nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Phil mentioned Jamie and Steve as the guys running the executive portion of the franchise while he increases his mentoring. Jamie has worked for the Knicks since Isiah came. Mills was an Isiah guy.

Right. That I heard. And we have fwerks00 telling us Phil won't get in the way of the coaching staff anymore...

At least he said he'll stop tweeting.

If anything the way the younger players ended the season actually executing the plan Jeff, Phil and Rambis came together on should be encouraging to everyone. They're going to be able to work together going forward MINUS the resistant BS.

The kids will do better without the negative influences and it can be about BASKETBALL.

Did you miss the part where KP blew off his exit interview? Your idea of a harmonious young team is complete fantasy.

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

s3231 wrote:The biggest mistake Phil has made here was trying to appease Melo this season by getting him veteran help to win immediately. All of the bad moves we've made came through this (e.g. Signing Noah to 4 years, using Lopez asset on Rose, etc.).

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

I somewhat agree. ...but that doesn't mean it wasn't Phil's decision to trade for Rose and sign Noah. He still made the decision.

Also, I would argue his failure with both Fisher and Hornacek as coaches is his real biggest failure. He fired Fisher because Fisher wouldn't let Phil interupt his practices. He has undercut all authority Hornacek has because Hornacek does let him interupt practices. It's a mess and the single biggest problem on this team and it will be here whether Melo is a Knick or not.

crzymdups wrote:

s3231 wrote:The biggest mistake Phil has made here was trying to appease Melo this season by getting him veteran help to win immediately. All of the bad moves we've made came through this (e.g. Signing Noah to 4 years, using Lopez asset on Rose, etc.).

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

I somewhat agree. ...but that doesn't mean it wasn't Phil's decision to trade for Rose and sign Noah. He still made the decision.

Also, I would argue his failure with both Fisher and Hornacek as coaches is his real biggest failure. He fired Fisher because Fisher wouldn't let Phil interupt his practices. He has undercut all authority Hornacek has because Hornacek does let him interupt practices. It's a mess and the single biggest problem on this team and it will be here whether Melo is a Knick or not.

Agreed that Phil still made the calls on Noah and Rose. For that, he obviously needs to take responsibility and believe he has. My point is that those decisions were made under the lens of trying to give Melo support to win now.

Agree that he has made mistakes with coaches as well but I think his bigger mistake personally was the "win now mentality to appease Melo." I think we should have focused more on acquiring young studs and accumulating assets to build around Kristaps.

I wish we had explored trading Melo earlier and not waiting this long. In that sense, I wish Phil was more focused in past 2 seasons on how he wanted to build and executing that vision instead of trying to appease Melo.

Fortunately, the moves he made were pretty low risk (with exception of Noah) so we at least still have our picks.

yellowboy90 wrote:

s3231 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

s3231 wrote:The biggest mistake Phil has made here was trying to appease Melo this season by getting him veteran help to win immediately. All of the bad moves we've made came through this (e.g. Signing Noah to 4 years, using Lopez asset on Rose, etc.).

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

I somewhat agree. ...but that doesn't mean it wasn't Phil's decision to trade for Rose and sign Noah. He still made the decision.

Also, I would argue his failure with both Fisher and Hornacek as coaches is his real biggest failure. He fired Fisher because Fisher wouldn't let Phil interupt his practices. He has undercut all authority Hornacek has because Hornacek does let him interupt practices. It's a mess and the single biggest problem on this team and it will be here whether Melo is a Knick or not.

Agreed that Phil still made the calls on Noah and Rose. For that, he obviously needs to take responsibility and believe he has. My point is that those decisions were made under the lens of trying to give Melo support to win now.

Agree that he has made mistakes with coaches as well but I think his bigger mistake personally was the "win now mentality to appease Melo." I think we should have focused more on acquiring young studs and accumulating assets to build around Kristaps.

I wish we had explored trading Melo earlier and not waiting this long. In that sense, I wish Phil was more focused in past 2 seasons on how he wanted to build and executing that vision instead of trying to appease Melo.

Fortunately, the moves he made were pretty low risk (with exception of Noah) so we at least still have our picks.

So his idea of support is getting flawed unreliable non defensive players? That's awesome. What a visionary. I guess Melo should have thrown Phil under the bus to start the season and when did Phil take responsibility?

Noah and Lee both made careers based off their defense. KP provided strong rim protection his rookie year. While his judgement on Noah was waay off giving him the type of contract he gave. Noah, KP, Lee were def thought to bring defense. Holiday, Lance, KOQ are also defensive players first who were expected to round out the rotation with Jennings.

Melo, Rose, KP should have carried the team to the playoffs they had the talent amoungst them to do it. They and fans can blame this and that but its a players league and players make it happen. The *dysfunction* comes from them not getting it done and JH trying to figure out ways to get them to get it done. If they took over and won games imposing their will then that would have been what JH molded the team into. But they didnt. They played THEIR games in losing efforts.

newyorknewyork wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

s3231 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

s3231 wrote:The biggest mistake Phil has made here was trying to appease Melo this season by getting him veteran help to win immediately. All of the bad moves we've made came through this (e.g. Signing Noah to 4 years, using Lopez asset on Rose, etc.).

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

I somewhat agree. ...but that doesn't mean it wasn't Phil's decision to trade for Rose and sign Noah. He still made the decision.

Also, I would argue his failure with both Fisher and Hornacek as coaches is his real biggest failure. He fired Fisher because Fisher wouldn't let Phil interupt his practices. He has undercut all authority Hornacek has because Hornacek does let him interupt practices. It's a mess and the single biggest problem on this team and it will be here whether Melo is a Knick or not.

Agreed that Phil still made the calls on Noah and Rose. For that, he obviously needs to take responsibility and believe he has. My point is that those decisions were made under the lens of trying to give Melo support to win now.

Agree that he has made mistakes with coaches as well but I think his bigger mistake personally was the "win now mentality to appease Melo." I think we should have focused more on acquiring young studs and accumulating assets to build around Kristaps.

I wish we had explored trading Melo earlier and not waiting this long. In that sense, I wish Phil was more focused in past 2 seasons on how he wanted to build and executing that vision instead of trying to appease Melo.

Fortunately, the moves he made were pretty low risk (with exception of Noah) so we at least still have our picks.

So his idea of support is getting flawed unreliable non defensive players? That's awesome. What a visionary. I guess Melo should have thrown Phil under the bus to start the season and when did Phil take responsibility?

Noah and Lee both made careers based off their defense. KP provided strong rim protection his rookie year. While his judgement on Noah was waay off giving him the type of contract he gave. Noah, KP, Lee were def thought to bring defense. Holiday, Lance, KOQ are also defensive players first who were expected to round out the rotation with Jennings.

Melo, Rose, KP should have carried the team to the playoffs they had the talent amoungst them to do it. They and fans can blame this and that but its a players league and players make it happen. The *dysfunction* comes from them not getting it done and JH trying to figure out ways to get them to get it done. If they took over and won games imposing their will then that would have been what JH molded the team into. But they didnt. They played THEIR games in losing efforts.

So you are okay going on reputation instead of their recent performances? That is silly. There is a reason why the Bulls were willing to let go of their heart and soul because they knew he was breaking down. Also, there is a reason why Lee has never found a home and now you expect that same player who has never been consistent suddenly perform consistently as he gets older and older? To think Rose could help carry a team is lunacy at this stage of his career. It's also lunacy to think an aging Melo is capable of playing the 3 when before you got here he had his most success as a 4.

If you know you have a flawed player and you know he is best at a different position why surround him by other flawed players and play him at the wrong position. It's bad roster construction

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

s3231 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

s3231 wrote:The biggest mistake Phil has made here was trying to appease Melo this season by getting him veteran help to win immediately. All of the bad moves we've made came through this (e.g. Signing Noah to 4 years, using Lopez asset on Rose, etc.).

Funny how no one is bringing up that before the season, Melo came out and said "it's on us now, the front office did their job."

Well, the players certainly did NOT do their job this season. Phil has faults for sure and I certainly don't agree with everything he has done but for Melo to make it about the franchise not wanting to win is completely ridiculous.

Time to part ways and bring in talented 2-way players that play TEAM ball.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/18/carmelo-anthony-is-gushing-over-these-knicks-thank-you-phil/

I somewhat agree. ...but that doesn't mean it wasn't Phil's decision to trade for Rose and sign Noah. He still made the decision.

Also, I would argue his failure with both Fisher and Hornacek as coaches is his real biggest failure. He fired Fisher because Fisher wouldn't let Phil interupt his practices. He has undercut all authority Hornacek has because Hornacek does let him interupt practices. It's a mess and the single biggest problem on this team and it will be here whether Melo is a Knick or not.

Agreed that Phil still made the calls on Noah and Rose. For that, he obviously needs to take responsibility and believe he has. My point is that those decisions were made under the lens of trying to give Melo support to win now.

Agree that he has made mistakes with coaches as well but I think his bigger mistake personally was the "win now mentality to appease Melo." I think we should have focused more on acquiring young studs and accumulating assets to build around Kristaps.

I wish we had explored trading Melo earlier and not waiting this long. In that sense, I wish Phil was more focused in past 2 seasons on how he wanted to build and executing that vision instead of trying to appease Melo.

Fortunately, the moves he made were pretty low risk (with exception of Noah) so we at least still have our picks.

So his idea of support is getting flawed unreliable non defensive players? That's awesome. What a visionary. I guess Melo should have thrown Phil under the bus to start the season and when did Phil take responsibility?

Noah and Lee both made careers based off their defense. KP provided strong rim protection his rookie year. While his judgement on Noah was waay off giving him the type of contract he gave. Noah, KP, Lee were def thought to bring defense. Holiday, Lance, KOQ are also defensive players first who were expected to round out the rotation with Jennings.

Melo, Rose, KP should have carried the team to the playoffs they had the talent amoungst them to do it. They and fans can blame this and that but its a players league and players make it happen. The *dysfunction* comes from them not getting it done and JH trying to figure out ways to get them to get it done. If they took over and won games imposing their will then that would have been what JH molded the team into. But they didnt. They played THEIR games in losing efforts.

So you are okay going on reputation instead of their recent performances? That is silly. There is a reason why the Bulls were willing to let go of their heart and soul because they knew he was breaking down. Also, there is a reason why Lee has never found a home and now you expect that same player who has never been consistent suddenly perform consistently as he gets older and older? To think Rose could help carry a team is lunacy at this stage of his career. It's also lunacy to think an aging Melo is capable of playing the 3 when before you got here he had his most success as a 4.

If you know you have a flawed player and you know he is best at a different position why surround him by other flawed players and play him at the wrong position. It's bad roster construction

Health had more influence to y Bulls let him go over ability. A combination of Rose Melo KP should have carried the Knicks not just Rose. Rose has been one of the leagues best at driving to the hoop this season. Melo, KP, Lee are strong catch and shoot players who provide spacing that the Bulls didn't offer Rose with Gasol Noah Gibson. Lance was defensive 3/4 backup alternative. He has been banged up most of the year though. Lee is a low usage defensive 3-D guy as is Holiday who are compliments in theory to the high usage high volume Rose & Melo. Noah as a pnr or triangle playmaker made sense but Noah seems far removed from that player and,is washed up which is poor foresight by Phill.

If Rose, Melo, KP used their usage in order to create for each other and teammates. I can guarantee the defense would have been better. As it is proven, players play harder on D when they feel involved on offense. With Rose ability to drive and the spacing available for him. Penitration and kickouts and ball swinging should have been more prevailant. Melo would have brought his dad Melo game on top of that. We would be a playoff team with the same exact roster.

martin wrote:

PresIke wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:A very satisfying presser.

As many of us speculated, Phil is attempting what might most reasonably be called a "competitive rebuild". Competitive in the sense that he is actively building with youth (he mentioned our three draft picks) and competitive in signing and trading for talent (he mentioned that no one was untouchable).

As is often repeated, "The [this team] could lose as many games without [its star] as with him". I think Phil provided the best explanation of why Melo needs to move on and that is to avoid a legacy of perpetual failure that he will own if he stays. And Phil expects the same teams who would refuse moving a core player at mid-season to be more amenable to it after a playoff failure. And if the league stiffs the Knicks into keeping Melo, Phil gave fair warning that its no longer about Melo.

He also outlined the kind of players he wants to draft - not necessarily the high profile one or two dimensional players but two way, team players. It will be fun to see who the Knicks draft.

Why Isola plays Captain Obvious in his remark about Melo not being the only resistor is dumbfounding. Does he really believe Phil doesn't know that? Moronic tweet.

I get the impression that Phil does respect Rose. But I also think Rose has an uphill battle to get resigned here and that if he does, it will be on Phil's terms and not Rose's. Chances are that Rose coming off the bench as a two guard might be very effective assuming Rose recovers. OTOH, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yesterday I found Melo's claim that all he wanted was "to win" as bizarre. Why does he think the teammates he has don't want to win? Or the coaches? Or Phil? Or Dolan?
Melo seems to think he's the only one who wants to win and will hold his breath until the Knicks start winning. "I just want to win." No sh@t.

+1000

Really guys?

Even if you agree with this, which I have serious questions about, but throwing Melo under the bus like he did is poor management. As were his odd comments about the coaching situation, some other players and how this has now led to KP missing his exit interview, which I suspect would not have happened if Phil didn't say what he said in public about "resistance" etc.

Why is he trying to implement the triangle/a system that probably will be gone within a few seasons MAX after he leaves, and more likely as soon as he does? So, Dolan is only going to hire Presidents and coaches that follow Phil's system? Really? The entire NBA is about 3 point shooting now, and yes team ball is needed as well, but it's like he doesn't care about evidence that goes against his beliefs.

I didn't view Phil as throwing Melo under the bus. When asked a direct question on this, he answered. We all know this. Fans know this - they booed him repeatedly when he held ball. Writers know this, they write about it repeatedly. Scouts and players and coaches know this.

Also, it's my understanding that goal while moving towards championship is to also install a system that will last ala Pop/SA or BillB/Patriots. This speaks to me as lofty things to do for an organization, and one that should last multiple coaches/players (although ideally not a ton of them if the right pieces are initially put into place).

I don't understand this notion of system/triangle is automatically bad or not good for 3 point shooting. I've pointed this out before: San Antonio, via their system and under Pops direction, over the past 3 seasons, have taken LESS 3's over the course of 3 seasons. So, does Pop not believe in analytics? Does he believe there is more than 1 way to win? Does he not give a **** about what others are saying?

You don't think suggesting the entire season went badly because Melo was "resistant" and "it comes from the top" isn't throwing him under the bus? Phil could have said some of what he wanted without going there. It seemed like deflecting responsibility rather than taking it.

I love the idea of a long term system, but the two you refer to involve the same manager/prez. In soccer the team I follow, Manchester City, try to do this beyond managers, but they also have a "Director" who implements it. Phil would have to remain as the exec or find someone to replace him who will buy into this. Is it Rambis? That does not instill confidence.

As for 3's, his comments on KP not taking a 3 kind of reeks of this anti-3 point shooting mentality he seems so invested in proving is right. I'm not against being smart about 3 point shooting, but Phil seems to have some kind of chip on his shoulder about his way being proven right.

I have been a critic of Melo as well and hope that his departure is the cure as it seems Phil is intent on demonstrating to us, I just don't think the way he did it here was wise and has both attracted unnecessary attention, undermined the value of the player he wants to move, as a result has appeared to piss off the most popular player and future of the team in KP, amongst some other odd comments about coaching and basketball and angered a good portion of our fan base -- more disillusioned than ever -- even further.

PresIke wrote:You don't think suggesting the entire season went badly because Melo was "resistant" and "it comes from the top" isn't throwing him under the bus? Phil could have said some of what he wanted without going there. It seemed like deflecting responsibility rather than taking it.

Are you looking for sugar-coating from Phil or direct answers? First thing out of his mouth was that the buck stops with him. Myabe you were more interested in Phil just coming out to the podium and saying that everything was his fault and then nothing else? Cause that's where your words and questions are headed. What else is there?

When talking about moving the ball, moving players and holding the ball, that's usage. And the 3 biggest culprits of that were KP, Rose and Melo. And IMHO Rose and Melo are the defacto leaders of the team because of their stature as players, and Rose and Melo consumed too much oxygen in lieu of team ball. And yeah I do give KP a bit of a pass until about next year.

PresIke wrote:I love the idea of a long term system, but the two you refer to involve the same manager/prez. In soccer the team I follow, Manchester City, try to do this beyond managers, but they also have a "Director" who implements it. Phil would have to remain as the exec or find someone to replace him who will buy into this. Is it Rambis? That does not instill confidence.

As for 3's, his comments on KP not taking a 3 kind of reeks of this anti-3 point shooting mentality he seems so invested in proving is right. I'm not against being smart about 3 point shooting, but Phil seems to have some kind of chip on his shoulder about his way being proven right.

When Phil was winning championships, his teams shot the **** out of the 3pt line. Their % of shots from 3 were very high and that points directly to Phil understanding and using it to his advantage. Let us not forget Big Shot Bob. Kerr, Fisher. Yeah he made a dumbass tweet about GS couple of years ago, who cares. What else do you put forth that leads you to believe that Phil/system/Triangle does not like the 3pt shot? I just posted about Pop and San Antonino having diminishing 3point shots over the last 3 years. Do you care to remark on how you think Pop's system is ass backwards or is that just reserved for Phil and 1 Tweet and an out of context statement about KP (which was really about shot selection and probably not taking a bad 3pt shot and moving the ball for a better one)?

PresIke wrote:I have been a critic of Melo as well and hope that his departure is the cure as it seems Phil is intent on demonstrating to us, I just don't think the way he did it here was wise and has both attracted unnecessary attention, undermined the value of the player he wants to move, as a result has appeared to piss off the most popular player and future of the team in KP, amongst some other odd comments about coaching and basketball and angered a good portion of our fan base -- more disillusioned than ever -- even further.

Phil has catered to Melo. Gave him a near max extension WITH NTC. Gave him vets instead of rebuilding as he should have. Is it too much to ask that he plays D? Moves the ball ala DadMelo for more than half a season?