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Is Internal Continuity (patience)Our Worst Enemy?
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misterearl
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4/19/2017  10:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/19/2017  10:19 PM
The Knicks are beginning to remind me of the Atlanta Braves of the early 80's. Ted Turner needed a sports property for his new television network (Channel 17) and decided the Braves would be a nice show. He built promotions and marketed for television ratings. The team floundered on the field. It was not until Turner stepped away and hired John Scheurholtz (sp) that they FINALLY produced a consistent winner. The leadership of Scheurholtz changed the Braves culture, right down to the head groundskeeper.

The point being, the Knicks for Dolan are simply another entertainment property in the Cablevision empire. Winning is less important than the acquisition of players who can provide the illusion of being competitive. There is no strategy or franchise personality, other than constant change. Hiring Uncle Phil for an obscene amount of money was to add to the illusion of seriousness, except Uncle Phil had NEVER built a franchise and was tethered to the greatness that was Michael Jordan.

Until the Knicks let go of the illusion of entertainment, as the Braves did, they will be stuck on the treadmill of mediocrity.

once a knick always a knick
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Paris907
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4/19/2017  10:30 PM
Continuity. I agree wholeheartedly. Yet let me ask if Jackson is part of the continuity. I saw a poll on this blog today where most of "us" wanted Phil gone. I think Dolan made a very smart move with Phil. He anticipated a rebuild and paid Phil $12 million per to avoid the heat. Continuity unfortunately includes ownership. Phils made blunders as we all know yet recessitating the Knicks is no easy feat particularly if it includes a cultural change and creating a team to last. I say continuity yes however acknowledge the rebuild and let's not be too hard on Phil as this is why Dolan paid Phil. To take the heat off him. Next year will also be tough yet if we pick up a stud at 7, and demonstrate patience - we may just turn the corner by the time Porzingis turns 24-25!
HofstraBBall
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4/19/2017  10:34 PM
misterearl wrote:The Knicks are beginning to remind me of the Atlanta Braves of the early 80's. Ted Turner needed a sports property for his new television network (Channel 17) and decided the Braves would be a nice show. He built promotions and marketed for television ratings. The team floundered on the field. It was not until Turner stepped away and hired John Scheurholtz (sp) that they FINALLY produced a consistent winner. The leadership of Scheurholtz changed the Braves culture, right down to the head groundskeeper.

The point being, the Knicks for Dolan are simply another entertainment property in the Cablevision empire. Winning is less important than the acquisition of players who can provide the illusion of being competitive. There is no strategy or franchise personality, other than constant change. Hiring Uncle Phil for an obscene amount of money was to add to the illusion of seriousness, except Uncle Phil had NEVER built a franchise and was tethered to the greatness that was Michael Jordan.

Until the Knicks let go of the illusion of entertainment, as the Braves did, they will be stuck on the treadmill of mediocrity.

This. I have been saying it for weeks. Many have been blinded by the desire for change, Not realizing that Dolan has given them exactly what he has for years. Another high priced mirage.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
holfresh
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4/19/2017  10:44 PM
You know what really upset me..Phil didn't have the respect to assure the fans about anything all year..He was asked about it as the press conference..He responded by asking the reporter if he was a fan..
fwk00
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4/20/2017  12:30 AM
holfresh wrote:You know what really upset me..Phil didn't have the respect to assure the fans about anything all year..He was asked about it as the press conference..He responded by asking the reporter if he was a fan..

You must be heartbroken.

fwk00
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4/20/2017  1:18 AM
misterearl wrote:Thinking about the number of former Knicks scattered around the NBA, and the unrest with Portzingis deliberately avoiding his post season sit down with Phil Jackson, the dissension is a recurring theme.

JR Smith, Channing Frye, Robin Lopez, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, Tim Hardaway Jr., Timofey Mozgov are all still productive players.

Kurt Rambis, holdover from the previous head coach, has a questionable standing with his players. Notice a theme here?

Until the Knicks, as a franchise, heal their issues with continuity. leadership and cohesion from the top down - the franchise will be doomed to mediocrity. Period. End of story.

Earl, players get traded and get around. This isn't different for any other teams. In fact the number of Spurs around the league on teams that don't win is equally striking. So I don't think you can extrapolate a theory about this that would prove conclusive. None of those players are game-changers where they're at. Not a one. After Melo leaves, he won't be either.

Porzingis, IMO, is making a big mistake that will bite him in the ass the next time he does it. He has to be careful while he's riding high not to forget he may not always be riding high. Burning bridges is not always a great idea.

The "dissent" seems to all come from one cohort on the Knicks - the Melo-centric one. How else could anyone explain Rose desiring to come back when talking to [the presumably hated, reviled, triangle devil, satanic holder of eleven rings] Phil Jackson. I mean, one would expect Phil to say to the dissident Rose - "you'll be back over my dead body."
Instead Phil expressed respect. The dissent narrative sure sounds fishy in this context.

Then there's the media driven meme that Porzingis has doubts about the "triangle". Yet when watching his buddy Hernangomez reach career high numbers in closing games, Porzingis had a big smile on his face. And those players sure looked happy out there (a sure sign they must hate it, the coaches, Phil, Dolan, everything triangle - not to mention their confusion about the direction of the team - how could it be this easy and so much fun?).

Based on Phil's recent comments, he [Phil] watches the game films, comments on defense, and Rambis and the coaches pass it along. I think you have to figure out who hates defense and traingulate that as the person/persons who mistake Rambis for the message.

I think Phil IS the continuity. And its not about patience, its about a reasonable gestation period in which to build a team. Phil asked for five years. Let's assume he knows his stuff.

crzymdups
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4/20/2017  1:23 AM
fwk00 wrote:
misterearl wrote:Thinking about the number of former Knicks scattered around the NBA, and the unrest with Portzingis deliberately avoiding his post season sit down with Phil Jackson, the dissension is a recurring theme.

JR Smith, Channing Frye, Robin Lopez, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, Tim Hardaway Jr., Timofey Mozgov are all still productive players.

Kurt Rambis, holdover from the previous head coach, has a questionable standing with his players. Notice a theme here?

Until the Knicks, as a franchise, heal their issues with continuity. leadership and cohesion from the top down - the franchise will be doomed to mediocrity. Period. End of story.

Earl, players get traded and get around. This isn't different for any other teams. In fact the number of Spurs around the league on teams that don't win is equally striking. So I don't think you can extrapolate a theory about this that would prove conclusive. None of those players are game-changers where they're at. Not a one. After Melo leaves, he won't be either.

Porzingis, IMO, is making a big mistake that will bite him in the ass the next time he does it. He has to be careful while he's riding high not to forget he may not always be riding high. Burning bridges is not always a great idea.

The "dissent" seems to all come from one cohort on the Knicks - the Melo-centric one. How else could anyone explain Rose desiring to come back when talking to [the presumably hated, reviled, triangle devil, satanic holder of eleven rings] Phil Jackson. I mean, one would expect Phil to say to the dissident Rose - "you'll be back over my dead body."
Instead Phil expressed respect. The dissent narrative sure sounds fishy in this context.

Then there's the media driven meme that Porzingis has doubts about the "triangle". Yet when watching his buddy Hernangomez reach career high numbers in closing games, Porzingis had a big smile on his face. And those players sure looked happy out there (a sure sign they must hate it, the coaches, Phil, Dolan, everything triangle - not to mention their confusion about the direction of the team - how could it be this easy and so much fun?).

Based on Phil's recent comments, he [Phil] watches the game films, comments on defense, and Rambis and the coaches pass it along. I think you have to figure out who hates defense and traingulate that as the person/persons who mistake Rambis for the message.

I think Phil IS the continuity. And its not about patience, its about a reasonable gestation period in which to build a team. Phil asked for five years. Let's assume he knows his stuff.

Every time I read one of your posts I just feel the need to say that the DELUSION RUNS VERY DEEP AT MSG

¿ △ ?
fwk00
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4/20/2017  1:31 AM
crzymdups wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
misterearl wrote:Thinking about the number of former Knicks scattered around the NBA, and the unrest with Portzingis deliberately avoiding his post season sit down with Phil Jackson, the dissension is a recurring theme.

JR Smith, Channing Frye, Robin Lopez, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, Tim Hardaway Jr., Timofey Mozgov are all still productive players.

Kurt Rambis, holdover from the previous head coach, has a questionable standing with his players. Notice a theme here?

Until the Knicks, as a franchise, heal their issues with continuity. leadership and cohesion from the top down - the franchise will be doomed to mediocrity. Period. End of story.

Earl, players get traded and get around. This isn't different for any other teams. In fact the number of Spurs around the league on teams that don't win is equally striking. So I don't think you can extrapolate a theory about this that would prove conclusive. None of those players are game-changers where they're at. Not a one. After Melo leaves, he won't be either.

Porzingis, IMO, is making a big mistake that will bite him in the ass the next time he does it. He has to be careful while he's riding high not to forget he may not always be riding high. Burning bridges is not always a great idea.

The "dissent" seems to all come from one cohort on the Knicks - the Melo-centric one. How else could anyone explain Rose desiring to come back when talking to [the presumably hated, reviled, triangle devil, satanic holder of eleven rings] Phil Jackson. I mean, one would expect Phil to say to the dissident Rose - "you'll be back over my dead body."
Instead Phil expressed respect. The dissent narrative sure sounds fishy in this context.

Then there's the media driven meme that Porzingis has doubts about the "triangle". Yet when watching his buddy Hernangomez reach career high numbers in closing games, Porzingis had a big smile on his face. And those players sure looked happy out there (a sure sign they must hate it, the coaches, Phil, Dolan, everything triangle - not to mention their confusion about the direction of the team - how could it be this easy and so much fun?).

Based on Phil's recent comments, he [Phil] watches the game films, comments on defense, and Rambis and the coaches pass it along. I think you have to figure out who hates defense and triangulate that as the person/persons who mistake Rambis for the message.

I think Phil IS the continuity. And its not about patience, its about a reasonable gestation period in which to build a team. Phil asked for five years. Let's assume he knows his stuff.

Every time I read one of your posts I just feel the need to say that the DELUSION RUNS VERY DEEP AT MSG

Look you need to separate out the disappointment in the W-L record from the team improvement process. EVERYBODY hates the losses. Its what you do about losing that matters.

Team building is not an art or science. Its a risky business based on trust relationships. Phil trusted Melo to take this team to the playoffs and they showed early on that they could win. What's hard here? The talent is there.

I mean what kind of idiot decides, "Wow we're winning. NOW is the time to show my displeasure with system basketball." I mean seriously! Jaws at MSG drop at the logic. And the players union is upset someone mentions it???

misterearl
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4/20/2017  5:48 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  5:49 AM
And then there is this

"I don't give a f--- about the line. We lost."

- Russell Westbrook on posting NBA's first postseason 50-point triple-double

My kingdom for a Knicks player whose flame to win burns this bright. Jus' sayin'

once a knick always a knick
holfresh
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4/20/2017  7:12 AM
fwk00 wrote:
holfresh wrote:You know what really upset me..Phil didn't have the respect to assure the fans about anything all year..He was asked about it as the press conference..He responded by asking the reporter if he was a fan..

You must be heartbroken.

Yeah I happen to give a ****...

HofstraBBall
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4/20/2017  7:20 AM
fwk00 wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
misterearl wrote:Thinking about the number of former Knicks scattered around the NBA, and the unrest with Portzingis deliberately avoiding his post season sit down with Phil Jackson, the dissension is a recurring theme.

JR Smith, Channing Frye, Robin Lopez, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, Tim Hardaway Jr., Timofey Mozgov are all still productive players.

Kurt Rambis, holdover from the previous head coach, has a questionable standing with his players. Notice a theme here?

Until the Knicks, as a franchise, heal their issues with continuity. leadership and cohesion from the top down - the franchise will be doomed to mediocrity. Period. End of story.

Earl, players get traded and get around. This isn't different for any other teams. In fact the number of Spurs around the league on teams that don't win is equally striking. So I don't think you can extrapolate a theory about this that would prove conclusive. None of those players are game-changers where they're at. Not a one. After Melo leaves, he won't be either.

Porzingis, IMO, is making a big mistake that will bite him in the ass the next time he does it. He has to be careful while he's riding high not to forget he may not always be riding high. Burning bridges is not always a great idea.

The "dissent" seems to all come from one cohort on the Knicks - the Melo-centric one. How else could anyone explain Rose desiring to come back when talking to [the presumably hated, reviled, triangle devil, satanic holder of eleven rings] Phil Jackson. I mean, one would expect Phil to say to the dissident Rose - "you'll be back over my dead body."
Instead Phil expressed respect. The dissent narrative sure sounds fishy in this context.

Then there's the media driven meme that Porzingis has doubts about the "triangle". Yet when watching his buddy Hernangomez reach career high numbers in closing games, Porzingis had a big smile on his face. And those players sure looked happy out there (a sure sign they must hate it, the coaches, Phil, Dolan, everything triangle - not to mention their confusion about the direction of the team - how could it be this easy and so much fun?).

Based on Phil's recent comments, he [Phil] watches the game films, comments on defense, and Rambis and the coaches pass it along. I think you have to figure out who hates defense and triangulate that as the person/persons who mistake Rambis for the message.

I think Phil IS the continuity. And its not about patience, its about a reasonable gestation period in which to build a team. Phil asked for five years. Let's assume he knows his stuff.

Every time I read one of your posts I just feel the need to say that the DELUSION RUNS VERY DEEP AT MSG

Look you need to separate out the disappointment in the W-L record from the team improvement process. EVERYBODY hates the losses. Its what you do about losing that matters.

Team building is not an art or science. Its a risky business based on trust relationships. Phil trusted Melo to take this team to the playoffs and they showed early on that they could win. What's hard here? The talent is there.

I mean what kind of idiot decides, "Wow we're winning. NOW is the time to show my displeasure with system basketball." I mean seriously! Jaws at MSG drop at the logic. And the players union is upset someone mentions it???

The W-L record may be just be a small hint that the leadershio is flawed. But ok, lets take that criteria off the table. How is the current state of our roster continuity. team chemistry, player sentiment and perception of the organization? Things presidents are responsible for improving. You can't keep saying we are being lead in the right direction based on someone failing and picking up good positions in draft. Specially when his first two picks are no longer with tgevteam and his best has just shown he can't wait to be out the door.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
GustavBahler
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4/20/2017  7:53 AM
The only continuity we're seeing comes from fans who are willing to pay through the nose for tickets regardless of the product on the floor. That drives everything, including the losing. If the Knicks were playing consistently to a half empty arena (or less) Dolan would have more of a sense of urgency about one losing season after another.

Until all the losing starts eating into the profits, makes the Knicks fall from their perch as the most valuable franchise in the league, I doubt anything really changes long term.

holfresh
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4/20/2017  7:57 AM
GustavBahler wrote:The only continuity we're seeing comes from fans who are willing to pay through the nose for tickets regardless of the product on the floor. That drives everything, including the losing. If the Knicks were playing consistently to a half empty arena (or less) Dolan would have more of a sense of urgency about one losing season after another.

Until all the losing starts eating into the profits, makes the Knicks fall from their perch as the most valuable franchise in the league, I doubt anything really changes long term.

It's a great destination for families and kids...It's really family oriented if you live in the city that offers something for everyone of all ages..Not sure if winning is the reason these people buy tickets...

Nalod
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4/20/2017  8:03 AM
Player turn over is the attempt to mine some quality from depleted system that valued little continuity. Isiah valued Steve francis over Ariza is just one example, and Reezy is still in the league, in the playoffs. Its one thing to trade and receive some value in return. That adds up year after year. Phil had little to work with the last few years.
We tend to follow knicks more than others so ex knicks stand out more. Crawford has played for a few more teams than just ours, but he is a reminder of a failed era. Actually, Craw is about 3-4 era's past!!!

The Bulls had two distinct era's under Phil and only Jordan/pippen were there for the 9 years phil was head coach. Many players came thru during those days. Same for the Lakers with Kobe being the mainstay.

What you had was same owner and GM/president/Coach during each of those era's. It would work best when phil steps down there is an internal transfer which continues what is then a winning formula.

Anger sells, don't buy!
holfresh
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4/20/2017  8:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  8:22 AM
Nalod wrote:Player turn over is the attempt to mine some quality from depleted system that valued little continuity. Isiah valued Steve francis over Ariza is just one example, and Reezy is still in the league, in the playoffs. Its one thing to trade and receive some value in return. That adds up year after year. Phil had little to work with the last few years.
We tend to follow knicks more than others so ex knicks stand out more. Crawford has played for a few more teams than just ours, but he is a reminder of a failed era. Actually, Craw is about 3-4 era's past!!!

The Bulls had two distinct era's under Phil and only Jordan/pippen were there for the 9 years phil was head coach. Many players came thru during those days. Same for the Lakers with Kobe being the mainstay.

What you had was same owner and GM/president/Coach during each of those era's. It would work best when phil steps down there is an internal transfer which continues what is then a winning formula.


That was Larry Brown who said he later apologized to Ariza..
GustavBahler
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4/20/2017  8:53 AM
holfresh wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:The only continuity we're seeing comes from fans who are willing to pay through the nose for tickets regardless of the product on the floor. That drives everything, including the losing. If the Knicks were playing consistently to a half empty arena (or less) Dolan would have more of a sense of urgency about one losing season after another.

Until all the losing starts eating into the profits, makes the Knicks fall from their perch as the most valuable franchise in the league, I doubt anything really changes long term.

It's a great destination for families and kids...It's really family oriented if you live in the city that offers something for everyone of all ages..Not sure if winning is the reason these people buy tickets...

Have fond memories of my frequent trips to the Garden back in the day. I know what a great experience it is. I would be curious to see some polling on who goes to Knicks games, and how many are tourists, hardcore fans, or just want to be seen? Would make for an interesting discussion if we had the results. If anyone knows of such polling, please share it.

holfresh
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4/20/2017  9:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  9:09 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
holfresh wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:The only continuity we're seeing comes from fans who are willing to pay through the nose for tickets regardless of the product on the floor. That drives everything, including the losing. If the Knicks were playing consistently to a half empty arena (or less) Dolan would have more of a sense of urgency about one losing season after another.

Until all the losing starts eating into the profits, makes the Knicks fall from their perch as the most valuable franchise in the league, I doubt anything really changes long term.

It's a great destination for families and kids...It's really family oriented if you live in the city that offers something for everyone of all ages..Not sure if winning is the reason these people buy tickets...

Have fond memories of my frequent trips to the Garden back in the day. I know what a great experience it is. I would be curious to see some polling on who goes to Knicks games, and how many are tourists, hardcore fans, or just want to be seen? Would make for an interesting discussion if we had the results. If anyone knows of such polling, please share it.

I went once this year and my son and he wanted us to get season tickets..I saw lots of families with kids my son's age having a great time...Kids were about the halls going to concession stands which I thought was cool and appeared to be a comfortable setting for them... That was my big takeaway..I also saw lots of families in the parking garage after the game who were at the game...I immediately thought Dolan had this locked in...

It wasn't your typical rowdy crowd/fan scene...I also saw lots of you ladies with friends having a beer at the game...In their 20s and 30s..

misterearl
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4/20/2017  9:43 AM
Burning Question: Are the Knicks just another Broadway show?
once a knick always a knick
holfresh
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4/20/2017  9:46 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/20/2017  9:47 AM
misterearl wrote:Burning Question: Are the Knicks just another Broadway show?

From whose perspective, Dolan or us??..Phil is just another show piece...

fishmike
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4/20/2017  10:02 AM
continuity doesnt help when the players stink.
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Is Internal Continuity (patience)Our Worst Enemy?

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