fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:why are you defending phil so hard martin. I wish the players he acquired would fight this hard for him

The franchise is a mess, what difference does make, losing culture, disgruntle players, far as hell from contending, and he is teaching players how to play the right way from an executive position, and so far 60 players haven't figured it out yet.. Neither has he.

the little tid bits, like keeping flex cap space, and keeping draft picks..you guys think the world of that, until he drafts a bust, and adds more salary just to rid himself of melo..

I'm not, that's just all you see.

You hate Phil, and if someone doesn't agree 100% with your take you won't listen and label it as apologist or something silly. I'm not into that.

I don't hate phil, I hate the state of the knicks, and he's responsible for the for everything wrong with it, the roster and the coaching staff, and he never mans up.

He takes little to no responsibility, he's always pointing the thing finger at the coach or the players. So you hire incompetent people and blame them for being incompetent as the reason for this mess.

Slow down there fella. Phil "is responsible for everything wrong with it"!

IMO, and I think the facts would back me up, is that there's nothing wrong with the coaching staff. The Knicks have long been run like a country-club and Phil expects players to actually - you know - learn a system and be in shape enough to execute it. Shocking I know. But personalizing the distaste for hard work by hating on the coaching staff is poor taste not legitimate criticism.

And by confronting Melo and his NTC, some of us might say that he is "manning up". He hasn't taken shots at the coaching staff to my knowledge. Where he sees deficiencies he's stepped in and why not? its like saying DaVinci shouldn't touch up an apprentice's work. Phil is here to teach as well as administer - get used to it.

Get used to what, this isn't the start of a long 5 to 10 yr relationship, he has 2 yrs left, and like I just said in another thread, it will be a new regime, with a new direction, and new players.

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:why are you defending phil so hard martin. I wish the players he acquired would fight this hard for him

The franchise is a mess, what difference does make, losing culture, disgruntle players, far as hell from contending, and he is teaching players how to play the right way from an executive position, and so far 60 players haven't figured it out yet.. Neither has he.

the little tid bits, like keeping flex cap space, and keeping draft picks..you guys think the world of that, until he drafts a bust, and adds more salary just to rid himself of melo..

I'm not, that's just all you see.

You hate Phil, and if someone doesn't agree 100% with your take you won't listen and label it as apologist or something silly. I'm not into that.

I don't hate phil, I hate the state of the knicks, and he's responsible for the for everything wrong with it, the roster and the coaching staff, and he never mans up.

He takes little to no responsibility, he's always pointing the thing finger at the coach or the players. So you hire incompetent people and blame them for being incompetent as the reason for this mess.

Slow down there fella. Phil "is responsible for everything wrong with it"!

IMO, and I think the facts would back me up, is that there's nothing wrong with the coaching staff. The Knicks have long been run like a country-club and Phil expects players to actually - you know - learn a system and be in shape enough to execute it. Shocking I know. But personalizing the distaste for hard work by hating on the coaching staff is poor taste not legitimate criticism.

And by confronting Melo and his NTC, some of us might say that he is "manning up". He hasn't taken shots at the coaching staff to my knowledge. Where he sees deficiencies he's stepped in and why not? its like saying DaVinci shouldn't touch up an apprentice's work. Phil is here to teach as well as administer - get used to it.

Get used to what, this isn't the start of a long 5 to 10 yr relationship, he has 2 yrs left, and like I just said in another thread, it will be a new regime, with a new direction, and new players.

Phil will be here at least five more years in one capacity or another. He's given up a lot to be here and put his pieces in place. You can be sure as the Knicks pendulum upswings he'll be involved.

You and so many others interpret everything said and written in literal terms. Anyone with eyes can see Dolan is very comfortable with Phil, Phil is very comfortable with Horny and Rambis and his GMs and advisors, all the way down the line to Westchester. He'll find room for more rings.

meloshouldgo wrote:The Phil hate has gone to extreme levels. Oddly enough it seemed to go 5 levels higher in toxicity when Phil clearly said he wanted Melo to leave. Equally odd is that the toxic posting is coming from the same people who bitched incesantly about Phil not addressing the fans and not clarifying the direction of the team. Now that he had done both, these same "fans" are throwing muck all over the place. Trolling at its finest.

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:The Phil hate has gone to extreme levels. Oddly enough it seemed to go 5 levels higher in toxicity when Phil clearly said he wanted Melo to leave. Equally odd is that the toxic posting is coming from the same people who bitched incesantly about Phil not addressing the fans and not clarifying the direction of the team. Now that he had done both, these same "fans" are throwing muck all over the place. Trolling at its finest.

Take Phil out of it. What are your thoughts on roster continuity, coaching continuity, and system continuity in regards to the Knicks record for the last three years?

Neither better nor worse than the last 20 years. When the team sucks, continuity is a moot point. The main obstacle to continuity has been Melo and his incessant bitching about his precious window closing. He has demanded roster overhauls two of those three years, but you never bring THAT up.
On one hand you bitch about Melo not having players atound him on the other hand you whine about the GM trying to put players around him. When all you care about is voicing your undying negativity about everything it realky doesnt matter what anyone does, does it? Damned if you do, double damned if you don't.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:The Phil hate has gone to extreme levels. Oddly enough it seemed to go 5 levels higher in toxicity when Phil clearly said he wanted Melo to leave. Equally odd is that the toxic posting is coming from the same people who bitched incesantly about Phil not addressing the fans and not clarifying the direction of the team. Now that he had done both, these same "fans" are throwing muck all over the place. Trolling at its finest.

Take Phil out of it. What are your thoughts on roster continuity, coaching continuity, and system continuity in regards to the Knicks record for the last three years?

Neither better nor worse than the last 20 years. When the team sucks, continuity is a moot point. The main obstacle to continuity has been Melo and his incessant bitching about his precious window closing. He has demanded roster overhauls two of those three years, but you never bring THAT up.
On one hand you bitch about Melo not having players atound him on the other hand you whine about the GM trying to put players around him. When all you care about is voicing your undying negativity about everything it realky doesnt matter what anyone does, does it? Damned if you do, double damned if you don't.

So you see roster turnover occurring two out of three years because Melo demanded it? Okay, what about coaching continuity and system continuity?

Feel like you are asking these questions out of spite instead of a genuine curiosity for someone's opinion.

When you have a coach that doesn't have good rapport with front office, it's not a good thing. So, would have Phil keep a situation like that going or move on from it? You either want to keep a bad situation going - something no team would do - or you have a situation where you find a new coach. I have no idea why you would look for coaching continuity in that type of situation.

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:why are you defending phil so hard martin. I wish the players he acquired would fight this hard for him

The franchise is a mess, what difference does make, losing culture, disgruntle players, far as hell from contending, and he is teaching players how to play the right way from an executive position, and so far 60 players haven't figured it out yet.. Neither has he.

the little tid bits, like keeping flex cap space, and keeping draft picks..you guys think the world of that, until he drafts a bust, and adds more salary just to rid himself of melo..

I'm not, that's just all you see.

You hate Phil, and if someone doesn't agree 100% with your take you won't listen and label it as apologist or something silly. I'm not into that.

I don't hate phil, I hate the state of the knicks, and he's responsible for the for everything wrong with it, the roster and the coaching staff, and he never mans up.

He takes little to no responsibility, he's always pointing the thing finger at the coach or the players. So you hire incompetent people and blame them for being incompetent as the reason for this mess.

Slow down there fella. Phil "is responsible for everything wrong with it"!

IMO, and I think the facts would back me up, is that there's nothing wrong with the coaching staff. The Knicks have long been run like a country-club and Phil expects players to actually - you know - learn a system and be in shape enough to execute it. Shocking I know. But personalizing the distaste for hard work by hating on the coaching staff is poor taste not legitimate criticism.

And by confronting Melo and his NTC, some of us might say that he is "manning up". He hasn't taken shots at the coaching staff to my knowledge. Where he sees deficiencies he's stepped in and why not? its like saying DaVinci shouldn't touch up an apprentice's work. Phil is here to teach as well as administer - get used to it.

Get used to what, this isn't the start of a long 5 to 10 yr relationship, he has 2 yrs left, and like I just said in another thread, it will be a new regime, with a new direction, and new players.

Phil will be here at least five more years in one capacity or another. He's given up a lot to be here and put his pieces in place. You can be sure as the Knicks pendulum upswings he'll be involved.

You and so many others interpret everything said and written in literal terms. Anyone with eyes can see Dolan is very comfortable with Phil, Phil is very comfortable with Horny and Rambis and his GMs and advisors, all the way down the line to Westchester. He'll find room for more rings.

do you wear your "I LOVE phil and DOLAN" T shirts in public

or do you wear the one that says "100 games under .500 go triangle"

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:why are you defending phil so hard martin. I wish the players he acquired would fight this hard for him

The franchise is a mess, what difference does make, losing culture, disgruntle players, far as hell from contending, and he is teaching players how to play the right way from an executive position, and so far 60 players haven't figured it out yet.. Neither has he.

the little tid bits, like keeping flex cap space, and keeping draft picks..you guys think the world of that, until he drafts a bust, and adds more salary just to rid himself of melo..

I'm not, that's just all you see.

You hate Phil, and if someone doesn't agree 100% with your take you won't listen and label it as apologist or something silly. I'm not into that.

I don't hate phil, I hate the state of the knicks, and he's responsible for the for everything wrong with it, the roster and the coaching staff, and he never mans up.

He takes little to no responsibility, he's always pointing the thing finger at the coach or the players. So you hire incompetent people and blame them for being incompetent as the reason for this mess.

Slow down there fella. Phil "is responsible for everything wrong with it"!

IMO, and I think the facts would back me up, is that there's nothing wrong with the coaching staff. The Knicks have long been run like a country-club and Phil expects players to actually - you know - learn a system and be in shape enough to execute it. Shocking I know. But personalizing the distaste for hard work by hating on the coaching staff is poor taste not legitimate criticism.

And by confronting Melo and his NTC, some of us might say that he is "manning up". He hasn't taken shots at the coaching staff to my knowledge. Where he sees deficiencies he's stepped in and why not? its like saying DaVinci shouldn't touch up an apprentice's work. Phil is here to teach as well as administer - get used to it.

Get used to what, this isn't the start of a long 5 to 10 yr relationship, he has 2 yrs left, and like I just said in another thread, it will be a new regime, with a new direction, and new players.

Phil will be here at least five more years in one capacity or another. He's given up a lot to be here and put his pieces in place. You can be sure as the Knicks pendulum upswings he'll be involved.

You and so many others interpret everything said and written in literal terms. Anyone with eyes can see Dolan is very comfortable with Phil, Phil is very comfortable with Horny and Rambis and his GMs and advisors, all the way down the line to Westchester. He'll find room for more rings.

do you wear your "I LOVE phil and DOLAN" T shirts in public

or do you wear the one that says "100 games under .500 go triangle"

Knicks B Trippin'

misterearl wrote:Until the Knicks, as a franchise, heal their issues with continuity. leadership and cohesion from the top down - the franchise will be doomed to mediocrity. Period. End of story.

Is Internal Continuity (patience)Our Worst Enemy?

I believe it was David Chase, who created and wrote The Sopranos, who talked about his research into psychology and the world of therapists in regards to his Tony Soprano/Dr Jennifer Melfi storyline. One thing I took away from Chase was his discussion that functional therapy and healing - It takes as long as it takes, as long as you are doing the "right thing" in terms of doing positive things for yourself. I.E. making the emotionally healthy decision.

It takes as long as it takes.

I'd rather see the Knicks win versus lose, but I understand if they lose if

A) The team plays the right way, they play as a team with max effort with full commitment to win at all costs, even above the desires of the individual player

B) The franchise makes personnel decisions that line up with practical and current market forces ( An example of this would be Golden State trading Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut. They traded small for big, they traded net negative defense for plus defense and rim protection, they traded upwards in terms of positional value. They take the injury risk associated with Bogut, but most of the methodology was based on sound and practical positive market based decisions) If you miss, you miss, but miss on a good decision making process. Taking in Rose is not an example of this. Losing cost controlled years, trading big for small, trading injury prone for durable, trading against positional value, trading prime future years potentially for decline years. Trading non off the court issues for someone rife with them. Nothing about the Rose trade was in line with how the NBA marketplace operates.

C) The entire franchise, top to bottom, is aligned with the same vision and goal. Different parts of the franchise are not working against each other, but instead, behave in tandem, as a unit, as team and family, to seek the greater goal for the greater good of the franchise itself.

If you truly do that, I believe you won't have to wait forever. But if you do that, then it takes as long as it takes.

"Patience" is not a bad thing if you see a consistent vision and process at work. Dolan, Jackson and Melo do not provide that for this franchise.

Basic Test - If you have to do the EXACT SAME THING after GM X or Player Y leaves, just like you needed to do it when you first got them there, then something is very very wrong. That's burning time. No patience for burning time. That's a waste.

If Jackson made market viable decisions and it didn't work out, then OK. If he was the one trading Rose for Lopez and Grant and it didn't work out, then OK. The base methodology was there as to why that kind of decision would make sense. However, the reverse, which is what actually happened, is not defensible.

I don't think anyone, except the small minority of fans who are the most vocal and whom guys like blkexec like to blame ( who the flying f**k thinks its OK to blame the fans?), has a problem with a team losing if it genuinely is moving in a positive progressive direction.

A franchise can survive a bad owner and find a way. Plenty of super lousy owners have raised a championship trophy in their lives. A franchise can survive a bad GM and find a way. Andrew Luck might simply outplay and outstrip the incompetence of the Colts front office in his career span. A franchise can even sometime find a way and survive past a bad franchise player. But you can't move past a bad version of ALL THREE on the same franchise. Jackson and Melo both need to go and go now for this franchise to have any hope for the future.

fwk00 wrote:Earl, you're misinterpreting what's important.

Continuity can be measured in many ways. For example, Phil's organization has been consistent and stabilized. There is little or no revolving door activity or controversy in the front-office. Continuity can also be measured by continuous improvement.

Is Hernangomez an upgrade from Lopez?

Is Randle/Baker an upgrade from Calderon/Galloway?

Is Courtney Lee and upgrade over Afflalo?

You can go through the returning roster and find all kinds of signs of improvement. Same with the coaching staff.

I agree that at least six, maybe seven players will be swapped out (for a superior talent or asset). But why would we not want that to happen? I could understand that kind of criticism if we had a winning team firing on all cylinders. But what we have is the last of the Melo-window rosters, none of which clicked. It would be malfeasance to do that again.

I think the Hornacek/Rambis controversy is largely manufactured. It seems to me that Phil recognised the criticism of Rambis as an indirect criticism of what he had asked Rambis to implement. Rather than allow Hornacek to get saddled with the same [hate] effect, he kept Rambis [a knowing and accepting partner] on as a firewall for Hornacek.

Now, I love Red Holzman to but Phil is considered obsolete because his system philosophy is older than a Millennial. Summoning Red is taking a scary trip in the wayback machine for this generation of fans.

I think the two positions that will receive the most attention are the swing positions - 2 guard and small forward, the others will improve with maturity. The bench will also get much stronger.

Phil Jackson President, New York Knicks & NBA Alternate Governor
Function: Stationary Associate Head Coach, recommendations on player transactions

Steve Mills General Manager & NBA Alternate Governor
Reality Check: A holdover who Dolan feels comfortable with as insurance, filter transaction research

Jeff Hornacek Head Coach
Function: Traveling Associate Head Coach

Kurt Rambis Associate Head Coach
Function: Traveling Associate Head Coach

Howard Eisley, Corey Gaines, Jerry Sichting Assistant Coaches
Function: Follow the directives of the three Associate Head Coaches

do the math
 

CrushAlot wrote:You have to click the link to see the charts.

How does roster continuity affect win percentage?

An analysis of the correlation between roster noise and win percentage over NBA seasons for active franchises.

In the below charts, we show a team's win percentage and 'roster noise' (the amount of fluctuation in the team's roster) for every NBA regular season. Roster noise is represented by the amplitude of the curve at a certain data point. For example, the amplitude of the curve for 1987-88 season for the Atlanta Hawks is miniscule since they hardly changed their roster from the previous season. Roster noise is calculated as 100% minus continuity, where continuity is the % of a team's regular season minutes that were filled by players from the previous season's roster.

Roster continuity raw data can be found at Basketball Reference

https://vishaalagartha.github.io/roster-continuity/index.html

Nice catch CrushALot.