He is a good player, who should be playing next to a star who is seen as the leader and carrying the team, while Melo focuses on being Melo - a scorer. In Phil's and Melo's defense, this is why they got Rose and Noah. Noah focuses on defense, leadership. Organizes the team there. Rose focuses on being the floor general, leader and being the organizer of the offense.

Unfortunately both Rose and Noah failed to be what we hoped them to be. Noah was injured. Rose is quiet, keeps to himself and is all about making his own plays. The chemistry is just not there with Melo and Rose. Had Noah been able to shore up our D, we are maybe a few points better on D. That's a few wins there. Had Rose been a real point, or played like a real point, again a few wins better. That right there is the difference in our disaster season and us being a 6/7 seed in the East. Even KP says Melo is Melo, he doesn't really be an active vocal leader. No one really showed that, even Hornachek didn't have it.

So it's been a failure. but no need to single out any one person alone. Even if you take Phil's press conference seriously, you will see he never actually blamed Melo for all the losing. He said that the team was unable to win with him, and they were unable to play the way they want to with him. That he would be better off on a contender. How is that wrong or a false statement? Melo will be better off playing with Lebron/Irving or Blake/Paul. That's factual stuff. The Knicks need more active younger better defensive players that will buy in to the system.

All this back and forth is ridiculous. Knicks are rebuilding. They have a great building block in KP. They have another good player in Willy. With the lottery pick, it just makes sense to trade Melo for the future. Keeping Melo will not make the Knicks any better than they were this past season.

Time to move forward, not keep rehashing about the past. We have a few decent pieces to work with in KP, Willy, 7th pick in the draft etc. Lets focus on improving longterm and F the drama.

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

That's why I can't see a team trading for that guy

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

I agree. The Knicks have to hope that there is another gm in the league like that and that he is ok with cap hit and the ntc.

Desperation is a huge factor. Playoff teams almost have no choice but to keep trying to find that missing ingredient!!! They can't just stand pat. There will be teams willing to trade for Melo!

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

I agree. The Knicks have to hope that there is another gm in the league like that and that he is ok with cap hit and the ntc.

Desperation is a huge factor. Playoff teams almost have no choice but to keep trying to find that missing ingredient!!! They can't just stand pat. There will be teams willing to trade for Melo!

there maybe teams that want him that he wants no part of. the only team I really see making a run is Cleveland if they don't win the title, but you would almost certainly have to include willy, because of kp and Noah..The options are so limited

Of course the options are limited but you have to wait and see which teams change their minds! In the end the Knicks don't have to take a bad deal! Phil won't have to just accept a deal that hurts the team! We STILL will be adding drafted players and STILL have Cap Space.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

I agree. The Knicks have to hope that there is another gm in the league like that and that he is ok with cap hit and the ntc.

Desperation is a huge factor. Playoff teams almost have no choice but to keep trying to find that missing ingredient!!! They can't just stand pat. There will be teams willing to trade for Melo!

there maybe teams that want him that he wants no part of. the only team I really see making a run is Cleveland if they don't win the title, but you would almost certainly have to include willy, because of kp and Noah..The options are so limited

Of course the options are limited but you have to wait and see which teams change their minds! In the end the Knicks don't have to take a bad deal! Phil won't have to just accept a deal that hurts the team! We STILL will be adding drafted players and STILL have Cap Space.

Kind of like how Phil waited to get a good deal for Tyson, right? Or Rolo. Or, no one actually.

I've seen decent deals proposed here- but that is not real life.

Real life will probably loook more like our Ewing trade.

I have hope, but little expectation for Phil to pull something off, especially how he has devalued Melo.

I almost hope that the deal Phil brings Dolan for (I hope) approval is so bad Dolan realizes its Phil or Melo and cans Phil.

What a sick feeling rooting for Dolan to do something!

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

I agree. The Knicks have to hope that there is another gm in the league like that and that he is ok with cap hit and the ntc.

Desperation is a huge factor. Playoff teams almost have no choice but to keep trying to find that missing ingredient!!! They can't just stand pat. There will be teams willing to trade for Melo!

there maybe teams that want him that he wants no part of. the only team I really see making a run is Cleveland if they don't win the title, but you would almost certainly have to include willy, because of kp and Noah..The options are so limited

Of course the options are limited but you have to wait and see which teams change their minds! In the end the Knicks don't have to take a bad deal! Phil won't have to just accept a deal that hurts the team! We STILL will be adding drafted players and STILL have Cap Space.

Kind of like how Phil waited to get a good deal for Tyson, right? Or Rolo. Or, no one actually.

Phil passed on deals before but you don't really focus on that! He decided he would accept those deals you listed for his own reasons but rejected others. He's not perfect! He admits he should've gotten Crowder! What you're doing is assuming Phil CAN'T do something in the future because of things in the past and that's not how it works!!! You know that. Phil has made good deals too.

How do we know Phil passed on deals?

We're not privy to anything. We just have rumors, and those usually come from people that have an agenda to get a side of the story out.

I mean, if its true that Phil passed on Rose to Minny for Rubio, I would say that was a huge missed opportunity.

All we can judge Phil on is the deals he has made.

What deals do you think he has made that are good?

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Yes, exactly. You can't take 30% of the payroll off from an already .400 team and expect the team to compete. Also, any GM that thought Melo was worth 30% of the cap probably wouldn't make competent decisions with most of the other 70% of the cap.

I agree. The Knicks have to hope that there is another gm in the league like that and that he is ok with cap hit and the ntc.

Desperation is a huge factor. Playoff teams almost have no choice but to keep trying to find that missing ingredient!!! They can't just stand pat. There will be teams willing to trade for Melo!

there maybe teams that want him that he wants no part of. the only team I really see making a run is Cleveland if they don't win the title, but you would almost certainly have to include willy, because of kp and Noah..The options are so limited

Of course the options are limited but you have to wait and see which teams change their minds! In the end the Knicks don't have to take a bad deal! Phil won't have to just accept a deal that hurts the team! We STILL will be adding drafted players and STILL have Cap Space.

Kind of like how Phil waited to get a good deal for Tyson, right? Or Rolo. Or, no one actually.

Phil passed on deals before but you don't really focus on that! He decided he would accept those deals you listed for his own reasons but rejected others. He's not perfect! He admits he should've gotten Crowder! What you're doing is assuming Phil CAN'T do something in the future because of things in the past and that's not how it works!!! You know that. Phil has made good deals too.

Really?!?

OK, I'll admit he bats around .050 on trades. It's not zero.

That's fine if this is your opinion. None of his deals were blockbusters. This still doesn't mean he CAN'T get any good deals in the future. The small moves will be important too. This is going to be about Draft and player development more than big names.

Melo and Woodson had little to do with the Knicks having a 54 win season .. All the credit for the Knicks winning 54 games in the 2012-13 season goes to "Jason Kidd and the Old-Timers defense-first".

Kemet wrote:If u dont know ask somebody .. on 2011 February trade deadline our Dum-Dum owner James Dolan made the Melo trade when every NBA team in the league refuse to trade for Melo .. even the Nets publically turned down the Melo trade. The Knicks had a 29-26 record the day James Dolan made the Melo Trade.

Melo and Woodson had little to do with the Knicks having a 54 win season .. All the credit for the Knicks winning 54 games in the 2012-13 season goes to "Jason Kidd and the Old-Timers defense-first".

Eventually, the Knicks won, or they lost, depending on how you view the last six years and the current conundrum. The Nets reached an agreement with the Nuggets and were intent on dealing for Anthony without his commitment, but Dolan upped New York's offer and sealed the deal by giving up Timofey Mozgov.

CrushAlot wrote:

Kemet wrote:If u dont know ask somebody .. on 2011 February trade deadline our Dum-Dum owner James Dolan made the Melo trade when every NBA team in the league refuse to trade for Melo .. even the Nets publically turned down the Melo trade. The Knicks had a 29-26 record the day James Dolan made the Melo Trade.

Melo and Woodson had little to do with the Knicks having a 54 win season .. All the credit for the Knicks winning 54 games in the 2012-13 season goes to "Jason Kidd and the Old-Timers defense-first".

Eventually, the Knicks won, or they lost, depending on how you view the last six years and the current conundrum. The Nets reached an agreement with the Nuggets and were intent on dealing for Anthony without his commitment, but Dolan upped New York's offer and sealed the deal by giving up Timofey Mozgov.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/knicks-nets-rivalry-peaked-years-carmelo-anthony-article-1.2960933