Knickoftime wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:LOL

Does anyone think the Knicks will get Avery Bradley Jae Crowder adn a pick for Carmelo--that is insane. Whether or not the Bost coaches mightve thought so at the trade deadline--the guy who counts--D Ainge---will NEVER do that. IF anything I think what we are seeing is stay the course bring in a high caliber draft pick--integrate both Brown and that draft pick in with the use of free agency. Boston DOES not need Carmelo

I think the trade to be made was Amir Johnson, Jerebko, Jalen Brown and a pick.... that ship is sailed... Boston would not be the same team without Avery and Crowder both gone.

Trading Melo at the deadline for expiring contracts and a high first round pick in 2017 and 2018 would have been a fantastic deal for the Knicks. But it would have required Ainge to really want to upend the Cavs and GSW this year by adding a fading All Star. Unfortunately for us, Ainge stayed prudent. We will never get anywhere close to such a package for Melo anymore, we needed a desperate trading partner for a decent deal, and no one is going to be desperate this summer.

Clippers look pretty desperate to me and I think the better the Celtics do the more likely Ainge will double down for the right piece to make them complete.

For example a 3 way trade between Clippers, Knicks, and Celtics that sends Blake to Boston, Melo and Lee to the Clippers, and this years Nyets pick, the 2021 Clippers pick and austin Rivers to NY is mathematically feasible and the environment is actually helping to set it up.

Clippers need to make major changes to their team, but don't have the assets to bottom out, plus their best players are FA. They also need to shed some salary and try and replace Reddick who is likely going to leave. Melo and Lee helps them become a better team now and in 2 years they would have money to replace Melo with a younger player(s) when Melo becomes a FA.

Celtics might make it to the ECF and will not have enough fire power to beat the Cavs (and need a rebounder like Blake desperately). Ainge knows from experience that you got to go all in to win a championship when the opportunity presents itself. With all the best wing players likely not making the move to Boston, they can simply not resign Amir Johnson. Jarekbo, and Olynyk and trade Zeller along with this years draft pick for Blake in a S&T and they would be early favorites to win a championship. Hell the Cavs biggest weakness is their bigs and blake would destroy them. I don't even think the knicks would ask for next years pick which fits in line with Ainge's notorious stingyness.

Knicks want to go young and 2 picks and Austin Rivers would be a God send, especially if one of them is a top 3 and they can keep their top 7.

Next years line up

Rivers
Ntilkina
J. Jackson
Kp
Willy

and then they tank again and get Doncic to be their 6th man. Its a long shot, but if it worked the knicks would be built to become a top contender eventually as long as everyone stayed healthy.

Neither Blake Griffin or Melo are worth that 2017 pick and Melo, in particular, is no longer worth an elite draft pick outright. The reality is that he only has a window of 3 or so seasons, whereas an elite draft pick could give up a decade worth of all-star play. The best we can hope for are pick swaps in the distant future, which I believe a feeble-minded GM like Doc Rivers would agree to do. I'd target their 2020 and/or 2021 first round pick for a pick swap.

Also, I think you are vastly overrating the Celtics. With or without Blake, they would not be close to being a true contender. Did you not just see them struggle against a ****ty Bulls team. If that Rondo injury did not occur, it'd gone 7 and who knows who would have won it. But I do think Danny Ainge will try to upgrade their roster to remain competitive.

The scenario is Melo for Blake and then Blake to the Celtics for bench players (like Zeller who isn't even getting playoff minutes) and a pick in a year that doesn't quite fit their current team's need or contending window

Blake is worth that pick as a 28 year old PF (in his prime) who fits their teams championship window and fulfills their need for another playmakers and rebounder.

IT
Avery
Crowder
Blake
Horford

is a lineup that could actually come out the East against Lebron. Also the reason they struggled against the bulls was Rondo's defense on IT made it hard for them to score because he is their only legit playmaker. Horford just put up a great game and they whupped the Wizards ass. Blake is the type of player to always put up a great game if he is healthy.

All 3 of the top picks have issues in regard to the Celtics current roster, Fultz is clearly the best player but we know from history IT doesn't like having another ball handler in the back court with him. Jackson is a SF who will likely need 2-3 seasons to be as good as Crowder and doesn't help their issue with the need for a playmaker and rebounder, and Ball has the same issues as Fultz but off the court concerns due to his fathers influence on him.

So why wouldn't the Celtics trade their bench players and just 1 of 2 of their Nyets picks to make a dramatic upgrade to their Front Court this year? With the second Nyets pick they could still make another trade to upgrade their roster as well or get a player in a draft full of potential stud centers at the top that could actually fit into what their team needs.

Blake seems to be injured for almost as many games that he's eligible to play in. He's been a fairly skilled player but what makes him truly special is his athleticism...and who knows how long he'll be that athletic moving forward. IMO, he's already lost a step and age doesn't help this issue. So no, he's no longer worth a blue chip lottery pick especially when the Celtics could easily clear cap space to sign him outright as a free agent.

You keep hyping the Celtics but are failing to acknowledge that the Clippers have had better players with Blake and look how far they've gone. They are certainly not getting out of the East against LeBron when teams like a dysfunctional Rockets team would oust them.

Thing is Boston will give Clevland all they have right now as is.... the idea to pass Blake to Boston for that #1 is a fantastic idea. Boston can't expect to compete for a championship with the current group by chipping away with an over achieving bunch. Griffin solidifies their club.... drafting Fultz or any of the small fwds doesn't help them. Thet have guards and forwards already. They need stud Power fwd. I disagree about Griffin being only effective cuz of his athleticism. This guy is a great passer from his position sand shoots the ball very well. He's a missing puzzle piece for them.

The Clippers need to reload around CP3. Cp3 wants guys to shoot the passes he gives them. Too often Griffin is passing the ball back. Melo is not passing up tough shots. You find a power fwd that can compete on the boards and shoot and you go to war. There are options there for them.

THE Knicks need that #1 pick...if thet are trading Melo and getting back trash, they need that pick. Fultz would be perfect at lead guard for us. You add that to the probable #7 pick and the Knicks have something special Brewing. Just imagine a core of KP, Willy, Fultz... maybe give Lauri a shot. Roll with Baker and Randle. Put out Lauri, Kuz, KP, Baker, Fultz... Willy, Randle...add the second round pick. Throw the vets in the mix... I mean the world is your oyster.

Speak it into existence

The problem is that both Isaiah Thomas and Blake are eligible for extensions this summer. So for one thing, the trade would have to happen at the draft. For another, Boston would have to commit to investing $60M to $70M annually in Blake and Isaiah Thomas... not saying they wouldn't... but that's an all-in move. Boston in their other moves has seemed content to build for the next decade via the draft, while remaining competitive in this decade. Maybe if they almost beat Cleveland they change their mind? Would Blake help them get by the Warriors?

But getting nobody is doing what for them? They turn this Nets pick into Blake Griffin and still have that late 1st rounder.

Again, why can't they just sign Griffin outright?

Because then that would **** up the plans man!

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I am likely missing something obvious, but considering Celtics have about $33m in projected cap space, and Griffen can be a UFA, would be they need to Knicks to facilitate acquiring Griffen?

Is it so Griffen can get the larger Clippers new contract in a S&T?

CP3 would more likely want to play with Melo than avery Bradley and rookies.

For them to stay relevant in a market like LA (where most fans are secretly waiting for the Lakers to be good again) they need star power.

Melo would be the only player in that trade who could likely get the Clippers into a deep run. Plus the Knicks could also send lee for Austin (that works for the Clippers) for maybe a protected 2021 pick back.

Also the Knicks would be the only team willing to take trash for Picks. So Zeller and 1 to 2 picks For a player of Blakes level. Clipper would likely need more to do the trade that the Celtics are hesitant to do because they want to keep their team together. Rumor was the Celtics offered picks(s) for Butler but Chicago wisely said they needed players back to build their roster cause they didn't want to tank. NY is likely tanking so that wouldn't hold up a trade.

What I'm asking is why can't the Celtics just sign Griffen as an UFA themselves and keep their picks?

I believe they can't max him. The CBA changed specifically so players wouldn't just leave to form super teams and their original teams get nothing of value back. Blake could leave the Clippers and just go to the Celtics but it would be him leaving an extra year and 45 million overall on the table. It's in Blake's bank accounts interest to sign with the Clippers and then if possible be traded to another team.

Also here is a good article on why this trade makes sense, and it's easier to do now than at the deadline (in 1 or 2 parts) because Rose won't be on the roster meaning Blake could be on the Knicks roster officially (a obscure CBA rule meant they couldn't trade for Blake with Rose on the roster) before being moved to Boston. Also with Reddick likely to leave now, Lee become a even valuable add on in the trade as a starter for the Clippers. Lastly the Celtics may have been iffy about trading for Blake because he wasn't under contract whereas if he re-ups with the Clippers and gets sent to the Celtics he will be under contract for 5 years. This trade actually makes more sense now for everyone involved than before the trade deadline.

https://theringer.com/los-angeles-clippers-carmelo-anthony-blake-griffin-6af81123cba5

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I am likely missing something obvious, but considering Celtics have about $33m in projected cap space, and Griffen can be a UFA, would be they need to Knicks to facilitate acquiring Griffen?

Is it so Griffen can get the larger Clippers new contract in a S&T?

CP3 would more likely want to play with Melo than avery Bradley and rookies.

For them to stay relevant in a market like LA (where most fans are secretly waiting for the Lakers to be good again) they need star power.

Melo would be the only player in that trade who could likely get the Clippers into a deep run. Plus the Knicks could also send lee for Austin (that works for the Clippers) for maybe a protected 2021 pick back.

Also the Knicks would be the only team willing to take trash for Picks. So Zeller and 1 to 2 picks For a player of Blakes level. Clipper would likely need more to do the trade that the Celtics are hesitant to do because they want to keep their team together. Rumor was the Celtics offered picks(s) for Butler but Chicago wisely said they needed players back to build their roster cause they didn't want to tank. NY is likely tanking so that wouldn't hold up a trade.

What I'm asking is why can't the Celtics just sign Griffen as an UFA themselves and keep their picks?

I believe they can't max him. The CBA changed specifically so players wouldn't just leave to form super teams and their original teams get nothing of value back. Blake could leave the Clippers and just go to the Celtics but it would be him leaving an extra year and 45 million overall on the table. It's in Blake's bank accounts interest to sign with the Clippers and then if possible be traded to another team.

Also here is a good article on why this trade makes sense, and it's easier to do now than at the deadline (in 1 or 2 parts) because Rose won't be on the roster meaning Blake could be on the Knicks roster officially (a obscure CBA rule meant they couldn't trade for Blake with Rose on the roster) before being moved to Boston. Also with Reddick likely to leave now, Lee become a even valuable add on in the trade as a starter for the Clippers. Lastly the Celtics may have been iffy about trading for Blake because he wasn't under contract whereas if he re-ups with the Clippers and gets sent to the Celtics he will be under contract for 5 years. This trade actually makes more sense now for everyone involved than before the trade deadline.

https://theringer.com/los-angeles-clippers-carmelo-anthony-blake-griffin-6af81123cba5

Yeah, that seems like a LOT of hoops to jump through, and it seems to be happening on behalf of the Clippers and Knicks.

I totally get Griffin can't get the same deal as a UFA, that is relevant and a factor, but that's still a lot to ask the Celtics to give up for the privilege of paying Griffin more.

They have other, nearly limitless options.

They can turn their attention to Heyward. With all their picks (mayne the next #1s) assuring an opportunity for a future beyond Horford, they can try to max out his time left and reunite him with Milsap.

Hell, a Melo for Crowder swap and keeping all the draft picks might be a better route than the oft-injured Griffin.

I'm just not seeing the math for the Celtics.

A lot of this is based on the idea that a lot of the other FA are just going to stay where they are at. Also while he isn't as popular now Blakes stats and skills actually fits what Boston needs at PF way more than what Butler and PG (and even Heyward) bring besides better health. As I said earlier his stats are comparable and in some cases better than all of those players.

In fact their current SF Crowder is on one of the best deals in the league based on his production and rumors are that he is the main point that stopped them trading for Butler.

As for Heyward over Crowder. Crowder was just as good, if not better than Hayward this year. Hayward scored more, sure, but he did it less efficiently than Jae. GH took 5 more shots a game, while playing a couple of minutes more per outing,with a much higher usage rating. Crowder had the better true shooting percentage, efg%, defensive rebounding rate, etc (seriously, look it up). Oh and most indicative data? Crowder had a better defensive AND offensive rating than Gordon this year, while being the 3rd/4th option on his team. Not to mention they have another potential stud SF Jaylen Brown on their bench.

They have the cap space to pay Blake. Who I have to say again (when healthy) fulfills their teams needs way more than any other FA this summer.

If they sent us a single pick that wouldn't stop them from seeking other trades for players or drafting more youth going forward (they have 6 first round picks in the next 3 years).

Hell I am a big believer that this years Nyets pick could be in play. I explained why earlier in this thread, but to recap due to none of the top players actually fitting what their tea needs (They have IT as PG, and two above average SF on cheap deals) and add to that the reality that a top pick doesn't always mean a top player. However lets say it is not in play for Blake. The Celtics have the Clippers 2019 pick. The could still send that to the knicks or send that 2019 pick back to the Clippers which would allow the Clippers to send the Knicks their 2018 pick. The Clippers 2018, 2021, Austin Rivers (for matching reasons) isn't the worse trade for a team to become a contender (which is what both the Clippers and Celtics are trying to do). I actually think Phil could hold out for more. They've made offers of multiple picks for other players before. Ainge offered a total of 7 draft picks to move up to draft Justise Winslow when they needed a SF. Your saying Phil cant get 2 first (one of which would get buried on their bench behind other players) for a top PF like Blake from the Celtic when the Celtics literally need a PF who can do what he does pass, initiate offense & rebound. Also keep in mind there are like maybe 5 guys in the whole league at PF who can do that at Blake's level?

I admit its a complicated scenario but its not that far out of the realm of possibility. Trades for guys like Melo will probably be complicated (look at what happened when he came to NY). The simpler the trade the more likely the knicks aren't getting a decent return.

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I am likely missing something obvious, but considering Celtics have about $33m in projected cap space, and Griffen can be a UFA, would be they need to Knicks to facilitate acquiring Griffen?

Is it so Griffen can get the larger Clippers new contract in a S&T?

CP3 would more likely want to play with Melo than avery Bradley and rookies.

For them to stay relevant in a market like LA (where most fans are secretly waiting for the Lakers to be good again) they need star power.

Melo would be the only player in that trade who could likely get the Clippers into a deep run. Plus the Knicks could also send lee for Austin (that works for the Clippers) for maybe a protected 2021 pick back.

Also the Knicks would be the only team willing to take trash for Picks. So Zeller and 1 to 2 picks For a player of Blakes level. Clipper would likely need more to do the trade that the Celtics are hesitant to do because they want to keep their team together. Rumor was the Celtics offered picks(s) for Butler but Chicago wisely said they needed players back to build their roster cause they didn't want to tank. NY is likely tanking so that wouldn't hold up a trade.

What I'm asking is why can't the Celtics just sign Griffen as an UFA themselves and keep their picks?

I believe they can't max him. The CBA changed specifically so players wouldn't just leave to form super teams and their original teams get nothing of value back. Blake could leave the Clippers and just go to the Celtics but it would be him leaving an extra year and 45 million overall on the table. It's in Blake's bank accounts interest to sign with the Clippers and then if possible be traded to another team.

Also here is a good article on why this trade makes sense, and it's easier to do now than at the deadline (in 1 or 2 parts) because Rose won't be on the roster meaning Blake could be on the Knicks roster officially (a obscure CBA rule meant they couldn't trade for Blake with Rose on the roster) before being moved to Boston. Also with Reddick likely to leave now, Lee become a even valuable add on in the trade as a starter for the Clippers. Lastly the Celtics may have been iffy about trading for Blake because he wasn't under contract whereas if he re-ups with the Clippers and gets sent to the Celtics he will be under contract for 5 years. This trade actually makes more sense now for everyone involved than before the trade deadline.

https://theringer.com/los-angeles-clippers-carmelo-anthony-blake-griffin-6af81123cba5

Yeah, that seems like a LOT of hoops to jump through, and it seems to be happening on behalf of the Clippers and Knicks.

I totally get Griffin can't get the same deal as a UFA, that is relevant and a factor, but that's still a lot to ask the Celtics to give up for the privilege of paying Griffin more.

They have other, nearly limitless options.

They can turn their attention to Heyward. With all their picks (mayne the next #1s) assuring an opportunity for a future beyond Horford, they can try to max out his time left and reunite him with Milsap.

Hell, a Melo for Crowder swap and keeping all the draft picks might be a better route than the oft-injured Griffin.

I'm just not seeing the math for the Celtics.

A lot of this is based on the idea that a lot of the other FA are just going to stay where they are at. Also while he isn't as popular now Blakes stats and skills actually fits what Boston needs at PF way more than what Butler and PG (and even Heyward) bring besides better health. As I said earlier his stats are comparable and in some cases better than all of those players.

In fact their current SF Crowder is on one of the best deals in the league based on his production and rumors are that he is the main point that stopped them trading for Butler.

As for Heyward over Crowder. Crowder was just as good, if not better than Hayward this year. Hayward scored more, sure, but he did it less efficiently than Jae. GH took 5 more shots a game, while playing a couple of minutes more per outing,with a much higher usage rating. Crowder had the better true shooting percentage, efg%, defensive rebounding rate, etc (seriously, look it up). Oh and most indicative data? Crowder had a better defensive AND offensive rating than Gordon this year, while being the 3rd/4th option on his team. Not to mention they have another potential stud SF Jaylen Brown on their bench.

They have the cap space to pay Blake. Who I have to say again (when healthy) fulfills their teams needs way more than any other FA this summer.

If they sent us a single pick that wouldn't stop them from seeking other trades for players or drafting more youth going forward (they have 6 first round picks in the next 3 years).

Hell I am a big believer that this years Nyets pick could be in play. I explained why earlier in this thread, but to recap due to none of the top players actually fitting what their tea needs (They have IT as PG, and two above average SF on cheap deals) and add to that the reality that a top pick doesn't always mean a top player. However lets say it is not in play for Blake. The Celtics have the Clippers 2019 pick. The could still send that to the knicks or send that 2019 pick back to the Clippers which would allow the Clippers to send the Knicks their 2018 pick. The Clippers 2018, 2021, Austin Rivers (for matching reasons) isn't the worse trade for a team to become a contender (which is what both the Clippers and Celtics are trying to do). I actually think Phil could hold out for more. They've made offers of multiple picks for other players before. Ainge offered a total of 7 draft picks to move up to draft Justise Winslow when they needed a SF. Your saying Phil cant get 2 first (one of which would get buried on their bench behind other players) for a top PF like Blake from the Celtic when the Celtics literally need a PF who can do what he does pass, initiate offense & rebound. Also keep in mind there are like maybe 5 guys in the whole league at PF who can do that at Blake's level?

I admit its a complicated scenario but its not that far out of the realm of possibility. Trades for guys like Melo will probably be complicated (look at what happened when he came to NY). The simpler the trade the more likely the knicks aren't getting a decent return.

That's my point. I think fans are motivated to make this complicated to justify the Knicks winning in the scenario.

You got the Knicks dangling Melo over both the Clippers AND Griffin AND the Celtics in order to unlock what all three parties cherish. And at the same time Griffin would be hanging it over the Celtics simply for more money.

i can't even imagine the mechanism of how that all works with human beings involved in all the hostage holding.

Sometimes transactions in sports don't happen not because they don't make sense, but because people with egos and feelings have to facilitate them.

Griffin can stay in LA ... either one likely .... and is widely speculated to prefer the BIGGEST market(s) for his showbiz interests.

If he is THAT motivated to change coasts and conferences to move to a smaller market because he believes in the Celtics roster that much, seems to me he might just be motivated to forego that extra year.

That isn't unprecedented. Not every player goes for the 5th year.

The amount of money he would be leaving is unprecedented though 130 mil for 4 years instead of 175 mil for 5 years, just coming off of surgery.

Also a trade to the Celtics would not be on Griffin (which was the reason for the change in salary offerings). The CBA was designed to make Star FA work with their teams to move so teams didn't go from Boom to Bust like the Cavs did when Lebron left. However, it could also work that the team doesn't need or want his imput on if they move him, they just need to sign him to move him and can treat his FA as such. As long as he values the money (and extra year of financial security), his move would be based on what the Clippers want which is why I've focused on the teams goals more than Griffin's.

The Clippers (with CP3 approval) would likely be better if they did a Melo trade. Even people who hate the knicks like Simmon admitted that. Melo skill set is what they are missing, and the knicks could send over additional asset in a trade (like Lee) that the Clippers cannot afford in FA due to their current cap limitations. Honestly half the reason the clippers could be focused on signing Blake first (as it seems they are) is it gives them a mechanism to trade for Melo and potentially keep CP3 there if CP3 wants them to become better in order for him to stay. CP3 is already said to be looking at other teams to and he is the better of the two players.

The Celtics and Clippers as teams both want to improve to be in the legit contender status, the Knicks want assets to build around KP (and justify why were bad). Blake wants money, Melo wants to play with CP3 in a major market, CP3 wants to get paid, but for his career sake needs to at least make a WCF once. A Melo for Blake for Picks trade lets everyone win. I am not saying it will happen (imagine the knicks getting a good trade for once) but its a good, potential scenario.

The first thing I think we can learn from is culture and how to build culture. Boston has some really great guys to run the locker-room. Guys like Crowder and Amir Johnson and before that guys like Brandon Bass are really important had have been during the whole period. At the same time the team hasn't tried to make massive trades for big stars until they signed Horford who hasn't got the big star mentality - he simply fits in.

I think one of the great problems in New York is Melo and Rose who are both have a whole different mentality. They have a "to great for this world" - attitude now and then and that is not good on a rebuilding team. That is why I think we shouldn't resign Rose and we should try to get as much as we can for Melo - Clippers and Bulls would be great places to land, especially if the rumour that Boston might be trading for Rose.

Another thing I think Knicks can learn from Celtics is to give talents who are misfits on other teams a chance. The signing of Evan Turner was a great example of what Boston has done. He worked in the system and on the team without great stars, but now he is again a misfit. I also think Thomas would have problems in other systems and you can probably say the same for several different players.

Then you can't ignore the many assets they have got in picks and youngsters. That will be valuable in the near future.

What should we then do to "become" the Celtics:

1st step - trade assets to get harmony and more assets

We should trade Melo and we might get a 1st for him. If traded to Clippers we could also get Rivers and Crawford

Maybe also trade Porzingis(he seems unhappy) if we can get a great deal - I'm thinking Boston - I'm thinking Crowder and 2 first+ multiple seconds maybe also Rozier. I don't think we can get the Nets picks.

2nd step - Sign roleplayers/locker-room guys

If we get Crowder that's one, but also try to get a vet like Amir Johnson on a minimum would be great, because of his presence in the locker room.

3rd sted - sign misfits

I have no idea who at the moment

4th - wait

Wait until Noahs contract is out! Lees contract is also an overpay in the future

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I am likely missing something obvious, but considering Celtics have about $33m in projected cap space, and Griffen can be a UFA, would be they need to Knicks to facilitate acquiring Griffen?

Is it so Griffen can get the larger Clippers new contract in a S&T?

CP3 would more likely want to play with Melo than avery Bradley and rookies.

For them to stay relevant in a market like LA (where most fans are secretly waiting for the Lakers to be good again) they need star power.

Melo would be the only player in that trade who could likely get the Clippers into a deep run. Plus the Knicks could also send lee for Austin (that works for the Clippers) for maybe a protected 2021 pick back.

Also the Knicks would be the only team willing to take trash for Picks. So Zeller and 1 to 2 picks For a player of Blakes level. Clipper would likely need more to do the trade that the Celtics are hesitant to do because they want to keep their team together. Rumor was the Celtics offered picks(s) for Butler but Chicago wisely said they needed players back to build their roster cause they didn't want to tank. NY is likely tanking so that wouldn't hold up a trade.

What I'm asking is why can't the Celtics just sign Griffen as an UFA themselves and keep their picks?

I believe they can't max him. The CBA changed specifically so players wouldn't just leave to form super teams and their original teams get nothing of value back. Blake could leave the Clippers and just go to the Celtics but it would be him leaving an extra year and 45 million overall on the table. It's in Blake's bank accounts interest to sign with the Clippers and then if possible be traded to another team.

Also here is a good article on why this trade makes sense, and it's easier to do now than at the deadline (in 1 or 2 parts) because Rose won't be on the roster meaning Blake could be on the Knicks roster officially (a obscure CBA rule meant they couldn't trade for Blake with Rose on the roster) before being moved to Boston. Also with Reddick likely to leave now, Lee become a even valuable add on in the trade as a starter for the Clippers. Lastly the Celtics may have been iffy about trading for Blake because he wasn't under contract whereas if he re-ups with the Clippers and gets sent to the Celtics he will be under contract for 5 years. This trade actually makes more sense now for everyone involved than before the trade deadline.

https://theringer.com/los-angeles-clippers-carmelo-anthony-blake-griffin-6af81123cba5

Yeah, that seems like a LOT of hoops to jump through, and it seems to be happening on behalf of the Clippers and Knicks.

I totally get Griffin can't get the same deal as a UFA, that is relevant and a factor, but that's still a lot to ask the Celtics to give up for the privilege of paying Griffin more.

They have other, nearly limitless options.

They can turn their attention to Heyward. With all their picks (mayne the next #1s) assuring an opportunity for a future beyond Horford, they can try to max out his time left and reunite him with Milsap.

Hell, a Melo for Crowder swap and keeping all the draft picks might be a better route than the oft-injured Griffin.

I'm just not seeing the math for the Celtics.

A lot of this is based on the idea that a lot of the other FA are just going to stay where they are at. Also while he isn't as popular now Blakes stats and skills actually fits what Boston needs at PF way more than what Butler and PG (and even Heyward) bring besides better health. As I said earlier his stats are comparable and in some cases better than all of those players.

In fact their current SF Crowder is on one of the best deals in the league based on his production and rumors are that he is the main point that stopped them trading for Butler.

As for Heyward over Crowder. Crowder was just as good, if not better than Hayward this year. Hayward scored more, sure, but he did it less efficiently than Jae. GH took 5 more shots a game, while playing a couple of minutes more per outing,with a much higher usage rating. Crowder had the better true shooting percentage, efg%, defensive rebounding rate, etc (seriously, look it up). Oh and most indicative data? Crowder had a better defensive AND offensive rating than Gordon this year, while being the 3rd/4th option on his team. Not to mention they have another potential stud SF Jaylen Brown on their bench.

They have the cap space to pay Blake. Who I have to say again (when healthy) fulfills their teams needs way more than any other FA this summer.

If they sent us a single pick that wouldn't stop them from seeking other trades for players or drafting more youth going forward (they have 6 first round picks in the next 3 years).

Hell I am a big believer that this years Nyets pick could be in play. I explained why earlier in this thread, but to recap due to none of the top players actually fitting what their tea needs (They have IT as PG, and two above average SF on cheap deals) and add to that the reality that a top pick doesn't always mean a top player. However lets say it is not in play for Blake. The Celtics have the Clippers 2019 pick. The could still send that to the knicks or send that 2019 pick back to the Clippers which would allow the Clippers to send the Knicks their 2018 pick. The Clippers 2018, 2021, Austin Rivers (for matching reasons) isn't the worse trade for a team to become a contender (which is what both the Clippers and Celtics are trying to do). I actually think Phil could hold out for more. They've made offers of multiple picks for other players before. Ainge offered a total of 7 draft picks to move up to draft Justise Winslow when they needed a SF. Your saying Phil cant get 2 first (one of which would get buried on their bench behind other players) for a top PF like Blake from the Celtic when the Celtics literally need a PF who can do what he does pass, initiate offense & rebound. Also keep in mind there are like maybe 5 guys in the whole league at PF who can do that at Blake's level?

I admit its a complicated scenario but its not that far out of the realm of possibility. Trades for guys like Melo will probably be complicated (look at what happened when he came to NY). The simpler the trade the more likely the knicks aren't getting a decent return.

That's my point. I think fans are motivated to make this complicated to justify the Knicks winning in the scenario.

You got the Knicks dangling Melo over both the Clippers AND Griffin AND the Celtics in order to unlock what all three parties cherish. And at the same time Griffin would be hanging it over the Celtics simply for more money.

i can't even imagine the mechanism of how that all works with human beings involved in all the hostage holding.

Sometimes transactions in sports don't happen not because they don't make sense, but because people with egos and feelings have to facilitate them.

Griffin can stay in LA ... either one likely .... and is widely speculated to prefer the BIGGEST market(s) for his showbiz interests.

If he is THAT motivated to change coasts and conferences to move to a smaller market because he believes in the Celtics roster that much, seems to me he might just be motivated to forego that extra year.

That isn't unprecedented. Not every player goes for the 5th year.

The amount of money he would be leaving is unprecedented though 130 mil for 4 years instead of 175 mil for 5 years, just coming off of surgery.

Also a trade to the Celtics would not be on Griffin (which was the reason for the change in salary offerings). The CBA was designed to make Star FA work with their teams to move so teams didn't go from Boom to Bust like the Cavs did when Lebron left. However, it could also work that the team doesn't need or want his imput on if they move him, they just need to sign him to move him and can treat his FA as such. As long as he values the money (and extra year of financial security), his move would be based on what the Clippers want which is why I've focused on the teams goals more than Griffin's.

The Clippers (with CP3 approval) would likely be better if they did a Melo trade. Even people who hate the knicks like Simmon admitted that. Melo skill set is what they are missing, and the knicks could send over additional asset in a trade (like Lee) that the Clippers cannot afford in FA due to their current cap limitations. Honestly half the reason the clippers could be focused on signing Blake first (as it seems they are) is it gives them a mechanism to trade for Melo and potentially keep CP3 there if CP3 wants them to become better in order for him to stay. CP3 is already said to be looking at other teams to and he is the better of the two players.

The Celtics and Clippers as teams both want to improve to be in the legit contender status, the Knicks want assets to build around KP (and justify why were bad). Blake wants money, Melo wants to play with CP3 in a major market, CP3 wants to get paid, but for his career sake needs to at least make a WCF once. A Melo for Blake for Picks trade lets everyone win. I am not saying it will happen (imagine the knicks getting a good trade for once) but its a good, potential scenario.

Wait, are you suggesting Griffin opts out, signs a new max deal, and then the Clipper trade him to Boston, with his cooperation being irrelevant?

CBA rules prohibit that.

That's what the money is for. Also who says no to getting paid Max money to go and play on a 1st seed team in a weaker conference?

No.

A trade and a sign and trade are too specific, different transactions in the NBA.

Griffin can only be sign and traded to the Celtics, a transaction he would not enter unless he approved this destination.

If the Clippers just outright sign him, it does not matter if Griffin would be satisfied with his money, the CBA would prevent the Clips from trading him until 12/15/2017.

The house of cards you've built is either illegal, or assuming Griffin will just sit back and allow himself to be traded anywhere so long as he gets his max deal.

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I am likely missing something obvious, but considering Celtics have about $33m in projected cap space, and Griffen can be a UFA, would be they need to Knicks to facilitate acquiring Griffen?

Is it so Griffen can get the larger Clippers new contract in a S&T?

CP3 would more likely want to play with Melo than avery Bradley and rookies.

For them to stay relevant in a market like LA (where most fans are secretly waiting for the Lakers to be good again) they need star power.

Melo would be the only player in that trade who could likely get the Clippers into a deep run. Plus the Knicks could also send lee for Austin (that works for the Clippers) for maybe a protected 2021 pick back.

Also the Knicks would be the only team willing to take trash for Picks. So Zeller and 1 to 2 picks For a player of Blakes level. Clipper would likely need more to do the trade that the Celtics are hesitant to do because they want to keep their team together. Rumor was the Celtics offered picks(s) for Butler but Chicago wisely said they needed players back to build their roster cause they didn't want to tank. NY is likely tanking so that wouldn't hold up a trade.

What I'm asking is why can't the Celtics just sign Griffen as an UFA themselves and keep their picks?

I believe they can't max him. The CBA changed specifically so players wouldn't just leave to form super teams and their original teams get nothing of value back. Blake could leave the Clippers and just go to the Celtics but it would be him leaving an extra year and 45 million overall on the table. It's in Blake's bank accounts interest to sign with the Clippers and then if possible be traded to another team.

Also here is a good article on why this trade makes sense, and it's easier to do now than at the deadline (in 1 or 2 parts) because Rose won't be on the roster meaning Blake could be on the Knicks roster officially (a obscure CBA rule meant they couldn't trade for Blake with Rose on the roster) before being moved to Boston. Also with Reddick likely to leave now, Lee become a even valuable add on in the trade as a starter for the Clippers. Lastly the Celtics may have been iffy about trading for Blake because he wasn't under contract whereas if he re-ups with the Clippers and gets sent to the Celtics he will be under contract for 5 years. This trade actually makes more sense now for everyone involved than before the trade deadline.

https://theringer.com/los-angeles-clippers-carmelo-anthony-blake-griffin-6af81123cba5

Yeah, that seems like a LOT of hoops to jump through, and it seems to be happening on behalf of the Clippers and Knicks.

I totally get Griffin can't get the same deal as a UFA, that is relevant and a factor, but that's still a lot to ask the Celtics to give up for the privilege of paying Griffin more.

They have other, nearly limitless options.

They can turn their attention to Heyward. With all their picks (mayne the next #1s) assuring an opportunity for a future beyond Horford, they can try to max out his time left and reunite him with Milsap.

Hell, a Melo for Crowder swap and keeping all the draft picks might be a better route than the oft-injured Griffin.

I'm just not seeing the math for the Celtics.

A lot of this is based on the idea that a lot of the other FA are just going to stay where they are at. Also while he isn't as popular now Blakes stats and skills actually fits what Boston needs at PF way more than what Butler and PG (and even Heyward) bring besides better health. As I said earlier his stats are comparable and in some cases better than all of those players.

In fact their current SF Crowder is on one of the best deals in the league based on his production and rumors are that he is the main point that stopped them trading for Butler.

As for Heyward over Crowder. Crowder was just as good, if not better than Hayward this year. Hayward scored more, sure, but he did it less efficiently than Jae. GH took 5 more shots a game, while playing a couple of minutes more per outing,with a much higher usage rating. Crowder had the better true shooting percentage, efg%, defensive rebounding rate, etc (seriously, look it up). Oh and most indicative data? Crowder had a better defensive AND offensive rating than Gordon this year, while being the 3rd/4th option on his team. Not to mention they have another potential stud SF Jaylen Brown on their bench.

They have the cap space to pay Blake. Who I have to say again (when healthy) fulfills their teams needs way more than any other FA this summer.

If they sent us a single pick that wouldn't stop them from seeking other trades for players or drafting more youth going forward (they have 6 first round picks in the next 3 years).

Hell I am a big believer that this years Nyets pick could be in play. I explained why earlier in this thread, but to recap due to none of the top players actually fitting what their tea needs (They have IT as PG, and two above average SF on cheap deals) and add to that the reality that a top pick doesn't always mean a top player. However lets say it is not in play for Blake. The Celtics have the Clippers 2019 pick. The could still send that to the knicks or send that 2019 pick back to the Clippers which would allow the Clippers to send the Knicks their 2018 pick. The Clippers 2018, 2021, Austin Rivers (for matching reasons) isn't the worse trade for a team to become a contender (which is what both the Clippers and Celtics are trying to do). I actually think Phil could hold out for more. They've made offers of multiple picks for other players before. Ainge offered a total of 7 draft picks to move up to draft Justise Winslow when they needed a SF. Your saying Phil cant get 2 first (one of which would get buried on their bench behind other players) for a top PF like Blake from the Celtic when the Celtics literally need a PF who can do what he does pass, initiate offense & rebound. Also keep in mind there are like maybe 5 guys in the whole league at PF who can do that at Blake's level?

I admit its a complicated scenario but its not that far out of the realm of possibility. Trades for guys like Melo will probably be complicated (look at what happened when he came to NY). The simpler the trade the more likely the knicks aren't getting a decent return.

That's my point. I think fans are motivated to make this complicated to justify the Knicks winning in the scenario.

You got the Knicks dangling Melo over both the Clippers AND Griffin AND the Celtics in order to unlock what all three parties cherish. And at the same time Griffin would be hanging it over the Celtics simply for more money.

i can't even imagine the mechanism of how that all works with human beings involved in all the hostage holding.

Sometimes transactions in sports don't happen not because they don't make sense, but because people with egos and feelings have to facilitate them.

Griffin can stay in LA ... either one likely .... and is widely speculated to prefer the BIGGEST market(s) for his showbiz interests.

If he is THAT motivated to change coasts and conferences to move to a smaller market because he believes in the Celtics roster that much, seems to me he might just be motivated to forego that extra year.

That isn't unprecedented. Not every player goes for the 5th year.

The amount of money he would be leaving is unprecedented though 130 mil for 4 years instead of 175 mil for 5 years, just coming off of surgery.

Also a trade to the Celtics would not be on Griffin (which was the reason for the change in salary offerings). The CBA was designed to make Star FA work with their teams to move so teams didn't go from Boom to Bust like the Cavs did when Lebron left. However, it could also work that the team doesn't need or want his imput on if they move him, they just need to sign him to move him and can treat his FA as such. As long as he values the money (and extra year of financial security), his move would be based on what the Clippers want which is why I've focused on the teams goals more than Griffin's.

The Clippers (with CP3 approval) would likely be better if they did a Melo trade. Even people who hate the knicks like Simmon admitted that. Melo skill set is what they are missing, and the knicks could send over additional asset in a trade (like Lee) that the Clippers cannot afford in FA due to their current cap limitations. Honestly half the reason the clippers could be focused on signing Blake first (as it seems they are) is it gives them a mechanism to trade for Melo and potentially keep CP3 there if CP3 wants them to become better in order for him to stay. CP3 is already said to be looking at other teams to and he is the better of the two players.

The Celtics and Clippers as teams both want to improve to be in the legit contender status, the Knicks want assets to build around KP (and justify why were bad). Blake wants money, Melo wants to play with CP3 in a major market, CP3 wants to get paid, but for his career sake needs to at least make a WCF once. A Melo for Blake for Picks trade lets everyone win. I am not saying it will happen (imagine the knicks getting a good trade for once) but its a good, potential scenario.

Wait, are you suggesting Griffin opts out, signs a new max deal, and then the Clipper trade him to Boston, with his cooperation being irrelevant?

CBA rules prohibit that.

That's what the money is for. Also who says no to getting paid Max money to go and play on a 1st seed team in a weaker conference?

No.

A trade and a sign and trade are too specific, different transactions in the NBA.

Griffin can only be sign and traded to the Celtics, a transaction he would not enter unless he approved this destination.

If the Clippers just outright sign him, it does not matter if Griffin would be satisfied with his money, the CBA would prevent the Clips from trading him until 12/15/2017.

The house of cards you've built is either illegal, or assuming Griffin will just sit back and allow himself to be traded anywhere so long as he gets his max deal.

Let me repeat myself "that's what the money is for" Clippers are the only people who can give him that money. If they say we will give you 45 million and an extra guaranteed year to play for the number 1 seed. Why would he say no?

I am not assuming he would come to the Knicks current train wreck for that money. I'm saying take 175 mil to play with a player who put up over 50 puts in a playoff game and a big in Horford who has a complimentary skill set.

The Celtics would be a better team for better money and if he did well he could reinvigorate his career. I am surprised your so closed minded at the potential for the trade.

I was responding to this...

Also a trade to the Celtics would not be on Griffin (which was the reason for the change in salary offerings). The CBA was designed to make Star FA work with their teams to move so teams didn't go from Boom to Bust like the Cavs did when Lebron left. However, it could also work that the team doesn't need or want his imput on if they move him, they just need to sign him to move him and can treat his FA as such. As long as he values the money (and extra year of financial security), his move would be based on what the Clippers want which is why I've focused on the teams goals more than Griffin's.

Whether or not the Celtics are a good team and a possible attractive destination for Griffin, you seemed to be arguing that didn't matter. That so long as he got this money his destination was more the Clippers choice than his.

They can' just "sign him and move him."

Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant by that.

wargames wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:LOL

Does anyone think the Knicks will get Avery Bradley Jae Crowder adn a pick for Carmelo--that is insane. Whether or not the Bost coaches mightve thought so at the trade deadline--the guy who counts--D Ainge---will NEVER do that. IF anything I think what we are seeing is stay the course bring in a high caliber draft pick--integrate both Brown and that draft pick in with the use of free agency. Boston DOES not need Carmelo

I think the trade to be made was Amir Johnson, Jerebko, Jalen Brown and a pick.... that ship is sailed... Boston would not be the same team without Avery and Crowder both gone.

Trading Melo at the deadline for expiring contracts and a high first round pick in 2017 and 2018 would have been a fantastic deal for the Knicks. But it would have required Ainge to really want to upend the Cavs and GSW this year by adding a fading All Star. Unfortunately for us, Ainge stayed prudent. We will never get anywhere close to such a package for Melo anymore, we needed a desperate trading partner for a decent deal, and no one is going to be desperate this summer.

Clippers look pretty desperate to me and I think the better the Celtics do the more likely Ainge will double down for the right piece to make them complete.

For example a 3 way trade between Clippers, Knicks, and Celtics that sends Blake to Boston, Melo and Lee to the Clippers, and this years Nyets pick, the 2021 Clippers pick and austin Rivers to NY is mathematically feasible and the environment is actually helping to set it up.

Clippers need to make major changes to their team, but don't have the assets to bottom out, plus their best players are FA. They also need to shed some salary and try and replace Reddick who is likely going to leave. Melo and Lee helps them become a better team now and in 2 years they would have money to replace Melo with a younger player(s) when Melo becomes a FA.

Celtics might make it to the ECF and will not have enough fire power to beat the Cavs (and need a rebounder like Blake desperately). Ainge knows from experience that you got to go all in to win a championship when the opportunity presents itself. With all the best wing players likely not making the move to Boston, they can simply not resign Amir Johnson. Jarekbo, and Olynyk and trade Zeller along with this years draft pick for Blake in a S&T and they would be early favorites to win a championship. Hell the Cavs biggest weakness is their bigs and blake would destroy them. I don't even think the knicks would ask for next years pick which fits in line with Ainge's notorious stingyness.

Knicks want to go young and 2 picks and Austin Rivers would be a God send, especially if one of them is a top 3 and they can keep their top 7.

Next years line up

Rivers
Ntilkina
J. Jackson
Kp
Willy

and then they tank again and get Doncic to be their 6th man. Its a long shot, but if it worked the knicks would be built to become a top contender eventually as long as everyone stayed healthy.

Neither Blake Griffin or Melo are worth that 2017 pick and Melo, in particular, is no longer worth an elite draft pick outright. The reality is that he only has a window of 3 or so seasons, whereas an elite draft pick could give up a decade worth of all-star play. The best we can hope for are pick swaps in the distant future, which I believe a feeble-minded GM like Doc Rivers would agree to do. I'd target their 2020 and/or 2021 first round pick for a pick swap.

Also, I think you are vastly overrating the Celtics. With or without Blake, they would not be close to being a true contender. Did you not just see them struggle against a ****ty Bulls team. If that Rondo injury did not occur, it'd gone 7 and who knows who would have won it. But I do think Danny Ainge will try to upgrade their roster to remain competitive.

The scenario is Melo for Blake and then Blake to the Celtics for bench players (like Zeller who isn't even getting playoff minutes) and a pick in a year that doesn't quite fit their current team's need or contending window

Blake is worth that pick as a 28 year old PF (in his prime) who fits their teams championship window and fulfills their need for another playmakers and rebounder.

IT
Avery
Crowder
Blake
Horford

is a lineup that could actually come out the East against Lebron. Also the reason they struggled against the bulls was Rondo's defense on IT made it hard for them to score because he is their only legit playmaker. Horford just put up a great game and they whupped the Wizards ass. Blake is the type of player to always put up a great game if he is healthy.

All 3 of the top picks have issues in regard to the Celtics current roster, Fultz is clearly the best player but we know from history IT doesn't like having another ball handler in the back court with him. Jackson is a SF who will likely need 2-3 seasons to be as good as Crowder and doesn't help their issue with the need for a playmaker and rebounder, and Ball has the same issues as Fultz but off the court concerns due to his fathers influence on him.

So why wouldn't the Celtics trade their bench players and just 1 of 2 of their Nyets picks to make a dramatic upgrade to their Front Court this year? With the second Nyets pick they could still make another trade to upgrade their roster as well or get a player in a draft full of potential stud centers at the top that could actually fit into what their team needs.

Blake seems to be injured for almost as many games that he's eligible to play in. He's been a fairly skilled played but what makes him truly special is his athleticism...and who knows how long he'll be that athletic moving forward. IMO, he's already lost a step and age doesn't help this issue. So no, he's no longer worth a draft pick especially when the Celtics could easily clear cap space to sign him outright.

You keep hyping the Celtics but are failing to acknowledge that the Clippers have had better players with Blake and look how far they've gone. They are certainly not getting out of the East against LeBron when teams like a dysfunctional Rockets team would oust them.

First the Celtics don't have the ability to sign him to a legit max. Only the Clippers can do that. Even injured he put 22 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists. He's not a liability on defense and a good argument could be made that pairing him with Jordan in the front court limited his potential since they operate in the same areas on the court (a problem he wouldn't have with Horford). He is two seasons away from being a top 3 player as well.

Also the Clippers are dysfunctional internally. Blake and CP3 are reported to not get along, which keeps them from having the chemistry needed to gel, not to mention that team is way to Top heavy. They have no real quality players outside of their big 3 and redick hitting outside shots because nobody focuses on him during the regular season. Melo to them actually makes them a better team for the next two years because Melo (who only missed 3 games last season due to injuries) actually gets along with CP3.

Hell even Bill Simmons in his last podcast (around the 20 minute mark) admitted that the Clippers should trade Blake for Melo.

Blake Griffin is 28 years old and his body is older still due to all the injuries on his body. It is highly probable that we've seen the best of Blake Griffin- the basketball player. He still has quite a bit to give to this game but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that he isn't the second coming Amar'e. Those injuries have been plentiful and will only get worse as he ages.

And yes, the Celtics do have the ability to sign a legit max player. According to Hoopshype, they will have a $70.5 million payroll and only 4 vacant roster spots that should create a $2 million cap hold. At $72.5 million, they'd have about $30 million to play with which is basically max. Should they need to create more cap space, Tyler Zeller could easily be pawned off to a team with cap space and that would create another $7.5 million for them to play with. So the Celtics DO have the money to offer Griffin.

wargames wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

wargames wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:LOL

Does anyone think the Knicks will get Avery Bradley Jae Crowder adn a pick for Carmelo--that is insane. Whether or not the Bost coaches mightve thought so at the trade deadline--the guy who counts--D Ainge---will NEVER do that. IF anything I think what we are seeing is stay the course bring in a high caliber draft pick--integrate both Brown and that draft pick in with the use of free agency. Boston DOES not need Carmelo

I think the trade to be made was Amir Johnson, Jerebko, Jalen Brown and a pick.... that ship is sailed... Boston would not be the same team without Avery and Crowder both gone.

Trading Melo at the deadline for expiring contracts and a high first round pick in 2017 and 2018 would have been a fantastic deal for the Knicks. But it would have required Ainge to really want to upend the Cavs and GSW this year by adding a fading All Star. Unfortunately for us, Ainge stayed prudent. We will never get anywhere close to such a package for Melo anymore, we needed a desperate trading partner for a decent deal, and no one is going to be desperate this summer.

Clippers look pretty desperate to me and I think the better the Celtics do the more likely Ainge will double down for the right piece to make them complete.

For example a 3 way trade between Clippers, Knicks, and Celtics that sends Blake to Boston, Melo and Lee to the Clippers, and this years Nyets pick, the 2021 Clippers pick and austin Rivers to NY is mathematically feasible and the environment is actually helping to set it up.

Clippers need to make major changes to their team, but don't have the assets to bottom out, plus their best players are FA. They also need to shed some salary and try and replace Reddick who is likely going to leave. Melo and Lee helps them become a better team now and in 2 years they would have money to replace Melo with a younger player(s) when Melo becomes a FA.

Celtics might make it to the ECF and will not have enough fire power to beat the Cavs (and need a rebounder like Blake desperately). Ainge knows from experience that you got to go all in to win a championship when the opportunity presents itself. With all the best wing players likely not making the move to Boston, they can simply not resign Amir Johnson. Jarekbo, and Olynyk and trade Zeller along with this years draft pick for Blake in a S&T and they would be early favorites to win a championship. Hell the Cavs biggest weakness is their bigs and blake would destroy them. I don't even think the knicks would ask for next years pick which fits in line with Ainge's notorious stingyness.

Knicks want to go young and 2 picks and Austin Rivers would be a God send, especially if one of them is a top 3 and they can keep their top 7.

Next years line up

Rivers
Ntilkina
J. Jackson
Kp
Willy

and then they tank again and get Doncic to be their 6th man. Its a long shot, but if it worked the knicks would be built to become a top contender eventually as long as everyone stayed healthy.

Neither Blake Griffin or Melo are worth that 2017 pick and Melo, in particular, is no longer worth an elite draft pick outright. The reality is that he only has a window of 3 or so seasons, whereas an elite draft pick could give up a decade worth of all-star play. The best we can hope for are pick swaps in the distant future, which I believe a feeble-minded GM like Doc Rivers would agree to do. I'd target their 2020 and/or 2021 first round pick for a pick swap.

Also, I think you are vastly overrating the Celtics. With or without Blake, they would not be close to being a true contender. Did you not just see them struggle against a ****ty Bulls team. If that Rondo injury did not occur, it'd gone 7 and who knows who would have won it. But I do think Danny Ainge will try to upgrade their roster to remain competitive.

The scenario is Melo for Blake and then Blake to the Celtics for bench players (like Zeller who isn't even getting playoff minutes) and a pick in a year that doesn't quite fit their current team's need or contending window

Blake is worth that pick as a 28 year old PF (in his prime) who fits their teams championship window and fulfills their need for another playmakers and rebounder.

IT
Avery
Crowder
Blake
Horford

is a lineup that could actually come out the East against Lebron. Also the reason they struggled against the bulls was Rondo's defense on IT made it hard for them to score because he is their only legit playmaker. Horford just put up a great game and they whupped the Wizards ass. Blake is the type of player to always put up a great game if he is healthy.

All 3 of the top picks have issues in regard to the Celtics current roster, Fultz is clearly the best player but we know from history IT doesn't like having another ball handler in the back court with him. Jackson is a SF who will likely need 2-3 seasons to be as good as Crowder and doesn't help their issue with the need for a playmaker and rebounder, and Ball has the same issues as Fultz but off the court concerns due to his fathers influence on him.

So why wouldn't the Celtics trade their bench players and just 1 of 2 of their Nyets picks to make a dramatic upgrade to their Front Court this year? With the second Nyets pick they could still make another trade to upgrade their roster as well or get a player in a draft full of potential stud centers at the top that could actually fit into what their team needs.

Blake seems to be injured for almost as many games that he's eligible to play in. He's been a fairly skilled player but what makes him truly special is his athleticism...and who knows how long he'll be that athletic moving forward. IMO, he's already lost a step and age doesn't help this issue. So no, he's no longer worth a blue chip lottery pick especially when the Celtics could easily clear cap space to sign him outright as a free agent.

You keep hyping the Celtics but are failing to acknowledge that the Clippers have had better players with Blake and look how far they've gone. They are certainly not getting out of the East against LeBron when teams like a dysfunctional Rockets team would oust them.

Thing is Boston will give Clevland all they have right now as is.... the idea to pass Blake to Boston for that #1 is a fantastic idea. Boston can't expect to compete for a championship with the current group by chipping away with an over achieving bunch. Griffin solidifies their club.... drafting Fultz or any of the small fwds doesn't help them. Thet have guards and forwards already. They need stud Power fwd. I disagree about Griffin being only effective cuz of his athleticism. This guy is a great passer from his position sand shoots the ball very well. He's a missing puzzle piece for them.

The Clippers need to reload around CP3. Cp3 wants guys to shoot the passes he gives them. Too often Griffin is passing the ball back. Melo is not passing up tough shots. You find a power fwd that can compete on the boards and shoot and you go to war. There are options there for them.

THE Knicks need that #1 pick...if thet are trading Melo and getting back trash, they need that pick. Fultz would be perfect at lead guard for us. You add that to the probable #7 pick and the Knicks have something special Brewing. Just imagine a core of KP, Willy, Fultz... maybe give Lauri a shot. Roll with Baker and Randle. Put out Lauri, Kuz, KP, Baker, Fultz... Willy, Randle...add the second round pick. Throw the vets in the mix... I mean the world is your oyster.

Speak it into existence

Exactly all the teams get what they need, and even Phil would look like a genius if he pulled that off and that's way less than Pacers and Bulls were asking Boston for PG and Butler who for comparable players (PG leg snapped a few years back) wanted multiple picks and players. Even if the Celtics do the deal they would have assets to round out the roster.

I could see the Knicks getting this years Nyets and maybe even still coming away with that 2021 pick or the 2019 Grizzlies picks and the majority of the fan base would be calling Phil the smartest GM in NY in decades (myself included).

Even ESPN might be forced to give Phil credit for a good deal.

Well yeah, because we'd be making out like bandits in the deal. Why would either of those teams surrender that much for a player whose NTC automatically deflates the market. If not for the Clippers, Cavs and possibly the Celtics, what is Melo's market?