knicks1248 wrote:stupid contradicting statements like "MELO PLAYED GREAT IN HIS ROLE FOR US HE PRETTY MUCH CARRIED THE LOAD, BUT WE CAN'T WIN WITH HIM. that should have been followed up with , "And we have zero shot without him"

Why?

WaltLongmire wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:He said he thought the players at the end of the year was successful...They played hard defense...He gets sucked in by Admunson, Galloway, Baker, Plumlee and N'Dour trying to stick in the NDA..These guy can't win games...

So I don't get a comment like this. Phil was obviously talking about playing team ball and what that takes. Max effort and moving and passing and defense. And in those terms he found it better.

Winning/not winning, that may be a product of all of those things plus talent.

But he has to recognize who these guys are and why they are playing that way...They are trying to stick...Vets manage their time and minutes of the year..I think KP perfectly illustrates this...last year KP went all out and was flying all over the place..I thought this year, after playing a full season, he tried to manage his time and effort to be fresh over the course of a year..He go injured and didn't work out but vets won't do that game in and game out...Ball movement I get but the defense like that is taxing...

WTF is that mean? The defense like that is taxing?

Max effort and team ball. You don't guy into that, get off the team. I understand playing smartly so as to not get injured but that's not really the point. The point is not taking plays off on one side of the court.

But he has to recognize who these guys are and why they are playing that way...They are trying to stick...Vets manage their time and minutes of the year

I don't get this either? You don't think Phil understand or recognize who these guys are? That they are fighting for jobs? Of course man. They are also playing the right way. Max effort and team ball. Get with the program or get out.

I actually understand what holfresh is trying to get at...just a matter of pacing yourself. There is a tradeoff on the offensive end when you're defending every play like it is the last play of the finals.

Usual time to take a "rest" is on the offensive end, but here is where the Triangle becomes an issue for certain players because you always have to be on the move. Think about how some players stand around on offense waiting for the ball to be kicked out to them for a 3. Not much energy expended.

Then you look at Baker or Sasha and how they are moving on the court. Have to be an elite athlete to play truly tough D and also move around on offense like the Triangle calls for you to do, OR you have to be a 20MPG guy who can go hard because he knows he won't be on the court for 35 minutes each night.

Rose was clearly more concerned with saving his energy for the offensive end...and it showed when he was on D, and this is the reason why Phil will not resign him. Rose is not going to change his game at this point, and Phil must know this.

teams that are in deep playoff hunt.... do you they take plays off? Is Pop OK with this? GS teams? Do they have players that take plays off?

I don't think so.

Was the gist of what Phil was getting at really about maxing effort/team ball throughout or nuancing how to pace yourself throughout the whole season?

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/852956631373565953

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing back Rose.

I don't know if we can get a guy like Jrue Holiday, Teague, or George Hill in FA though.

Don't think Phil wants him back...no way.

He is not even a player that moves well without the ball, so if he is an off guard he will still have to do his normal thing.

If Rose had great court vision I'd put up with his defensive deficiencies, but perimeter D is essential.

He said Rose plays well with Noah...I think he brings Rose back so Noah doesn't die on the vine..

I'll go gentleman's bet with you on that.

Think about the contract Rose would want at this point...and after all is said and done he ended the season yet with another leg injury.

Not going to lie...it is amazing how he can take it to the basket at will, and I don't care that he can't shoot well from 3 because his midrange Js are so efficient.

BUT his D is lame- he shows no scrappiness on that end, and you see him missing open looks all the time.

I'll be stunned if Phil offers him the 4y/$100M type contract he will be looking for.

Yeah no one is saying that though. No one will give Rose that money, particularly after his most recent injury. I think it is very fair to say Phil specifically left the door open for a Rose return. I think the circumstances would have to be - the Knicks strike out in FA and Rose doesn't get a good offer from anywhere else, the Knicks may make him a modest offer. I don't know if it's likely. But I could certainly see it happening. Phil definitely left the door open if you watch him talking about Rose.

I think Phil was being diplomatic about bringing Rose back, and we know Rose is signing for less than near max...just ain't happening on his last significant contract negotiation.

Agreed and here is where he doesn't get the credit he deserves in respecting players. He knows Rose is injured, looking for a contract and needs as much support as he can offer.

holfresh wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/MrBruCru21/status/852988946757898240

This from Melo who cried to the media yesterday about how he thinks you should air beef face to face. His sole interest is winning the pissing contest with phil- doesn't give a **** about undermining the team in the process. Hope he ****s off soon.

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/852956631373565953

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing back Rose.

I don't know if we can get a guy like Jrue Holiday, Teague, or George Hill in FA though.

Don't think Phil wants him back...no way.

He is not even a player that moves well without the ball, so if he is an off guard he will still have to do his normal thing.

If Rose had great court vision I'd put up with his defensive deficiencies, but perimeter D is essential.

He said Rose plays well with Noah...I think he brings Rose back so Noah doesn't die on the vine..

Man you take everything out of context or are not really paying attention. I think the statement was about previous to this year. That those guys had played together and maybe that would help the team and both of them out. It was quite clear to me that Rose is going to be an afterthought going forward.

You know what..I don't have the energy at the moment...We can pick this up later...The Organization is lost with Phil is what I took from that press conference..He has no plan...

Your comments are an anti-Phil monologue that has no plan to end. People like you who twist every word are the reason no one wants to talk to the press anymore. Putting an Orwellian spin on the presser is not even something you're good at. Go get your rest.

There was no Orwell. It was a fake apology. "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..."

Before going into blaming Melo's resistance to the Triangle for the losing season.

A question I would've asked Phil - Where was Melo's resistance to the Triangle under Fisher last year?

Was Frank Isola writing hit pieces when the team looked like it had a direction and some promise? That looks pretty positive to me. I wonder why Melo moved the ball more last season and magically stopped this season? Could it have been roster makeup? Could it have been the coach? Who was in charge of those things?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/knicks-potential-game-winner-fall-short-spurs-article-1.2490721

Melo was worse this year because he's aging. And because the roster makeup sucked and the coach was a step back from Fisher on the floor at least. And as Phil said when he was writing as "Charlie Rosen", KP wasn't the same after his Christmas achilles injury. Noah was a net negative waste. Rose was non-existent on D and then even more non-existent when he went AWOL.

And guess what - When Melo bought into the Triangle last year? The team still sucked. 32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't. Maaaaaaybe Phil is focusing on the wrong narrative.

Obviously it is time to move on from Melo. But Phil's continued obsession of guys who buy into the Triangle, and his continual poo-poo-ing of the three point shot, and his continual lack of focus on the defensive side of the ball in roster construction will have a lot more to do with shaping this team than trading Melo for Austin Rivers.

In the end we didn't win with Melo and now the roster is on the precipice of adding even more young talent. Melo simply doesn't fit with what Phil and the coaches want to do.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/852956631373565953

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing back Rose.

I don't know if we can get a guy like Jrue Holiday, Teague, or George Hill in FA though.

Don't think Phil wants him back...no way.

He is not even a player that moves well without the ball, so if he is an off guard he will still have to do his normal thing.

If Rose had great court vision I'd put up with his defensive deficiencies, but perimeter D is essential.

He said Rose plays well with Noah...I think he brings Rose back so Noah doesn't die on the vine..

Man you take everything out of context or are not really paying attention. I think the statement was about previous to this year. That those guys had played together and maybe that would help the team and both of them out. It was quite clear to me that Rose is going to be an afterthought going forward.

You know what..I don't have the energy at the moment...We can pick this up later...The Organization is lost with Phil is what I took from that press conference..He has no plan...

Your comments are an anti-Phil monologue that has no plan to end. People like you who twist every word are the reason no one wants to talk to the press anymore. Putting an Orwellian spin on the presser is not even something you're good at. Go get your rest.

There was no Orwell. It was a fake apology. "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..."

Before going into blaming Melo's resistance to the Triangle for the losing season.

A question I would've asked Phil - Where was Melo's resistance to the Triangle under Fisher last year?

Was Frank Isola writing hit pieces when the team looked like it had a direction and some promise? That looks pretty positive to me. I wonder why Melo moved the ball more last season and magically stopped this season? Could it have been roster makeup? Could it have been the coach? Who was in charge of those things?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/knicks-potential-game-winner-fall-short-spurs-article-1.2490721

Melo was worse this year because he's aging. And because the roster makeup sucked and the coach was a step back from Fisher on the floor at least. And as Phil said when he was writing as "Charlie Rosen", KP wasn't the same after his Christmas achilles injury. Noah was a net negative waste. Rose was non-existent on D and then even more non-existent when he went AWOL.

And guess what - When Melo bought into the Triangle last year? The team still sucked. 32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't. Maaaaaaybe Phil is focusing on the wrong narrative.

Obviously it is time to move on from Melo. But Phil's continued obsession of guys who buy into the Triangle, and his continual poo-poo-ing of the three point shot, and his continual lack of focus on the defensive side of the ball in roster construction will have a lot more to do with shaping this team than trading Melo for Austin Rivers.

This team would NOT have lost so many games if Melo had fully bought in like he did last year and Rose as well. The RESISTANCE is a huge part of the problem. You can't have your team's top players not fully buying in. It just doesn't work. Now there were some other health issues like LT and KP but that isn't enough of a reason to lose so many close games. At one point the Knicks had lost 16 games by 5 or fewer points. We all saw how many last second losses there were.

In the end we didn't win with Melo and now the roster is on the precipice of adding even more young talent. Melo simply doesn't fit with what Phil and the coaches want to do.

Ive said many times - I really can't wait to see what Phil does with Melo gone. Let's see if he can trade Melo first. It'll be hilarious if he can't. I know the Garden loves a good press conference, but the job isn't done yet.

I personally believe that a deal will be made. It's much easier after the playoffs and there will be many teams that fail to make the finals that could view Melo as a great piece to add to their roster for next season's playoff run. There's always a little bit of desperation every summer.

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/852956631373565953

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing back Rose.

I don't know if we can get a guy like Jrue Holiday, Teague, or George Hill in FA though.

Don't think Phil wants him back...no way.

He is not even a player that moves well without the ball, so if he is an off guard he will still have to do his normal thing.

If Rose had great court vision I'd put up with his defensive deficiencies, but perimeter D is essential.

He said Rose plays well with Noah...I think he brings Rose back so Noah doesn't die on the vine..

Man you take everything out of context or are not really paying attention. I think the statement was about previous to this year. That those guys had played together and maybe that would help the team and both of them out. It was quite clear to me that Rose is going to be an afterthought going forward.

You know what..I don't have the energy at the moment...We can pick this up later...The Organization is lost with Phil is what I took from that press conference..He has no plan...

Your comments are an anti-Phil monologue that has no plan to end. People like you who twist every word are the reason no one wants to talk to the press anymore. Putting an Orwellian spin on the presser is not even something you're good at. Go get your rest.

There was no Orwell. It was a fake apology. "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..."

Before going into blaming Melo's resistance to the Triangle for the losing season.

A question I would've asked Phil - Where was Melo's resistance to the Triangle under Fisher last year?

Was Frank Isola writing hit pieces when the team looked like it had a direction and some promise? That looks pretty positive to me. I wonder why Melo moved the ball more last season and magically stopped this season? Could it have been roster makeup? Could it have been the coach? Who was in charge of those things?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/knicks-potential-game-winner-fall-short-spurs-article-1.2490721

Melo was worse this year because he's aging. And because the roster makeup sucked and the coach was a step back from Fisher on the floor at least. And as Phil said when he was writing as "Charlie Rosen", KP wasn't the same after his Christmas achilles injury. Noah was a net negative waste. Rose was non-existent on D and then even more non-existent when he went AWOL.

And guess what - When Melo bought into the Triangle last year? The team still sucked. 32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't. Maaaaaaybe Phil is focusing on the wrong narrative.

Obviously it is time to move on from Melo. But Phil's continued obsession of guys who buy into the Triangle, and his continual poo-poo-ing of the three point shot, and his continual lack of focus on the defensive side of the ball in roster construction will have a lot more to do with shaping this team than trading Melo for Austin Rivers.

I'm sorry. Did Phil give a second press conference because he did not say what you claim he said in the one I watched.

THIS, "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..." is bullsh@t.

What Phil ended the sentence was "the buck stops here". That wasn't a fake apology or an apology at all. That was an executive saying, "I can't lace them up but I'm going to fix it". And by fixing it he means Melo is gone as any kind of centerpiece for this team. And Phil's advice that melo doesn't want to go out this way was not only good advice but a reality check. "You [Melo] stay and you'll ride the bench."

Is your claim that melo didn't resist? That he played both ends of the court and held everyone else to account when they weren't playing the right way? That's not what I saw. What becomes more obvious is a player willing to throw games to get his way. Not cool on a whole lot of levels.

and when you say, "32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't" you are making the point that he brings nothing to the team. Nothing.

fwk00 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/852956631373565953

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing back Rose.

I don't know if we can get a guy like Jrue Holiday, Teague, or George Hill in FA though.

Don't think Phil wants him back...no way.

He is not even a player that moves well without the ball, so if he is an off guard he will still have to do his normal thing.

If Rose had great court vision I'd put up with his defensive deficiencies, but perimeter D is essential.

He said Rose plays well with Noah...I think he brings Rose back so Noah doesn't die on the vine..

Man you take everything out of context or are not really paying attention. I think the statement was about previous to this year. That those guys had played together and maybe that would help the team and both of them out. It was quite clear to me that Rose is going to be an afterthought going forward.

You know what..I don't have the energy at the moment...We can pick this up later...The Organization is lost with Phil is what I took from that press conference..He has no plan...

Your comments are an anti-Phil monologue that has no plan to end. People like you who twist every word are the reason no one wants to talk to the press anymore. Putting an Orwellian spin on the presser is not even something you're good at. Go get your rest.

There was no Orwell. It was a fake apology. "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..."

Before going into blaming Melo's resistance to the Triangle for the losing season.

A question I would've asked Phil - Where was Melo's resistance to the Triangle under Fisher last year?

Was Frank Isola writing hit pieces when the team looked like it had a direction and some promise? That looks pretty positive to me. I wonder why Melo moved the ball more last season and magically stopped this season? Could it have been roster makeup? Could it have been the coach? Who was in charge of those things?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/knicks-potential-game-winner-fall-short-spurs-article-1.2490721

Melo was worse this year because he's aging. And because the roster makeup sucked and the coach was a step back from Fisher on the floor at least. And as Phil said when he was writing as "Charlie Rosen", KP wasn't the same after his Christmas achilles injury. Noah was a net negative waste. Rose was non-existent on D and then even more non-existent when he went AWOL.

And guess what - When Melo bought into the Triangle last year? The team still sucked. 32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't. Maaaaaaybe Phil is focusing on the wrong narrative.

Obviously it is time to move on from Melo. But Phil's continued obsession of guys who buy into the Triangle, and his continual poo-poo-ing of the three point shot, and his continual lack of focus on the defensive side of the ball in roster construction will have a lot more to do with shaping this team than trading Melo for Austin Rivers.

I'm sorry. Did Phil give a second press conference because he did not say what you claim he said in the one I watched.

THIS, "I didn't take any jump shots, I didn't make any substitutions, but sure yeah it's my fault I guess..." is bullsh@t.

What Phil ended the sentence was "the buck stops here". That wasn't a fake apology or an apology at all. That was an executive saying, "I can't lace them up but I'm going to fix it". And by fixing it he means Melo is gone as any kind of centerpiece for this team. And Phil's advice that melo doesn't want to go out this way was not only good advice but a reality check. "You [Melo] stay and you'll ride the bench."

Is your claim that melo didn't resist? That he played both ends of the court and held everyone else to account when they weren't playing the right way? That's not what I saw. What becomes more obvious is a player willing to throw games to get his way. Not cool on a whole lot of levels.

and when you say, "32 wins when Melo buys in and 31 wins when he doesn't" you are making the point that he brings nothing to the team. Nothing.

Yes, I'm also making the point that Melo is not the main issue.

My point was Melo bought in under Fisher and took an inferior roster to 22-22 before the injuries started. He didn't buy in under Hornacek. I'm not convinced it's Melo's fault. Did Rose go AWOL because of Melo? Did Noah take supplements because of Melo? Did KP strain his Achilles because of Melo? Did Melo tell Hornacek in their very first pre-season game to not even mention defense once?

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:He said he thought the players at the end of the year was successful...They played hard defense...He gets sucked in by Admunson, Galloway, Baker, Plumlee and N'Dour trying to stick in the NDA..These guy can't win games...

So I don't get a comment like this. Phil was obviously talking about playing team ball and what that takes. Max effort and moving and passing and defense. And in those terms he found it better.

Winning/not winning, that may be a product of all of those things plus talent.

But he has to recognize who these guys are and why they are playing that way...They are trying to stick...Vets manage their time and minutes of the year..I think KP perfectly illustrates this...last year KP went all out and was flying all over the place..I thought this year, after playing a full season, he tried to manage his time and effort to be fresh over the course of a year..He go injured and didn't work out but vets won't do that game in and game out...Ball movement I get but the defense like that is taxing...

WTF is that mean? The defense like that is taxing?

Max effort and team ball. You don't guy into that, get off the team. I understand playing smartly so as to not get injured but that's not really the point. The point is not taking plays off on one side of the court.

But he has to recognize who these guys are and why they are playing that way...They are trying to stick...Vets manage their time and minutes of the year

I don't get this either? You don't think Phil understand or recognize who these guys are? That they are fighting for jobs? Of course man. They are also playing the right way. Max effort and team ball. Get with the program or get out.

I actually understand what holfresh is trying to get at...just a matter of pacing yourself. There is a tradeoff on the offensive end when you're defending every play like it is the last play of the finals.

Usual time to take a "rest" is on the offensive end, but here is where the Triangle becomes an issue for certain players because you always have to be on the move. Think about how some players stand around on offense waiting for the ball to be kicked out to them for a 3. Not much energy expended.

Then you look at Baker or Sasha and how they are moving on the court. Have to be an elite athlete to play truly tough D and also move around on offense like the Triangle calls for you to do, OR you have to be a 20MPG guy who can go hard because he knows he won't be on the court for 35 minutes each night.

Rose was clearly more concerned with saving his energy for the offensive end...and it showed when he was on D, and this is the reason why Phil will not resign him. Rose is not going to change his game at this point, and Phil must know this.

teams that are in deep playoff hunt.... do you they take plays off? Is Pop OK with this? GS teams? Do they have players that take plays off?

I don't think so.

Was the gist of what Phil was getting at really about maxing effort/team ball throughout or nuancing how to pace yourself throughout the whole season?

Yes, they do they just have way better offensive players. Klay, dray, steph, Aldridge, parker, Gasol, Harden, Lebron, Kyrie, Love, Griffin, and etc all take plays off. However, NY does not have any player good enough offensively to take plays off.

holfresh wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/MikeAScotto/status/853005181809811456

It's really amazing how some people here don't get that Phil and Dolan are straight up reviled around the league.

BRIGGS wrote:I didnt hear much or anything about 3 point shooting. I think one of those two 2nd rounders needs to be dedicated to a 3 point shooter.

He did at one point poo-poo the three point shot.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/Herring_NBA/status/852967421577134080