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The True Status Of The Knicks
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nixluva
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4/20/2017  1:19 PM
There has been a LOT of Media Narrative that the Knicks are in disarray and there's dysfunction and disharmony but I don't agree with this. The evidence is slanted much more heavily that the franchise is laying the foundation for a stronger future and they are more in sync on the whole.

Phil and Jeff are on the same page now and it's only a good thing. Phil approves of the tweaks Jeff has employed to the Triangle despite the Media narrative that Phil isn't going to let Jeff coach. Phil just wants there to be a fundamental base which we did see taking hold as the season came to an end.

“I let Jeff do what he wanted to do — an agreement to try to blend what we call whatever that flow, fastbreak, early shooting offense into something formatted,’’ Jackson said. “We kind of let it roll until things didn’t roll well before we [said it] looks like we need some more fundamentals, more function towards the end of a game. They showed at the end of season they started being able to do some of that.’’
http://nypost.com/2017/04/15/phil-jackson-wresting-control-of-knicks-back-from-jeff-hornacek/

Phil is trying to build a team that is built on Ball and Player movement and Defense. If you ignore the Media narrative of what he's done and really look at the team you can see the beginnings of the kind of team he wants and it was looking better as the kids got more of a chance to play. He's going to be looking to add more Team Oriented 2 Way players this summer.

“I like the backbone of what we have,’’ Jackson added later in the session. “You can see what we’ve got. Guys like Ron [Baker] and Chasson [Randle] and Willy Hernangomez, and the kids we’re bringing into this organization have a certain sense of how to play in the structure, the way we want to play.

“I think we’re moving in that direction. It’s not fast enough, obviously to carry the day, but I think we’re going to get there.’’

What fans should expect to see out of the Knicks next season: “Playing hard like we played the last five, six games. Guys getting up into people, playing hard, pick up full court at times. You know, ball movement, activity instead of standing. Those type of things. That’s what they’re going to see more of.’’

For me it was more like the last 9 games after they came back from the Road Trip. They didn't win them all of course but they did play harder and more together as a group as Phil said. It was a 4-5 stretch where we saw all the elements of what Phil wants this team to become starting to form.


Mon. 27 vs Pistons 95 - 109 W
Wed. 29 vs Heat 105 - 88 L
Sat. 01 at Heat 94 - 98 W
APRIL
Sun. 02 vs Celtics 110 - 94 L
Wed. 05 vs Bulls 91 - 100 W
Thu. 06 vs Wizards 106 - 103 L
Sat. 08 at Grizzlies 101 - 88 L
Sun. 09 vs Raptors 110 - 97 L
Thu. 13 vs 76ers 113 - 114 W

The future of Carmelo Anthony: “We will take into account his consideration. I told him this is not a situation where we’re going to dump you or do anything like that. We’re looking to improve ourselves however we can. We have not been able to win. And that’s our priority, to win.

“Our meeting was not contentious at all. And it was cordial. We have not been able to win with him on the court at this time. And I think the direction with our team, he is a player that would be better off somewhere else and using his talents somewhere where he can win or chase that championship.”

http://www.msgnetworks.com/2017/04/14/takeaways-from-jacksons-year-in-review/

Clearly he indicated to Melo that the team is going to be rebuilding for the most part. This is not a BAD THING as some are trying to paint it. Phil wants a foundation of Defense and Team Ball and there's nothing bad about that. He is thinking long term and also being more competitive in the short term.

Phil spoke about the importance or scouting for stronger On Ball Defenders as they look at the draft. This again is a recipe for future success. The more young talent he can find that plays that way the better. How can anyone argue against building with these principles going forward?

AUTOADVERT
HofstraBBall
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4/20/2017  1:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  1:32 PM
It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
fishmike
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4/20/2017  1:42 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

where does he say he's pleased with the current status of the team?
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nixluva
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4/20/2017  1:46 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?


I'm honestly not sure what you think these questions mean. There have been failures to be sure. For the most part the team has been unable to win despite getting off to decent starts. However, don't confuse the end result of the last 2 seasons with being the end all and be all for what the team's actual direction is moving forward.

There are GOOD THINGS actually developing underneath the losing. KP had a very good Rookie year last season, despite the losing. Willy had a very good Rookie year this season, despite the losing and we saw good things from the younger players on the team. Now we are about to add even more talented young talent with hopefully the same kind of mentality of guys like Baker and Holiday. Ball and Player Movement and Defense.

Jeff and Phil have formed a good working relationship and the team started to respond positively to Jeff's coaching as the season closed. The style of play was very encouraging since it was a mixture of Jeff's schemes with Triangle as a base. It may have started off rough but it picked up steam towards the end as the kids showed they could execute this Modernized Triangle. The losing record doesn't erase this fact. Phil really liked Jeff's Offense and the team will have that to start the year next season.

fishmike
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4/20/2017  1:54 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

sorry to single you out as you are not the only one who does this, but it is clear of the Phil must die crowd.

You may have read his words but you didnt listen at all.

Lets look again at some direct quotes:

Phil is trying to build...
Phil wants a foundation of Defense...
This again is a recipe for future success...
How can anyone argue against building with these principles going forward?

Do any of these indicate Nix is "pleased with the current status?"

No... he never says that, nor indicates it. He simply said the situation is not as bad as some would spout daily (you among them), and that what Phil is TRYING to do is good. The plan and implementing the plan are two different things. Your response was to ask questions based on what you HEARD, not what Nix actually WROTE.

Sorry. Phil is not saying he loves Phil or that Phil's doing a great job. He's saying Phil has the right goals, and isnt as far away as some think to accomplishing some of those goal. Very different than what you are suggesting.

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Nalod
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4/20/2017  1:54 PM
To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.
Anger sells, don't buy!
fishmike
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4/20/2017  1:55 PM
Nalod wrote:To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.

same
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nixluva
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4/20/2017  2:26 PM
WHO really likes losing??? I don't like being embarrassed by dumb Dolan crap or Phil tweeting. None of that is good or acceptable. However, underneath all of that is some very constructive things. We head into the offseason with some real opportunity to get some positive growth and roster improvement for the long term. No guarantees but there is real opportunity to add the kind of 2 Way Talent we need.

Phil has to eventually get with KP and straighten out that relationship and I trust that he will. The Melo thing is HUGE and it won't be easy. I think all parties are motivated to resolve the issue and that's a start. Melo said he wanted to know what the Knicks direction is and now he knows.

knicks1248
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4/20/2017  2:41 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

sorry to single you out as you are not the only one who does this, but it is clear of the Phil must die crowd.

You may have read his words but you didnt listen at all.

Lets look again at some direct quotes:

Phil is trying to build...
Phil wants a foundation of Defense...
This again is a recipe for future success...
How can anyone argue against building with these principles going forward?

Do any of these indicate Nix is "pleased with the current status?"

No... he never says that, nor indicates it. He simply said the situation is not as bad as some would spout daily (you among them), and that what Phil is TRYING to do is good. The plan and implementing the plan are two different things. Your response was to ask questions based on what you HEARD, not what Nix actually WROTE.

Sorry. Phil is not saying he loves Phil or that Phil's doing a great job. He's saying Phil has the right goals, and isnt as far away as some think to accomplishing some of those goal. Very different than what you are suggesting.

The problem is, phil is not going to be resign after his contact is up in 2 yrs, and there's no one on earth that's going to continue with his philosophy, and we'll probably have an entire new roster by then as well.

So what future are we talking about, 2019/20 season

ES
crzymdups
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4/20/2017  2:54 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  2:55 PM
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.

same

I don't think you guys are content. I'm just astounded you have faith left in him after three years of this.

He's been saying the same thing for three years. The problem is his actions.

I don't care what Phil says at press conferences. I care what he does. What's he's done is undermine two coaches, sign mediocre or worse free agents, trade away talent and get less in return, alienate both the veteran star and the young star of the team. He's drafted a few good picks, particularly KP and hopefully Willy - though they play basically the same position, so again the question is where's the logic for building a team?

If I may - it seems like you guys think anyone who is unhappy or frustrated with Phil "has an AGENDA", loves Melo, or is just trolling or blindly hating.

It ain't like that. People are genuinely frustrated and don't have much faith left in Phil to do this. Roland Lazenby, if you read the other tweets I posted in that thread, says Phil is a genius... but not very good with other people, he likes to enforce his will. Maybe that works as a coach, but not so well in the front office. It wouldn't be the first time. Even Lazenby, who is a Phil and Triangle fan and has written biographies about Phil, Kobe, and Michael Jordan has said this situation is a mess. The coaching situation is a mess. The implementation of the Triangle is a continual mess. He's rooting for it to succeed, but even he says Phil has to acknowledge and address some of his mistakes going forward. Again, he's Phil so he'll probably say some weird **** and I don't really care what he says - the issue is how he addresses it going forward.

If Phil figures this out, I'll give him full credit. But this has been body blow after body blow of terrible decisions. Even on a Lakers podcast the other day, the host was like "yeah everything Phil has done outside of drafting KP has been completely mystifying". So it's not just haters here or guys with an agenda. It's people watching and wondering.

I'm rooting for the Knicks to succeed. I haven't seen much from Phil to give me faith it can happen here. Like I said, if he does figure it out, I'll be the first to give him credit. But to argue he has figured it out or that we're on the right path.... is a little much. Has he even spoken to KP since the end of the season? I'd say part of being on the right path would be to be on speaking terms with the only hope of the franchise.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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4/20/2017  3:10 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

sorry to single you out as you are not the only one who does this, but it is clear of the Phil must die crowd.

You may have read his words but you didnt listen at all.

Lets look again at some direct quotes:

Phil is trying to build...
Phil wants a foundation of Defense...
This again is a recipe for future success...
How can anyone argue against building with these principles going forward?

Do any of these indicate Nix is "pleased with the current status?"

No... he never says that, nor indicates it. He simply said the situation is not as bad as some would spout daily (you among them), and that what Phil is TRYING to do is good. The plan and implementing the plan are two different things. Your response was to ask questions based on what you HEARD, not what Nix actually WROTE.

Sorry. Phil is not saying he loves Phil or that Phil's doing a great job. He's saying Phil has the right goals, and isnt as far away as some think to accomplishing some of those goal. Very different than what you are suggesting.

The problem is, phil is not going to be resign after his contact is up in 2 yrs, and there's no one on earth that's going to continue with his philosophy, and we'll probably have an entire new roster by then as well.

So what future are we talking about, 2019/20 season

A lot can happen this summer. Obviously we have to wait and see, but there is a lot of opportunity for positive change.

You think in 2 more years that after Phil is done that this franchise won't have his significant fingerprint all over it??? From the Scouting Department to the D League to the Front Office, Phil is basically putting in place a long term philosophy that can live past his being here.

As this thing moves forward there will be growth at every level. This is a process that is starting to take hold but when you have only just begun to form a new core it's hard to see down the line. We have to see what happens this summer 1st. Who Phil is able to draft and then it will be a bit more clear but we do know his Philosophy on what kind of players and team he's building towards. Team Oriented Players, Stronger Defense with Ball and Player Movement.

nixluva
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4/20/2017  3:23 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.

same

I don't think you guys are content. I'm just astounded you have faith left in him after three years of this.

He's been saying the same thing for three years. The problem is his actions.

I don't care what Phil says at press conferences. I care what he does. What's he's done is undermine two coaches, sign mediocre or worse free agents, trade away talent and get less in return, alienate both the veteran star and the young star of the team. He's drafted a few good picks, particularly KP and hopefully Willy - though they play basically the same position, so again the question is where's the logic for building a team?

If I may - it seems like you guys think anyone who is unhappy or frustrated with Phil "has an AGENDA", loves Melo, or is just trolling or blindly hating.

It ain't like that. People are genuinely frustrated and don't have much faith left in Phil to do this. Roland Lazenby, if you read the other tweets I posted in that thread, says Phil is a genius... but not very good with other people, he likes to enforce his will. Maybe that works as a coach, but not so well in the front office. It wouldn't be the first time. Even Lazenby, who is a Phil and Triangle fan and has written biographies about Phil, Kobe, and Michael Jordan has said this situation is a mess. The coaching situation is a mess. The implementation of the Triangle is a continual mess. He's rooting for it to succeed, but even he says Phil has to acknowledge and address some of his mistakes going forward. Again, he's Phil so he'll probably say some weird **** and I don't really care what he says - the issue is how he addresses it going forward.

If Phil figures this out, I'll give him full credit. But this has been body blow after body blow of terrible decisions. Even on a Lakers podcast the other day, the host was like "yeah everything Phil has done outside of drafting KP has been completely mystifying". So it's not just haters here or guys with an agenda. It's people watching and wondering.

I'm rooting for the Knicks to succeed. I haven't seen much from Phil to give me faith it can happen here. Like I said, if he does figure it out, I'll be the first to give him credit. But to argue he has figured it out or that we're on the right path.... is a little much. Has he even spoken to KP since the end of the season? I'd say part of being on the right path would be to be on speaking terms with the only hope of the franchise.


Again Knicks fans need to be much more informed on what Phil is actually doing. Phil is addressing the mistakes he's made! He's MUCH more clear on what he needs to do now than he was before. I think he was trying to make the best of the situation with Melo as a core piece and with good reason, but now he can move forward with a MUCH MORE CLEAR VISION of what he stands for.

So he has a developing good relationship with his coach. As i've pointed out Phil is PLEASED with what Jeff has brought to the team but obviously Jeff still has things to learn and Phil wants to help him deal with these things. They talk and they have come to a meeting of the minds which we haven't had. Phil will give Jeff a team that gives Max Effort and Buys In.

I think Phil trading Melo will free him of the burden of trying to come up with a vet group that can win with Melo. That is the real crux of the problems with this team. How to build something around Melo that can win when you don't have the means to draw the top Free Agents to leave money on the table or to choose the Knicks over Winning Teams they can go to even if they take a paycut.

Now Phil doesn't have to try and make some big FA signing based around trying to make it work with Melo. He can just build his team the way he sees fit with young players that we have more control over. Now Phil can just go about his business and not have to convince a bunch of FA's to come play with Melo. He can build this the right way with our own players for the most part.

fishmike
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4/20/2017  3:33 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.

same

I don't think you guys are content. I'm just astounded you have faith left in him after three years of this.

He's been saying the same thing for three years. The problem is his actions.

I don't care what Phil says at press conferences. I care what he does. What's he's done is undermine two coaches, sign mediocre or worse free agents, trade away talent and get less in return, alienate both the veteran star and the young star of the team. He's drafted a few good picks, particularly KP and hopefully Willy - though they play basically the same position, so again the question is where's the logic for building a team?

If I may - it seems like you guys think anyone who is unhappy or frustrated with Phil "has an AGENDA", loves Melo, or is just trolling or blindly hating.

It ain't like that. People are genuinely frustrated and don't have much faith left in Phil to do this. Roland Lazenby, if you read the other tweets I posted in that thread, says Phil is a genius... but not very good with other people, he likes to enforce his will. Maybe that works as a coach, but not so well in the front office. It wouldn't be the first time. Even Lazenby, who is a Phil and Triangle fan and has written biographies about Phil, Kobe, and Michael Jordan has said this situation is a mess. The coaching situation is a mess. The implementation of the Triangle is a continual mess. He's rooting for it to succeed, but even he says Phil has to acknowledge and address some of his mistakes going forward. Again, he's Phil so he'll probably say some weird **** and I don't really care what he says - the issue is how he addresses it going forward.

If Phil figures this out, I'll give him full credit. But this has been body blow after body blow of terrible decisions. Even on a Lakers podcast the other day, the host was like "yeah everything Phil has done outside of drafting KP has been completely mystifying". So it's not just haters here or guys with an agenda. It's people watching and wondering.

I'm rooting for the Knicks to succeed. I haven't seen much from Phil to give me faith it can happen here. Like I said, if he does figure it out, I'll be the first to give him credit. But to argue he has figured it out or that we're on the right path.... is a little much. Has he even spoken to KP since the end of the season? I'd say part of being on the right path would be to be on speaking terms with the only hope of the franchise.

because you cant tell the difference between a bad move and a move that didnt work.

Just like you loved the Grant trade at the draft. Two years later you are calling that move trash. It wasnt. It was a good move that didnt work out. There is a difference. Knicks traded a SG who regressed and shot 37% and didnt defend for a position of need and a player you liked. That was a good move that made sense. It didnt work out.
Of Shump, JR, Tyson.. the core guys we traded away for nothing who do you want here getting paid what they are getting paid? Those guys all signed big deals so which do you lament losing?

I am equally astounded.
Astounded by the daily complaining about losing players in bad trades that nobody wants on their roster anyway.
Astounded by the loyalty to a player who has never won and quit on coaches while here
Astounded by a fanbase that will lock onto any negative nugget the tabloids pump out grab on like monkeys to shiney objects and treat 5% of the truth as gospel

We could do this all day. Phil has not made good moves, but he has clearly tried to develop talent, value the draft, install a system, and rather than cater to a star player that doesnt play defense and places himself before the team to move along that this isnt the right place for you. He's been the anti-star phuck and has Dolan keeping out of it. It shouldnt be that astounding.

Funny also how the big knock on Phil is he's a great coach but a lousy exec. He doesnt get any time to figure this out? Its been 3 years. We have Willy and KP to show for it. Thats obviously not enough. Contrary to you I HAVE seen enough to stay patient and let see what adjustments he makes. I want what Phil wants.

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crzymdups
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4/20/2017  3:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  3:50 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:To some, if you don't want Phil fired, your content.
Actually some of us are rooted in the reality that is two year contract and the understanding of the task at hand.
Nalod not happy with 31 win season.

same

I don't think you guys are content. I'm just astounded you have faith left in him after three years of this.

He's been saying the same thing for three years. The problem is his actions.

I don't care what Phil says at press conferences. I care what he does. What's he's done is undermine two coaches, sign mediocre or worse free agents, trade away talent and get less in return, alienate both the veteran star and the young star of the team. He's drafted a few good picks, particularly KP and hopefully Willy - though they play basically the same position, so again the question is where's the logic for building a team?

If I may - it seems like you guys think anyone who is unhappy or frustrated with Phil "has an AGENDA", loves Melo, or is just trolling or blindly hating.

It ain't like that. People are genuinely frustrated and don't have much faith left in Phil to do this. Roland Lazenby, if you read the other tweets I posted in that thread, says Phil is a genius... but not very good with other people, he likes to enforce his will. Maybe that works as a coach, but not so well in the front office. It wouldn't be the first time. Even Lazenby, who is a Phil and Triangle fan and has written biographies about Phil, Kobe, and Michael Jordan has said this situation is a mess. The coaching situation is a mess. The implementation of the Triangle is a continual mess. He's rooting for it to succeed, but even he says Phil has to acknowledge and address some of his mistakes going forward. Again, he's Phil so he'll probably say some weird **** and I don't really care what he says - the issue is how he addresses it going forward.

If Phil figures this out, I'll give him full credit. But this has been body blow after body blow of terrible decisions. Even on a Lakers podcast the other day, the host was like "yeah everything Phil has done outside of drafting KP has been completely mystifying". So it's not just haters here or guys with an agenda. It's people watching and wondering.

I'm rooting for the Knicks to succeed. I haven't seen much from Phil to give me faith it can happen here. Like I said, if he does figure it out, I'll be the first to give him credit. But to argue he has figured it out or that we're on the right path.... is a little much. Has he even spoken to KP since the end of the season? I'd say part of being on the right path would be to be on speaking terms with the only hope of the franchise.

because you cant tell the difference between a bad move and a move that didnt work.

Just like you loved the Grant trade at the draft. Two years later you are calling that move trash. It wasnt. It was a good move that didnt work out. There is a difference. Knicks traded a SG who regressed and shot 37% and didnt defend for a position of need and a player you liked. That was a good move that made sense. It didnt work out.
Of Shump, JR, Tyson.. the core guys we traded away for nothing who do you want here getting paid what they are getting paid? Those guys all signed big deals so which do you lament losing?

I am equally astounded.
Astounded by the daily complaining about losing players in bad trades that nobody wants on their roster anyway.
Astounded by the loyalty to a player who has never won and quit on coaches while here
Astounded by a fanbase that will lock onto any negative nugget the tabloids pump out grab on like monkeys to shiney objects and treat 5% of the truth as gospel

We could do this all day. Phil has not made good moves, but he has clearly tried to develop talent, value the draft, install a system, and rather than cater to a star player that doesnt play defense and places himself before the team to move along that this isnt the right place for you. He's been the anti-star phuck and has Dolan keeping out of it. It shouldnt be that astounding.

Funny also how the big knock on Phil is he's a great coach but a lousy exec. He doesnt get any time to figure this out? Its been 3 years. We have Willy and KP to show for it. Thats obviously not enough. Contrary to you I HAVE seen enough to stay patient and let see what adjustments he makes. I want what Phil wants.

A tabloid reporting gossip is one thing... Adrian Wojnarowski giving a detailed run down of an organization in disarray on the verge of losing KP is quite another. You have Woj, the most respected basketball reporter in the entire league saying it. You have the guy who write biographies of Phil, Kobe, Michael and followed Phil for his twenty year career saying it.

The main problem, again, which you didn't mention at all - is how he's handled the coaching situation. Namely, he's gotten too overly involved there because he wants the coach to run HIS system. He didn't like the way Fish ran practices because it wasn't how HE would run them. He stepped in and made Hornacek run the Triangle, even though Hornacek has never run it or played in it before. Phil operates as if he's the coach. He should be in a Pop role if that's what he wants. But he is not well enough to do it. And yet... he won't let it go. It's created chaos. That's the thing you can't bring yourself to admit. It'll never work. Everyone who knows the league knows this.

As for the player transactions - we can all disagree and change our minds. I'm not being paid $12M a year or even $500k a year to figure it out, or I might make some different calls. Jerian Grant was a pet favorite of mine in the draft, so I was excited to get him. I was not excited to give up on him less than a year later, primarily because he didn't "get" the Triangle. One of the only games I can even remember from the past two seasons was the game Melo sprained his ankle against a ref in a game at MSG against the Celtics. Knicks were rolling, Melo went down, Celtics came back, Jerian Grant grew up on the court and secured the victory. It was fun to watch. I would not have given up on him for Rose if I were making a business decision about the types of player to build around. I can see the logic of moving Hardaway for Grant... but not the logic of immediately devaluing that pick for a rental/gamble on Rose. Nor doubling down by downgrading from Rolo to Noah. It was horrible basketball business sense. The fan in me wanted it to work... the logical basketball mind in me said it was a terrible gamble. And pretty much every analyst in the league said the same. I'm not going to rehash the Tyson trade for the umpteenth time, nor the Shump/JR giveaway that got Lebron a ring. He didn't get enough in return - but you know that part.

So, yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I can see what you HOPE will happen here with Phil. I really can. And I was on board for a while. But the way he's operated with the coaching is just a non-starter. It's never going to work. My main hope now is that at least we get some good draft picks - the Knicks always draft well when they have picks, because we have like five former very good GMs in the front office and now Gaines, not to mention the scout in Spain who has been on staff since the early 2000s and found KP and Willy.

I hope like hell the Knicks can build something... I'm just not going to ignore my eyes and the screaming feeling in my gut that the coaching setup here is doomed to repeated failure. Hey, like I said, I'd love to be wrong. I promise to do a "Mea Culpa - Phil wins" thread if I am and you guys can all throw rotten tomatoes at me for my wrong opinions while Nalod quotes the Lord of the Rings.

¿ △ ?
HofstraBBall
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4/20/2017  4:00 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

where does he say he's pleased with the current status of the team?

Nix and I have been going at it for some time on this issue. He is in the side that Phil has us heading in the right direction. I don't.

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4/20/2017  4:04 PM
nixluva wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?


I'm honestly not sure what you think these questions mean. There have been failures to be sure. For the most part the team has been unable to win despite getting off to decent starts. However, don't confuse the end result of the last 2 seasons with being the end all and be all for what the team's actual direction is moving forward.

There are GOOD THINGS actually developing underneath the losing. KP had a very good Rookie year last season, despite the losing. Willy had a very good Rookie year this season, despite the losing and we saw good things from the younger players on the team. Now we are about to add even more talented young talent with hopefully the same kind of mentality of guys like Baker and Holiday. Ball and Player Movement and Defense.

Jeff and Phil have formed a good working relationship and the team started to respond positively to Jeff's coaching as the season closed. The style of play was very encouraging since it was a mixture of Jeff's schemes with Triangle as a base. It may have started off rough but it picked up steam towards the end as the kids showed they could execute this Modernized Triangle. The losing record doesn't erase this fact. Phil really liked Jeff's Offense and the team will have that to start the year next season.

The question were pretty much that. Did not have any back door meanings. As i said, don't think we can convince each other of what we already feel. Just curious what would have to happen that will change your feeling on Phil neimh the right guy for the job? Mine would be if he somehow unloads Noah, gets us 2 quality draft picks and starts making the Knicks front office respected.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
fishmike
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4/20/2017  4:20 PM
Eddy Curry was a terrible gamble. Noah is a setback at best, and only one chapter in that book is written. I think part of my beef with you is while most of Phil's moves have not been good they dont merit the venom or descriptions you use. Astonished others can see... etc... give me a break.

Shump and JR didnt "GET" Lebron a ring. My god I have heard it all. They were literally sucking and LOSING him the series before he put on b2b2b mind boggling Jordan like performances.

Agree to disagree indeed. Scour the internet for anyone writing a bad note on Phil, post it and put everything you have behind it. Boy when you sour you really phucking sour man. Knicks have stunk for 15+ years with one blip for the zealots to cling to. They finally have a GM who Dolan has said "Im not involved." So what he's a smug douche. So was Riley. Most are. Phil wants a skilled, defensive first, ball sharing team. Starting with a core of Melo/JR/Shump/Tyson doesnt make that an easy task.

What you deny is how difficult it is to judge and gauge the process mid stream. It looks bad right now, but not terrible IMO, and this is going to be slow shift. Its why GMs 5 year deals. That is not an excuse or being OK as you seem to interpret every thought of this nature.

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nixluva
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4/20/2017  4:29 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?


I'm honestly not sure what you think these questions mean. There have been failures to be sure. For the most part the team has been unable to win despite getting off to decent starts. However, don't confuse the end result of the last 2 seasons with being the end all and be all for what the team's actual direction is moving forward.

There are GOOD THINGS actually developing underneath the losing. KP had a very good Rookie year last season, despite the losing. Willy had a very good Rookie year this season, despite the losing and we saw good things from the younger players on the team. Now we are about to add even more talented young talent with hopefully the same kind of mentality of guys like Baker and Holiday. Ball and Player Movement and Defense.

Jeff and Phil have formed a good working relationship and the team started to respond positively to Jeff's coaching as the season closed. The style of play was very encouraging since it was a mixture of Jeff's schemes with Triangle as a base. It may have started off rough but it picked up steam towards the end as the kids showed they could execute this Modernized Triangle. The losing record doesn't erase this fact. Phil really liked Jeff's Offense and the team will have that to start the year next season.

The question were pretty much that. Did not have any back door meanings. As i said, don't think we can convince each other of what we already feel. Just curious what would have to happen that will change your feeling on Phil neimh the right guy for the job? Mine would be if he somehow unloads Noah, gets us 2 quality draft picks and starts making the Knicks front office respected.

What is most important to focus on is that Phil has a nice start on the process of building the team the way he wants. The younger players displayed the Max Effort and Ball and Player movement he's looking for. All the other stuff that happened is less important than what he's looking to build for the future.

Does it matter now that he tried out Brandon Jennings? What impact does that have on the team going forward? NONE. No impact at all.

Noah was disappointing but is irrelevant to the points i'm trying to make. He's an older vet that had knee issues and still I can understand the reasoning behind Phil wanting him here. I think Noah does bring a certain approach to the game that Phil believes in and will be valuable as the team tries to develop younger players. That doesn't really get to the main issue at hand.

Phil is now making a CLEAR statement that the Melo Era is over. All that is left is to make a trade but in terms of any effort to build with Melo in mind that is over. Melo's poor example is over. Everything from now on is going to be about building with players that give Defensive Effort and Ball and Player Movement. THAT'S IT.

fishmike
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4/20/2017  4:35 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

where does he say he's pleased with the current status of the team?

Nix and I have been going at it for some time on this issue. He is in the side that Phil has us heading in the right direction. I don't.

are "heading in the right direction" and "pleased with the current status" the same? Seem very different to me.

This is what I am talking about... You keep repeating things people arent saying. "Heading in the right direction" is debatable. I am on the fence. Hell of a lot different than being happy or content which is what you say. Who here is happy or content with this? Name one guy.. show me one quote. Cmon man... just call it like it is.

As for Nix, he's a fanatic. He is going to give you the upside. He's going to give you a positive take if there is one. He's also not stood behind every move, but yes.. for the most part he's positive. Kind of crazy, considering its a Knick's fan board, but it turns out one made through the cracks

Believe it or not this is some middle ground behind wanting Phil tar and feathered vs. placed on a pedestal.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
HofstraBBall
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4/20/2017  4:36 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:It's good that we have a few Knick fans , like you, that are pleased with the current status of the team. You guys are a dying breed. Question for you Nix, as it's pointless to argue our opposing views of the direction of the franchise....

What type of trades/moves/player protests would make you feel we might be heading in the wrong direction? How many more losing years would you take before saying it might not be working?

sorry to single you out as you are not the only one who does this, but it is clear of the Phil must die crowd.

You may have read his words but you didnt listen at all.

Lets look again at some direct quotes:

Phil is trying to build...
Phil wants a foundation of Defense...
This again is a recipe for future success...
How can anyone argue against building with these principles going forward?

Do any of these indicate Nix is "pleased with the current status?"

No... he never says that, nor indicates it. He simply said the situation is not as bad as some would spout daily (you among them), and that what Phil is TRYING to do is good. The plan and implementing the plan are two different things. Your response was to ask questions based on what you HEARD, not what Nix actually WROTE.

Sorry. Phil is not saying he loves Phil or that Phil's doing a great job. He's saying Phil has the right goals, and isnt as far away as some think to accomplishing some of those goal. Very different than what you are suggesting.

No need to apologize. Heated banter is why we come on here. I now Know Nix is a true Knick fan. Not just a guy trolling in a player. Which i thought he was.

I think for me, it is more than Phil. It's about Dolan. From day one I thought Dolan went with yet another big name regardless of positional experience. To me it was a red flag that his own Laker adopted family did not give him more control. hesitancy of Lakers to hire him, his ego and player relations were also a concern. But like I said, it's personal opinion that has been reinforced by his shortcomings.

As for the right goals. Agree about defense needing to be the foundation. However, its hard to believe in his defensive commitment once he passed on bringing in a defense minded coach. Which i hoped he would have. Also, choosing Rambo as his defensive coach is not exactly a huge endorsement to his commitment to defense. Just have seen this too many times before. Dolan hires some shield for a few years, one that does not have the energy or commitment to be here for the long haul. But I hope you guys are right.

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