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The more I see Marbury
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islesfan
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8/16/2004  1:52 PM
If we trade Marbury for KG, I'll change my name to "Isiahfan".
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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fishmike
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8/16/2004  2:08 PM
bla bla bla... I see Isles has something new to say again.

does anyone see ALL of this talk as premature? I dont give Marbury a free pass in the playoffs. My only real knock on him were those back to back 3's which were adrenline (bad) shots early in the shot clock late in the game. Those were bad and thats the most important time in the game.. the time he needs to continue to get guys involved. As for his bad 2nd half stats did anyone watch the games? They trapped him at midcourt and forced the ball out of his hands. We were then forced to use Frank, Penny, Shandon... someone with no experience or no skills (Shandon) to set up the offenese. Then we had Marbury running around like a chicken trying to free him up off screens, picks, etc. Everyone knew Marbury was going to shoot. Penny(35%), Kurt (broken hand) Nazr (range of 8 feet), Frank (good spark inconsistant), Shandon (just sucked)... where was the offense coming from? Who was the one guy that was going to create space, ANYTHING. The Nets made an adjustment and we didnt have the personell to adjust. Plain and simple.

We just werent good enough without Houston and TT to compete against the Nets. Plain and simple. Why is this so hard to understand?

As for team USA this is a typical Knick fan discussion. ONE GAME and its nothing but threads of the selfishness of NBA players and how unfundamental the US team is. GOD FORBID they adjust, come together, rally.... Silly me, I thought this was sports.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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8/16/2004  2:17 PM
man, if this team is healthy, and they should be, i'm looking at no less that 45 wins this season (without any more additions) and as each day goes by, i'm thinking possibly 50. i think we're going to be just fine and i seriously think that we're going to be sneaking up on alot of teams and pessimistic people. this is the most excited i've been about a knicks season in a while.

fish, no matter how many times you drive the point home that we had 35 ppg game in street clothes, it doesn't matter, it's still marbury's fault for not carrying us to victory against the back to back eastern conference champions. let alone, as you said, marbury was double teamed all the freak'n time. that's why this trade for crawford is going to help us WAY more than people think just b/c of the spacing issue.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 08/16/2004 14:17:53]
fishmike
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8/16/2004  2:27 PM
I agree and I share your excitement. I dont know about the wins... I think thats realistic (45+). Its possible we get off to a slow start, but the point is I'm looking forward to a team with a lot of upside and a future.

Everything I hear about this offseason I like. Heck, even Baker has a chance to make a big impact. He's a long frontcourt player that could really help us. Look at the difference in confidence between Frank's first year and 2nd. Granted beating out Ward and Eisely is a suspect accomplishmet but he still did it. I'm looking for more of the same from Sweets this year.

Should be fun.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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8/16/2004  2:28 PM
Nobody blamed Marbury for losing that playoff series against the Nets. He deserves blame for his performances in individual playoff games though.

How come Marbury was able to play well in the 2nd half of game 4 but not in the other games? The Nets didn't play him differently and he still didn't have TT or Houston. So why is it unreasonable to expect him to have played that way in the other games when the outcomes were very much in doubt until the end?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/16/2004  2:34 PM
maybe because he's not a robot? I dont know... guys get hot. I would have to look at the play by play breakdown and analize it, but my guess is it would still come down to him being lousy or overpaid or whatever else is your flavor for the day because he's Isiah's player.

Every game is a little different. The Knicks were totally outmatched and Marbury didnt impact the series. I dont know what your fishing for besides the obvious.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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8/16/2004  2:34 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Marbury is just a statistics hog. He doesn't do the things necessary to win games, just accumulate stats. It's nothing new though, he's always been a me-first type of player for teams that never seem to meet or God forbid, exceed expectations. But he always has his enablers who never find fault with him.

In the playoffs we're told he didn't have enough talent, despite being told about the Knicks great depth and given the fact that he was terrible in the 2nd halves when the games were still being decided.

In the Olympics it's his teammates who aren't doing their part and Marbury deserves a free pass despite the fact that he was one of the PG's who couldn't stop Arroyo and couldn't get the offense to click. 22 minutes with 1 assist and you want him to get a free pass?

If Marbury wants to play the part of "Franchise Player" then everybody better accept the fact that he's going to take the heat when things go wrong and not his "supporting cast". It's interesting how as our supposed best player, Marbury never gets any blame only credit but Patrick Ewing always took the blame.

Maybe he only had 1 assist because Jefferson and Iverson shot 1 for 16 on basically wide open threes. Bottom line, this team is DEAD if Odom and Iverson aren't hitting outside shots. If Odom hadn't fouled out the game would've been MUCH closer. I agree with Fish, adjustments will be made. I don't know if it will be good enough to beat Argentina though. They look awesome.
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islesfan
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8/16/2004  2:41 PM
Posted by fishmike:

maybe because he's not a robot? I dont know... guys get hot. I would have to look at the play by play breakdown and analize it, but my guess is it would still come down to him being lousy or overpaid or whatever else is your flavor for the day because he's Isiah's player.

Every game is a little different. The Knicks were totally outmatched and Marbury didnt impact the series. I dont know what your fishing for besides the obvious.

Of course, when all else fails, go back to "You're just being a hater blah blah blah".

Let's stick to basketball. You said his excuse for playing poorly in the 2nd halves of those games was because he was missing TT and Houston. So why was he able to play better down the stretch in game 4 when he still didn't have TT or Houston? Seems to me, that excuse doesn't fly, otherwise he would have struggled in game 4 as well.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
crzymdups
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8/16/2004  2:54 PM
Obviously, Marbury is a streaky shooter. He got hot in Game 4, and was hitting from outside. It wasn't remotely close in Games 1 or 2 (how much was he even on the court in the second halves of the first two?), and Game 3 he wasn't hot from outside and was feeding Nazr and Frank and Penny, if memory serves.

Bottom line, talking about that series has no bearing on this year, because we've added three bonafide scorers: TT, Houston and Jamal.

And you may just want to wait and see on Dampier before declaring the end of the world.
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djsunyc
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8/16/2004  3:01 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

maybe because he's not a robot? I dont know... guys get hot. I would have to look at the play by play breakdown and analize it, but my guess is it would still come down to him being lousy or overpaid or whatever else is your flavor for the day because he's Isiah's player.

Every game is a little different. The Knicks were totally outmatched and Marbury didnt impact the series. I dont know what your fishing for besides the obvious.

Of course, when all else fails, go back to "You're just being a hater blah blah blah".

Let's stick to basketball. You said his excuse for playing poorly in the 2nd halves of those games was because he was missing TT and Houston. So why was he able to play better down the stretch in game 4 when he still didn't have TT or Houston? Seems to me, that excuse doesn't fly, otherwise he would have struggled in game 4 as well.

is this a serious argument? 1 out of 4 means that the nets were doing their job and we had no answer - that's it, nothing more. and lo and behold, maybe, just maybe, do you think that marbury and wilkens finally figured something out but it was a just too little too late? nah, those two are dumb as rocks.
islesfan
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8/16/2004  3:12 PM
Or how about maybe, just maybe, Marbury struggled in those 2nd halves because he just didn't play well. Wow, Marbury being responsible for his own poor play. Imagine that.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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8/16/2004  3:42 PM
you're right he didn't play well. i can admit that. i think we all can admit that based on the results. but you think that even though he had nobody else out there, nor the fact that he was double teamed even contributed to that. secondly, it wasn't until game 4 that lenny went with a back court of frank AND steph the most of the 2nd half. was it a coincidence that his play improved with another ball-handler on the court? why are those factors and reasons not even entertained by you.

all us "kool-aid" drinkers say the same thing over and over and over again, give it time before we can make an accurate assessment. so far, most of us like isiah's moves and like what we're hearing and seeing but we also know that results matter.

but not to you, it's already decided. we're stuck in a rut and isiah and marbury will never get us out of it.

man, i can't believe i'm typing this again. MONTHS after we all did the first time.
Solace
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8/16/2004  4:00 PM
This is silly. Isles is being way too critical of Marbury. Marbury isn't a 'superstar' like some make him out to be, but jesus, he's still the best player on the Knicks and is better than most of the Knicks players of the last decade. In the opinion of most, he's also a top 3 point guard. I don't know what else you could possibly want from him? It just seems like you're hating and microanalyzing any negatives, while ignoring all positives. I find myself in somewhat of a middle ground, as I'm not completely in love with Marbury as some, but I certainly try to be fair. Isles, your criticism isn't really fair, especially something like criticizing him for finally having a decent game against the Nets in game 4. That's just silly and argumentative.
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fishmike
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8/16/2004  4:02 PM
Of course, when all else fails, go back to "You're just being a hater blah blah blah".

If the shoe fits....

I already said he didnt play well. I also said he had no impact. I offered what I thought was an explanation for his poor play, that the Nets made good adjustments and the Knicks couldnt overcome the loss of Houston and TT. But you are unable to accept that as anything besides people just making excuses for Marbury, or not holding him accountable.

I dont see the point in knocking someone's performance when they are in an impossible situation. Its not about getting a free pass or making excuses. Its about throwing a slave to the lions and after he's immediatly devoured knocking him for not putting up a good enough fight.

I hate the term "hater" but it fits. You regurgitate the same anti Isiah crap everywhere you go and say the same thing over and over again. I dont see anyone around here making Knick players out to be something they arent. However when guys wear the uniform of your team a funny happens from time to time. Its called rooting for that player. This may be a tough concept to grasp... you should try following golf. That way you can love Tiger no matter where he goes or what he does.

I hated Layden, and I dogged few players more than KVH in this league. I hated the trade (Bonn will tell you) but the minute he put on the uni I was dying for this guy to succeed. When he had some good games early (vs. Kings comes to mind) I was thrilled for the guy. I didnt cry on every chat board that would have spouting bad post season stats or his current salary. Mostly because when I turned on the TV to watch hoops I wanted to enjoy my team, even if it wasnt very good.

If it bothers you so try not watching, maybe you just need a break from hoops, or maybe you just need to get that hooker Bip recommended.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/16/2004  4:09 PM
Posted by Solace:

This is silly. Isles is being way too critical of Marbury. Marbury isn't a 'superstar' like some make him out to be, but jesus, he's still the best player on the Knicks and is better than most of the Knicks players of the last decade. In the opinion of most, he's also a top 3 point guard. I don't know what else you could possibly want from him? It just seems like you're hating and microanalyzing any negatives, while ignoring all positives. I find myself in somewhat of a middle ground, as I'm not completely in love with Marbury as some, but I certainly try to be fair. Isles, your criticism isn't really fair, especially something like criticizing him for finally having a decent game against the Nets in game 4. That's just silly and argumentative.
Good post Solace. I agree with everything you said. The only very minor disagreement is that I would consider Marbury at the border between all-star and superstar and I think he'll deserve to be called a superstar if he experiences playoff success soon. But that's just a LABEL anyway; the bottom line is he's a very good player--The best player the Knicks have had since Ewing and the best PG they've had since Clyde

I hated Layden, and I dogged few players more than KVH in this league. I hated the trade (Bonn will tell you) but the minute he put on the uni I was dying for this guy to succeed.
Yeah, and I appreciated how you were dying for him to succeed. As you know, I did support the trade, although I wouldn't have if doctors had told me how serious Houston's injury and surgery were (which they must have told Layden). And in retrospect, Spree would be a better player to have running with Marbury than Van Horn. But at this point in their careers, I would take TT over Spree or Van Horn; so it worked out okay in my mind.
fishmike
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8/16/2004  4:15 PM
I think the only really bad thing you can say about the KVH trade is Layden made it. We were the smallest team in the league... we needed to do something to get bigger.

Problem was everything Layden touched turned to bantha fodder.

I dont know where Marbury is. I have seen bad shot selection at times. I've seen him force the action and not get guys involved. I've also seen a guy thats virtually unguardable at times, and a guy thats made guys like Nazr Mohammed and Mike Doleac look like big time players.

Is he inconsistant by nature? Of does he just need the right group around him long enough, and he will evolve into one of the games greats and take us to the promise land?

Only time will tell but while he's in the orange and bluee I'm rooting like hell for the latter

[Edited by - fishmike on 08/16/2004 16:17:21]
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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8/16/2004  4:16 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

you're right he didn't play well. i can admit that. i think we all can admit that based on the results. but you think that even though he had nobody else out there, nor the fact that he was double teamed even contributed to that. secondly, it wasn't until game 4 that lenny went with a back court of frank AND steph the most of the 2nd half. was it a coincidence that his play improved with another ball-handler on the court? why are those factors and reasons not even entertained by you.

all us "kool-aid" drinkers say the same thing over and over and over again, give it time before we can make an accurate assessment. so far, most of us like isiah's moves and like what we're hearing and seeing but we also know that results matter.

but not to you, it's already decided. we're stuck in a rut and isiah and marbury will never get us out of it.

man, i can't believe i'm typing this again. MONTHS after we all did the first time.

Of course having Houston and TT available would have made Marbury's job a little easier but I don't get how you can say that he had nobody when all I heard going into the playoffs was about the great depth that the Knicks had.

As for Frank helping Marbury in game 4 with some of the ball handling responsibilities, wasn't Penny doing the same thing in the previous games? I'm not saying that adjustments weren't made but the bottom line is that Marbury played poorly down the stretch of a few very winnable games.

Nobody is saying that Marbury should have won that series by himself but more than a few people are suggesting that Marbury was more of an innocent bystander than a key figure in a few of those losses.

Wait, you're allowed to like Isiah's moves and like what you're seeing and hearing but I'm not allowed to dislike his moves and think that what we're seeing and hearing is nothing but lip service? If I think that then I'm just not being patient? Shouldn't it work both ways? I've certainly never said that the world was coming to an end the way some like to think.

I do agree that results matter. I've said for months now that the Knicks feel like an organization that's going to be happy with being a 42-48 win team that never gets past the 2nd rd, at best. And that's in a very bad and top heavy conference. If I'm proven wrong I'll happily admit it.

Yeah, talk about deja vu.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
MaRbUrYiSaKnIcK
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8/16/2004  4:34 PM
Lol Islesfan, if you had the talent of Marbury and your were in the Knicks, could you have won with your god damned teamates(Penny,Nazy,Shandon,and Kurt). Well I didn't think so either. Anybody with eyes could tell that Nobody could have passed the first round like that, especially against the Former Eastern Conference Champion Nets.
Marbury is finally home at MSG!
fishmike
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8/16/2004  4:43 PM
stop making excuses for Marbury!!! He played poorly! Just admit it damn you! Admit it!!! AHHHHHH
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MaRbUrYiSaKnIcK
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8/16/2004  5:33 PM
lol never
Marbury is finally home at MSG!
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