What exaclty is your IDEA of a Rebuild
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GustavBahler
Posts: 31128
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Joined: 7/12/2010
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4/20/2017  4:11 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Have pointed this out a few times... Phil could not do a true "strip it down" rebuild because of what past folks in his position had left him.

You can go back on your own to look at the 2014 and 2016 drafts to see what we might have ended with if Phil had all of our picks we've given away over the years... 1st and 2nd rounds.

I'm not sure he would have signed Melo if he had a full complement of picks.

Phil misused Chandler as a trade asset- maybe we could have traded him to the Cavs for the 2 #1s they gave Denver for Mosgov.

If he really didn't want JR, he should have traded him immediately- his contract had only a year left and it was only about $5M. It might have helped Hardaway, who could have emerged as more of a leader without Melo and Smith around. Maybe Shumpert even fits in a little better.

Water under the bridge, obviously, but for me the biggest issues for Phil was that he wanted the game played a certain way, was saddled with a star he probably didn't want, and was missing the draft picks which he would have benefited from if he had jettisoned Melo, Smith, and Chandler.

Disagree that JR could have been easily moved without Shumpert. He was the most toxic player in the league at the time, look back at the timeline of his antics (to put it nicely) that led up to his being traded. No one wanted anything to do with him. The only team willing to take him on was one with a player in the conversation for GOAT. Even then it took a while for JR to stay out of trouble long enough to help them win a ring. Remember that Chuck Norris like spinning backfist punch his first playoff series with the Cavs? No one wanted any of that.

Dont blame Phil for trading Hardaway either as he looked much the same as he did in NY, his first season in Atlanta. If THJ had stayed in NY another season, and played as poorly, I doubt many here would have shed a tear if he had left.

When Chandler was traded he was flu Tyson. He was throwing teammates under the bus, and leaving himself blameless. All sorts of injuries, his value was rock bottom at the time. Dont believe it was realistic to expect Phil to get DPOY prices for a player whose value was shot at the time.

Unless Dolan mandated that Phil bring Melo back for the max (with an NTC) it is 100 percent on him. No exec in the league would get a pass for making a deal like this, and neither should he. Thought it was a bad idea then.

You're right Phil couldn't do an old school, ground up, rebuild with draft picks. But he could have done a partial rebuild with cap space if Melo had walked. Doing a sign and trade, or just letting Melo, go would have given the Knicks the cap room to start a rebuild with better, younger players, while we waited to get our picks again.

We still did do a strip down rebuild every season in the sense that any player who wasn't deemed to be a "Triangle Player" was jettisoned, and that meant almost everyone. This meant looking for a very particular type of player. Harder to find as it takes several seasons to really play this system well with any consistency. This meant going through many players to find a very particular player with the right skill set.

You take away the Triangle, and its very specific demands, and you wind up with more players available, good players, who can help the team. If Jeff was allowed to run the system he wants, I doubt that players who fit would be this hard to find.


He could have simply waived JR and simply ate the $$- 1 yr at around $5M...not so bad. I won't condone Phil's obsession with the Triangle above all things, but JR was not only unwilling and unable to play in the system, he was also a negative influence on Hardaway and Shumpert...no? And in the background we had a player like Melo who was not willing to control Smith.

Can't remember how Fisher got along with him, but you figure that he did not appreciate him too much.

One thing about that 52 win team...we had guys who could put JR in his place and bring the best out of him. When the greybeards left JR had nobody to control him.

If Anthony was gone, maybe Chandler gives you some better play...who knows. His value was down when we traded him...why not build him up before trading him.

If you don't sign Anthony, guys like Shump and Hardaway might emerge, who knows, and maybe Hardaway takes to the Triangle without distractions like Smith around.

Big move, or non-move, though...Signing Melo to that contract...almost all moves were tied to making the Knicks a win now team, IMO.

Phil decided to do a tank early in the season. He got the best that he could. LeBron was the only person who was really able to get through to him. Woodson did at first, but by the time he left, he was phoning it in.

Dont believe it was another player though who caused THJ's game to suffer. It wasnt another player who got through to him, it was another coach. Someone who learned under Pops, who broke him down, and built him up again. Dont believe he would have turned things around here.

The rest you seem to suggest is all about Melo. The team's record without Melo in the lineup goes a long way in dispelling that notion. Players didnt suck at the time because of him. They sucked for a variety of reasons. Melo seems to be ascribed a power that seems to rival that of the gravitational force of planets.

Woodson started great when he talked about accountability (and enforced it) but that accountability gradually went out the window.
The coaches who followed were worse, caca.

That and the Quixotic search for Triangle players has more to do with why things haven't improved than Melo.

it didnt go out the window. The star didnt give max effort. Others follow and dont either. Woody can either light up Melo and lose Melo and the lockerroom, or he can light up the other guys and lose them and cause infighting (see Tyson's comments). The crew Woody had was not a max effort crew and any winning was not sustainable.... certainly not after the drop in talent from the Bargs trade among other factors.

So it had nothing to do with JR melting down in the playoffs? The drug suspension. Nothing to do with Woodson treating JR with kid gloves the next season. Nothing to do with mgmt signing his talentless brother to an NBA contract to make him happy? Woodson changed agents to make mgmt happy. He became a company man, just like Jeff is becoming. Melo was up for a new deal, and Woodson was more than happy to make every last second play "dump the ball to Melo." By the end of the season, Melo got tired of the lack of creativity. Melo isn't blameless, at the same time, I dont believe that this one player should take the rap for all the bad decisions this franchise has made since he got here.

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knicks1248
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4/20/2017  5:00 PM
I'm just so sick of blaming melo for everything wrong with this franchise,
ES
NYKBocker
Posts: 34923
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USA
4/20/2017  5:38 PM
knicks1248 wrote:I'm just so sick of blaming melo for everything wrong with this franchise,
Melo is the best player on the team. The team is not very good. He will get blamed for everything but if we win he will be revered forever. That is the nature of the beast.

I didn't like the Melo trade but I have changed my tune with him since his handling of KP. I really want him to succeed here but I think Phil is making it difficult for this to happen.

WaltLongmire
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4/20/2017  5:49 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Have pointed this out a few times... Phil could not do a true "strip it down" rebuild because of what past folks in his position had left him.

You can go back on your own to look at the 2014 and 2016 drafts to see what we might have ended with if Phil had all of our picks we've given away over the years... 1st and 2nd rounds.

I'm not sure he would have signed Melo if he had a full complement of picks.

Phil misused Chandler as a trade asset- maybe we could have traded him to the Cavs for the 2 #1s they gave Denver for Mosgov.

If he really didn't want JR, he should have traded him immediately- his contract had only a year left and it was only about $5M. It might have helped Hardaway, who could have emerged as more of a leader without Melo and Smith around. Maybe Shumpert even fits in a little better.

Water under the bridge, obviously, but for me the biggest issues for Phil was that he wanted the game played a certain way, was saddled with a star he probably didn't want, and was missing the draft picks which he would have benefited from if he had jettisoned Melo, Smith, and Chandler.

Disagree that JR could have been easily moved without Shumpert. He was the most toxic player in the league at the time, look back at the timeline of his antics (to put it nicely) that led up to his being traded. No one wanted anything to do with him. The only team willing to take him on was one with a player in the conversation for GOAT. Even then it took a while for JR to stay out of trouble long enough to help them win a ring. Remember that Chuck Norris like spinning backfist punch his first playoff series with the Cavs? No one wanted any of that.

Dont blame Phil for trading Hardaway either as he looked much the same as he did in NY, his first season in Atlanta. If THJ had stayed in NY another season, and played as poorly, I doubt many here would have shed a tear if he had left.

When Chandler was traded he was flu Tyson. He was throwing teammates under the bus, and leaving himself blameless. All sorts of injuries, his value was rock bottom at the time. Dont believe it was realistic to expect Phil to get DPOY prices for a player whose value was shot at the time.

Unless Dolan mandated that Phil bring Melo back for the max (with an NTC) it is 100 percent on him. No exec in the league would get a pass for making a deal like this, and neither should he. Thought it was a bad idea then.

You're right Phil couldn't do an old school, ground up, rebuild with draft picks. But he could have done a partial rebuild with cap space if Melo had walked. Doing a sign and trade, or just letting Melo, go would have given the Knicks the cap room to start a rebuild with better, younger players, while we waited to get our picks again.

We still did do a strip down rebuild every season in the sense that any player who wasn't deemed to be a "Triangle Player" was jettisoned, and that meant almost everyone. This meant looking for a very particular type of player. Harder to find as it takes several seasons to really play this system well with any consistency. This meant going through many players to find a very particular player with the right skill set.

You take away the Triangle, and its very specific demands, and you wind up with more players available, good players, who can help the team. If Jeff was allowed to run the system he wants, I doubt that players who fit would be this hard to find.


He could have simply waived JR and simply ate the $$- 1 yr at around $5M...not so bad. I won't condone Phil's obsession with the Triangle above all things, but JR was not only unwilling and unable to play in the system, he was also a negative influence on Hardaway and Shumpert...no? And in the background we had a player like Melo who was not willing to control Smith.

Can't remember how Fisher got along with him, but you figure that he did not appreciate him too much.

One thing about that 52 win team...we had guys who could put JR in his place and bring the best out of him. When the greybeards left JR had nobody to control him.

If Anthony was gone, maybe Chandler gives you some better play...who knows. His value was down when we traded him...why not build him up before trading him.

If you don't sign Anthony, guys like Shump and Hardaway might emerge, who knows, and maybe Hardaway takes to the Triangle without distractions like Smith around.

Big move, or non-move, though...Signing Melo to that contract...almost all moves were tied to making the Knicks a win now team, IMO.

Phil decided to do a tank early in the season. He got the best that he could. LeBron was the only person who was really able to get through to him. Woodson did at first, but by the time he left, he was phoning it in.

Dont believe it was another player though who caused THJ's game to suffer. It wasnt another player who got through to him, it was another coach. Someone who learned under Pops, who broke him down, and built him up again. Dont believe he would have turned things around here.

The rest you seem to suggest is all about Melo. The team's record without Melo in the lineup goes a long way in dispelling that notion. Players didnt suck at the time because of him. They sucked for a variety of reasons. Melo seems to be ascribed a power that seems to rival that of the gravitational force of planets.

Woodson started great when he talked about accountability (and enforced it) but that accountability gradually went out the window. The coaches who followed were worse, caca.

That and the Quixotic search for Triangle players has more to do with why things haven't improved than Melo.

Leaders emerge to fill a leadership void. Lance was somewhat of a leader after Anthony went down during Phil's
first year, but we really didn't have one, IMO.

Melo and Hardaway were close...you and I have no idea of what kind of influence or non-influence he had on him regarding the offense, and it was clear that Anthony was not the biggest fan of the Triangle. Who knows what kind of crap Fisher had to go through negotiating between his team and Phil...clearly not an easy thing to do.

Something many seem to forget...if you depend too much on a player, and everyone else stands around in deference to that player, you are hardly prepared to play on your own if that player is injured.

I've yelled about this for years...other players on the Knicks would defer to Melo...just as they would defer to any star. Look at the crap with George... Miles takes a good shot and George is not able to handle what happened in the interview...tells you a lot about pecking order and how things work in the NBA.

This year we had two players- Rose and Melo, who are ball dominant. Is their any wonder that the offense moved better and more shots were taken by a diverse group of players when Rose and Anthony were out.

KP talked about this when we were 14-10...he knew we were not playing as a team even though we were winning. Look at the moves he worked on in the offseason, by the way...facing the basket SG/SF moves- he was also going 1/1 too often, IMO, and not getting good shots within the flow of the offense.

Teams have to grow and evolve...I'm not sure that the Knicks did that this year with Rose AND Melo together, given their respective styles of play.

“I can give you an argument, but I cannot give you an understanding.” – Samuel Johnson
GustavBahler
Posts: 31128
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

4/20/2017  7:47 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Have pointed this out a few times... Phil could not do a true "strip it down" rebuild because of what past folks in his position had left him.

You can go back on your own to look at the 2014 and 2016 drafts to see what we might have ended with if Phil had all of our picks we've given away over the years... 1st and 2nd rounds.

I'm not sure he would have signed Melo if he had a full complement of picks.

Phil misused Chandler as a trade asset- maybe we could have traded him to the Cavs for the 2 #1s they gave Denver for Mosgov.

If he really didn't want JR, he should have traded him immediately- his contract had only a year left and it was only about $5M. It might have helped Hardaway, who could have emerged as more of a leader without Melo and Smith around. Maybe Shumpert even fits in a little better.

Water under the bridge, obviously, but for me the biggest issues for Phil was that he wanted the game played a certain way, was saddled with a star he probably didn't want, and was missing the draft picks which he would have benefited from if he had jettisoned Melo, Smith, and Chandler.

Disagree that JR could have been easily moved without Shumpert. He was the most toxic player in the league at the time, look back at the timeline of his antics (to put it nicely) that led up to his being traded. No one wanted anything to do with him. The only team willing to take him on was one with a player in the conversation for GOAT. Even then it took a while for JR to stay out of trouble long enough to help them win a ring. Remember that Chuck Norris like spinning backfist punch his first playoff series with the Cavs? No one wanted any of that.

Dont blame Phil for trading Hardaway either as he looked much the same as he did in NY, his first season in Atlanta. If THJ had stayed in NY another season, and played as poorly, I doubt many here would have shed a tear if he had left.

When Chandler was traded he was flu Tyson. He was throwing teammates under the bus, and leaving himself blameless. All sorts of injuries, his value was rock bottom at the time. Dont believe it was realistic to expect Phil to get DPOY prices for a player whose value was shot at the time.

Unless Dolan mandated that Phil bring Melo back for the max (with an NTC) it is 100 percent on him. No exec in the league would get a pass for making a deal like this, and neither should he. Thought it was a bad idea then.

You're right Phil couldn't do an old school, ground up, rebuild with draft picks. But he could have done a partial rebuild with cap space if Melo had walked. Doing a sign and trade, or just letting Melo, go would have given the Knicks the cap room to start a rebuild with better, younger players, while we waited to get our picks again.

We still did do a strip down rebuild every season in the sense that any player who wasn't deemed to be a "Triangle Player" was jettisoned, and that meant almost everyone. This meant looking for a very particular type of player. Harder to find as it takes several seasons to really play this system well with any consistency. This meant going through many players to find a very particular player with the right skill set.

You take away the Triangle, and its very specific demands, and you wind up with more players available, good players, who can help the team. If Jeff was allowed to run the system he wants, I doubt that players who fit would be this hard to find.


He could have simply waived JR and simply ate the $$- 1 yr at around $5M...not so bad. I won't condone Phil's obsession with the Triangle above all things, but JR was not only unwilling and unable to play in the system, he was also a negative influence on Hardaway and Shumpert...no? And in the background we had a player like Melo who was not willing to control Smith.

Can't remember how Fisher got along with him, but you figure that he did not appreciate him too much.

One thing about that 52 win team...we had guys who could put JR in his place and bring the best out of him. When the greybeards left JR had nobody to control him.

If Anthony was gone, maybe Chandler gives you some better play...who knows. His value was down when we traded him...why not build him up before trading him.

If you don't sign Anthony, guys like Shump and Hardaway might emerge, who knows, and maybe Hardaway takes to the Triangle without distractions like Smith around.

Big move, or non-move, though...Signing Melo to that contract...almost all moves were tied to making the Knicks a win now team, IMO.

Phil decided to do a tank early in the season. He got the best that he could. LeBron was the only person who was really able to get through to him. Woodson did at first, but by the time he left, he was phoning it in.

Dont believe it was another player though who caused THJ's game to suffer. It wasnt another player who got through to him, it was another coach. Someone who learned under Pops, who broke him down, and built him up again. Dont believe he would have turned things around here.

The rest you seem to suggest is all about Melo. The team's record without Melo in the lineup goes a long way in dispelling that notion. Players didnt suck at the time because of him. They sucked for a variety of reasons. Melo seems to be ascribed a power that seems to rival that of the gravitational force of planets.

Woodson started great when he talked about accountability (and enforced it) but that accountability gradually went out the window. The coaches who followed were worse, caca.

That and the Quixotic search for Triangle players has more to do with why things haven't improved than Melo.

Leaders emerge to fill a leadership void. Lance was somewhat of a leader after Anthony went down during Phil's
first year, but we really didn't have one, IMO.

Melo and Hardaway were close...you and I have no idea of what kind of influence or non-influence he had on him regarding the offense, and it was clear that Anthony was not the biggest fan of the Triangle. Who knows what kind of crap Fisher had to go through negotiating between his team and Phil...clearly not an easy thing to do.

Something many seem to forget...if you depend too much on a player, and everyone else stands around in deference to that player, you are hardly prepared to play on your own if that player is injured.

I've yelled about this for years...other players on the Knicks would defer to Melo...just as they would defer to any star. Look at the crap with George... Miles takes a good shot and George is not able to handle what happened in the interview...tells you a lot about pecking order and how things work in the NBA.

This year we had two players- Rose and Melo, who are ball dominant. Is their any wonder that the offense moved better and more shots were taken by a diverse group of players when Rose and Anthony were out.

KP talked about this when we were 14-10...he knew we were not playing as a team even though we were winning. Look at the moves he worked on in the offseason, by the way...facing the basket SG/SF moves- he was also going 1/1 too often, IMO, and not getting good shots within the flow of the offense.

Teams have to grow and evolve...I'm not sure that the Knicks did that this year with Rose AND Melo together, given their respective styles of play.


I do know that THJ wasn't driving to the rim, or playing D because of Melo. I agree about Melo and Rose being ball dominant players, to a fault at times. Pointed it out from the first preseason game.

Melo was part of the problem at times but not the problem. The only thing standing in the way of success. Rose was more ball dominant than Melo anyway.

I dont have a problem including Melo on a list of players who in some way could make winning more difficult at times. Was saying that Melo played too much "hero ball" not long after he got here. My problem with all the Melo criticism is that too often its used as a convenient excuse to divert attention away from mgmt, the people who built and run the team. There is a lot more to this team's lack of success than the flaws in Melo's game, a lot more.

What exaclty is your IDEA of a Rebuild

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