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Welcome the future Knick... Austin Rivers
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EnySpree
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3/22/2017  6:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/22/2017  1:52 PM
Fun fact... he was born the same year Doc Rivers came to the Knicks in 1992...

He was a Duke phenom. All American in high school. He's had trouble with his ego and confidence. I feel he's gotten a hold of that and is ready for a coming out season. He's a spot starter, super sub. He might be ready to start. He's an excellent ball handler and is a legit 3pt shooter now. Classic combo guard with more of a point guard style of play. Could do well in the triangle. I think he would fit well with the young guys we have. He's a young vet.

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nyknickzingis
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3/22/2017  7:36 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/22/2017  7:38 AM
The problem with Austin Rivers is that outide of when his dad has coached him, he has struggled in the NBA.
He may only be able to play at this level with his dad coaching him.

His advanced numbers are

2.1 Win Shares
-1.4 BPM
20% Usage Rate
55% True Shooting percentage

He's basically an average NBA player.
The plus is that's 24, he's still getting better as a NBA player and he's got lots of gas in the tank, something that our team has struggled with the last few years (Not enough young guys starting, with sufficient energy)

I don't know what the Melo trade if it happens will look like, but you would like to think that the Knicks could get more than Austin Rivers. We need another bigger piece to make sense of a trade like that.

Knixkik
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3/22/2017  8:15 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:The problem with Austin Rivers is that outide of when his dad has coached him, he has struggled in the NBA.
He may only be able to play at this level with his dad coaching him.

His advanced numbers are

2.1 Win Shares
-1.4 BPM
20% Usage Rate
55% True Shooting percentage

He's basically an average NBA player.
The plus is that's 24, he's still getting better as a NBA player and he's got lots of gas in the tank, something that our team has struggled with the last few years (Not enough young guys starting, with sufficient energy)

I don't know what the Melo trade if it happens will look like, but you would like to think that the Knicks could get more than Austin Rivers. We need another bigger piece to make sense of a trade like that.

He struggled before his dad but that was at 19, 20, and 21 years old. He is getting better every year and that's a great sign. He would fit well here in the youth movement.

fishmike
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3/22/2017  8:37 AM
Rivers is pretty much a warm body. What is interesting is Phil tried to get him as a free agent. I didnt realize they had advanced meetings and Rivers was strongly recruited by the Knicks. So for what its worth there is interest from our side. River's numbers are utterly average and his defensive metrics are not very good.

Doc point blank said the Clippers would have made any of those trades suggested in the paper so they are clearly willing as well. Aside from Rivers (who strikes me as pretty average and probably not as good as Lee) the Clippers have VERY little to offer the Knicks. They owe Toronto their first rounder this year so they would have to do something creative to get us a reasonable asset or two to make this trade happen.

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yellowboy90
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3/22/2017  12:38 PM
fishmike wrote:Rivers is pretty much a warm body. What is interesting is Phil tried to get him as a free agent. I didnt realize they had advanced meetings and Rivers was strongly recruited by the Knicks. So for what its worth there is interest from our side. River's numbers are utterly average and his defensive metrics are not very good.

Doc point blank said the Clippers would have made any of those trades suggested in the paper so they are clearly willing as well. Aside from Rivers (who strikes me as pretty average and probably not as good as Lee) the Clippers have VERY little to offer the Knicks. They owe Toronto their first rounder this year so they would have to do something creative to get us a reasonable asset or two to make this trade happen.

Phil really likes below average guards for some reason. It makes me doubt that he believes in advance stats. I think he just looks at height, weight, and body type to make his decisions along with using the eye test and box score stats to judge skills. Stuff like this scares me and why I think he is not fit to build a team of players that fit together.

Also, Rivers was far from a college phenom but he was a High school phenom. Rivers and Beal would have made a great tandem at UF though but Rivers backed out of his commitment.

nyk4ever
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3/22/2017  12:46 PM
i have absolutely zero interest in rivers. doesn't strike me as very good, even in todays nba where smaller players are having great success. i see him as a decent rotation player, but nothing else.
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crzymdups
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3/22/2017  1:01 PM
This miiiiiiight be a little bit of counting one's chickens before they hatch.
¿ △ ?
EnySpree
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3/22/2017  1:54 PM
crzymdups wrote:This miiiiiiight be a little bit of counting one's chickens before they hatch.

Or it could be an amusing thread all up to you

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newyorknewyork
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3/22/2017  3:49 PM
He plays fast
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SupremeCommander
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3/22/2017  3:53 PM
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:This miiiiiiight be a little bit of counting one's chickens before they hatch.

Or it could be an amusing thread all up to you

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CrushAlot
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3/22/2017  4:02 PM
Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
crzymdups
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3/22/2017  6:04 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
crzymdups wrote:This miiiiiiight be a little bit of counting one's chickens before they hatch.

Or it could be an amusing thread all up to you

I took the red pill years ago.

¿ △ ?
meloshouldgo
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3/22/2017  7:03 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?

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CrushAlot
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3/22/2017  7:20 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?


Phil making horrible trades and getting pennies on the dollar for his moves. In this case he set the table with the ntc, the huge salary and the huge trade kicker.
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meloshouldgo
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3/22/2017  7:24 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?


Phil making horrible trades and getting pennies on the dollar for his moves. In this case he set the table with the ntc, the huge salary and the huge trade kicker.

Or maybe certain dollars arent worth a dollar anywhere except in the dep recesses of the minds of certain Knicks fans. Please elaborate on what value is available in trade for Melo. Did any of the teams even think he was worth a first round pick? NOPE.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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3/22/2017  7:30 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?


Phil making horrible trades and getting pennies on the dollar for his moves. In this case he set the table with the ntc, the huge salary and the huge trade kicker.

Or maybe certain dollars arent worth a dollar anywhere except in the dep recesses of the minds of certain Knicks fans. Please elaborate on what value is available in trade for Melo. Did any of the teams even think he was worth a first round pick? NOPE.

Melo was given a contract that is almost impossible to trade. Melo without the kicker, and ntc is very movable. Not sure why he was given so much by Phil but it fits a pattern of a guy that still thinks he knows more than everybody else making mistakes.
You don't get it. I am fine with Melo being moved. It is just a shame that the guy running things turned him into a player that it will be very hard to get anything for because of the ridiculous ntc and trade kicker he was given.
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meloshouldgo
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3/22/2017  7:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/22/2017  7:57 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?


Phil making horrible trades and getting pennies on the dollar for his moves. In this case he set the table with the ntc, the huge salary and the huge trade kicker.

Or maybe certain dollars arent worth a dollar anywhere except in the dep recesses of the minds of certain Knicks fans. Please elaborate on what value is available in trade for Melo. Did any of the teams even think he was worth a first round pick? NOPE.

Melo was given a contract that is almost impossible to trade. Melo without the kicker, and ntc is very movable. Not sure why he was given so much by Phil but it fits a pattern of a guy that still thinks he knows more than everybody else making mistakes.
You don't get it. I am fine with Melo being moved. It is just a shame that the guy running things turned him into a player that it will be very hard to get anything for because of the ridiculous ntc and trade kicker he was given.

You are fine with Melo being moved so what exactly is your issue? What do you think we should be getting back in return? Steph Curry? Can you name one team in the NBA that would give up anything better than Austin Rivers for Melo even if the NTC and Kicker were off the table? How many teams actively pursued Melo in the offseason two years ago when he was an FA?

Why is the NTC and Kicker a problem, if he is so valuable don't you think those teams would want him for at least two years? So what exactly is the problem?

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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3/22/2017  8:07 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Fits the pattern. I don't think he is that good of a player.

What pattern does it fit?


Phil making horrible trades and getting pennies on the dollar for his moves. In this case he set the table with the ntc, the huge salary and the huge trade kicker.

Or maybe certain dollars arent worth a dollar anywhere except in the dep recesses of the minds of certain Knicks fans. Please elaborate on what value is available in trade for Melo. Did any of the teams even think he was worth a first round pick? NOPE.

Melo was given a contract that is almost impossible to trade. Melo without the kicker, and ntc is very movable. Not sure why he was given so much by Phil but it fits a pattern of a guy that still thinks he knows more than everybody else making mistakes.
You don't get it. I am fine with Melo being moved. It is just a shame that the guy running things turned him into a player that it will be very hard to get anything for because of the ridiculous ntc and trade kicker he was given.

You are fine with Melo being moved so what exactly is your issue? What do you think we should be getting back in return? Steph Curry? Can you name one team in the NBA that would give up anything better than Austin Rivers for Melo even if the NTC and Kicker were off the table? How many teams actively pursued Melo in the offseason two years ago when he was an FA?

Why is the NTC and Kicker a problem, if he is so valuable don't you think those teams would want him for at least two years? So what exactly is the problem?

He gets to choose where he wants to go. He wants a contender but most cannot acquire him because of their cap situation or because they have gone all in and don't have picks or young players to send back. His trade kicker makes his already outrageous salary extremely hard to trade. So right away you have diminishing returns created by the ntc and trade kicker. Add to that the fact that the guy trying to trade him has made it public that he wants to move him, has trashed him in the media and has a history of getting pennies on the dollar and the return doesn't look good for the Knicks. In regards to teams giving up something for Melo if he didn't have the ntc and trade kicker, I believe there would be a lot. It opens the market. Currently there are two or three teams that he might consider. I think the Knicks should be getting a lot more than Austin Rivers and matching salary contracts.
I have posted this article from a Clippers blog where the writer took an in depth look at what it would take to get Melo and make it work with the Clipper's cap at the deadline but I will post it again as it illustrates just how complex Phil made Melo's deal to trade when you limit teams to the players choice and give a huge trade kicker. The author suggests in one scenario that Melo might waive the trade kicker that Phil gave him. Do you think that is going to happen?
First of all, Anthony has a trade kicker worth 15% of his remaining contract. For 41 more games this year and 82 games each of the next two years, Anthony is scheduled to make $66,451,590. 15% of that salary is $9,967,739, and because the final year of Anthony’s deal is following an early termination option, that bonus must be split between the two guaranteed years of his contract. That extra $4,983,869 this year moves his salary up to $29,543,249. In order to match that salary, they’d have to send out about $23,554,600.
That one isn’t too rough—what’s rougher is the Clippers’ hard cap situation:

The Clippers are hard-capped at $117,287,000 because they used their full non-taxpayer mid-level exception this summer to sign Wesley Johnson. They currently have $2,546,968 in wiggle room underneath that hard cap. That means, essentially, that for any trade to be legal, the following must be true:

(incoming salary) - (outgoing salary) </= $2,546,968

By that formula, the Clippers must send out at least $26,996,281 in salary. It’s important to note that this is the far, far low end of the spectrum for outgoing salary: this places the Clippers at 100% of their hard cap allowance, without any room to sign players into their open roster spots. Depending on the deal, it’s likely that the Clippers will need at least some wiggle room for buyout additions.
So, pretty straightforward. Here’s what gets tricky: players are allowed to waive their trade bonuses under certain situations. It doesn’t really apply here, which is why I chose not to include it in the original article, but I want to talk about it now for two reasons: to clear up the most common question I’m getting on Melo trade math, and to raise an interesting asset management idea I reached following discussions on Melo’s trade kicker on twitter.

Let’s look at how the basic version of the trade goes down:

First, send Wesley Johnson anywhere, for nothing, into a team’s cap room or a TPE. This creates a 5.6M TPE for LAC, and gives them roughly 8.2M in room under the hard cap. Now, they can move Jamal Crawford and Austin Rivers for Anthony and have the space to take back Carmelo’s salary without matching it dollar-for-dollar. Still, Rivers and Crawford make a combined $24.25M—125% of that is over 30 million, which means Carmelo wouldn’t be able to waive part of that trade kicker.

The outcome of this deal is the same as that of the Rivers/Crawford/Johnson for Anthony swap I outlined before—even in a direct trade with the Knicks, they’d set the deal up so that a TPE would be created for Wesley Johnson’s 5.6M salary.

So, we tried something, but it didn’t let Melo waive his bonus, so his salary is still giant, and it didn’t save the Clippers from sending out anything extra.

Let’s switch some stuff around and build something that makes him waive his bonus:

If the Clippers send Austin, Jamal, Wesley, and Alan Anderson to the Knicks, they can create an even bigger TPE and force Melo to decline his bonus. From New York’s perspective, this is simply one trade—Anthony goes out (24.5M) and Rivers, Crawford, Johnson, and Anderson come back (30.8M), which is a legal trade. From the Clippers’ perspective, it works as two trades:

Rivers (11M) goes to the Knicks for nothing, creating an 11M TPE, and

Crawford, Johnson, and Anderson (19.8M) go to the Knicks for Anthony (24.5M), which is a legal trade

Since the Clippers would be sending out $19,861,443 in salary in the Anthony trade, the max that they’d be able to bring back would be $24,926,804—that gives Carmelo only about $500,000 of his trade bonus, forcing him to waive the rest for the trade to go through. It actually increases the Clippers’ wiggle room under the hard cap, since they’re sending out more salary than they’re taking back, and it takes LAC out of taxpayer territory by a few million. Then, next season when they likely won’t be restricted by the hard cap, they’ll have that $11 million Rivers TPE to work with—we’ve seen how valuable those big exceptions have been for Cleveland in adding role players for nothing.

Just for fun, here’s an even crazier idea that could never happen:

Send Wesley, Jamal, Paul Pierce, and Anderson all out for Carmelo Anthony. This trade is the only way I can conceive to legally land Anthony on the Clippers and retain Austin Rivers for the bench. Paul Pierce serves the same function as Austin Rivers above—he goes out for a TPE to create enough room for the Clippers to fit Melo under the hard cap, while the same Crawford/Johnson/Anderson package is actually swapped for Melo. The Clippers’ total outgoing salary in this deal is $22.9 million, and Melo’s incoming salary is the same as above—$24.9. The Clippers’ 2.6 million of wiggle room under the hard cap shrinks to $600,000, but it’s all legal, and the Clippers keep Austin. They’d have to use that last shred of flexibility to sign a player (they’d only have 12, and teams are required to carry 13), and the Knicks would have to cut three guys (presumably, Anderson, Pierce, and one of their own benchwarmers).

The problem, of course, is that there’s no trade value in that Clippers package—this is definitely a scenario where they’d have to work with Toronto and Boston to remove protections, freeing up two future first-round picks to go to the Knicks in 2021 and 2023.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2017/1/21/14344586/nba-trade-rumors-carmelo-anthony-clippers-knicks-bonus-jamal-crawford-austin-rivers
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
meloshouldgo
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3/22/2017  8:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/22/2017  8:59 PM
The article only talks about how bad the Clippers cap situation is. Phil didn't limit Melo's market to the Clippers Melo did. You can spin that how you like, but no dice.
Like I said if teams thought he was valuable they would take him on for two years and the kicker would be a non issue. Problem is they don't think he is that valuable, no one has yet named one team willing to trade a starter that would be of value for a young rebuilding team. NOT ONE.

It's because net negative players aren't valued as swaps for potential starters for years to come, the only price they'll fetch are bad contracts or question marks. So yes, I'll be happy with Austin Rivers straight up for Melo. I would be happy with a bag of M&Ms, getting him off the roster is value enough for me and for the future of the team.

As for Phil, I have always said giving Melo any contract was a horrible idea. The most I would have offered him was $80MM for 5 years take it or go jump. And yes I said that during that off season. But I also think Phil was trying to get full control of the Knicks and keeping Melo on Melo's terms was part of the price he had to pay Dolan. That's conjecture on my part and we will never know. But I don't think Phil would have wanted Melo that badly or just given him the NTC to look good. You don't win 11 rings by being STOOPID, just ask Melo he is still working on ring number 1, but he has STOOPID down pat.

I am happy that Phil is at least trying to rebuild the franchise from ground up the only way possible in NY. If he didn't keep Melo and try to get players around him, he would have been fired years ago - every Knicks fan already knows this. But Phil is still here and that's because he took a strategy of letting Melo play out his course while he(Phil) rebuilds the team. Phil has drafted two first round talents with one first round pick. He has got solid vets like Lance, Holiday and Lee who can all be part of the team going forward. And he is positioned to draft another starter for the future.

I don't expect every draft pick to be a home run and I don't do revisionist history. I am willing to be patient. I honestly don't care if Melo stays or goes as long as the team maintains the right focus. Draft good high IQ players and build a culture of playing team first system basketball. For that I am grateful to Phil.


POGS

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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3/22/2017  9:06 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:The article only talks about how bad the Clippers cap situation is. Phil didn't limit Melo's market to the Clippers Melo did. You can spin that how you like, but no dice.
Like I said if teams thought he was valuable they would take him on for two years and the kicker would be a non issue. Problem is they don't think he is that valuable, no one has yet named one team willing to trade a starter that would be of value for a young rebuilding team. NOT ONE.

It's because net negative players aren't valued as swaps for potential starters for years to come, the only price they'll fetch are bad contracts or question marks. So yes, I'll be happy with Austin Rivers straight up for Melo. I would be happy with a bag of M&Ms, getting him off the roster is value enough for me and for the future of the team.

As for Phil, I have always said giving Melo any contract was a horrible idea. The most I would have offered him was $80MM for 5 years take it or go jump. And yes I said that during that off season. But I also think Phil was trying to get full control of the Knicks and keeping Melo on Melo's terms was part of the price he had to pay Dolan. That's conjecture on my part and we will never know. But I don't think Phil would have wanted Melo that badly or just given him the NTC to look good. You don't win 11 rings by being STOOPID, just ask Melo he is still working on ring number 1, but he has STOOPID down pat.

I am happy that Phil is at least trying to rebuild the franchise from ground up the only way possible in NY. If he didn't keep Melo and try to get players around him, he would have been fired years ago - every Knicks fan already knows this. But Phil is still here and that's because he took a strategy of letting Melo play out his course while he(Phil) rebuilds the team. Phil has drafted two first round talents with one first round pick. He has got solid vets like Lance, Holiday and Lee who can all be part of the team going forward. And he is positioned to draft another starter for the future.

I don't expect every draft pick to be a home run and I don't do revisionist history. I am willing to be patient. I honestly don't care if Melo stays or goes as long as the team maintains the right focus. Draft good high IQ players and build a culture of playing team first system basketball. For that I am grateful to Phil.


POGS

Phil is rebuilding by accident. It hasn't been his intent. In regards to Melo saying where he will accept a trade, that is his right because Phil gave him that and a trade kicker. You don't like Melo I get that. But don't let your hate for him blind you to how inept Phil has been. Maybe the fourth time is the charm with the resets but the 17-18 season hasn't started yet and he has already undermined his coach again.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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