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Man is Courtney Lee an inconsistent non material
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BRIGGS
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3/21/2017  7:36 AM
Player. Same path all year-- not much effect on the game-- either goes 5-9 or 2-5 -- rarely hits a shot that's effective to the team. He's a bench player that is our starting 2 and he'll be 33 coming up with 3 big years left on the contract . Did anyone have a worse free agency than us and Memphis?
RIP Crushalot😞
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nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  7:45 AM
Holy **** Briggs is there ANYTHING you don't complain about?
Lee is doing what his role was supposed to.
He takes the open or looks that come to a 4th/5th option.
He tries to follow coach's plan.
He gives defensive effort.

He's a 4th or 5th option role player.
He is not a guy who you want to rely on for 15 points a night.

franco12
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3/21/2017  7:52 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Player. Same path all year-- not much effect on the game-- either goes 5-9 or 2-5 -- rarely hits a shot that's effective to the team. He's a bench player that is our starting 2 and he'll be 33 coming up with 3 big years left on the contract . Did anyone have a worse free agency than us and Memphis?

He's not 33 until next year!

He'll be 32 this fall.

And yes, I agree - we had a monumentally horrific off season.

But hey, it could have been worse - Phil could have thrown in 2 future first rounders in for Rose like past GM's might have.

nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  7:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  7:56 AM
Lee was good in Charlotte. They really miss him. One of our games this year against CHA i caught the game on the CHA feed and the commentators were all over Lee. They appreciated his efforts.

The problem with our team is not guys like Lee or what they are paid. It's more about what Melo, Rose and Noah are paid. Melo is paid like a superstar, but plays like a borderline all-star (wouldn't have made it this year had not someone got hurt). Rose is paid like a star point guard when his net impact is of an average starting point (at best). And Noah is paid to be a major defensive force who brings defensive culture and the glue guy on offense ... and he sucked for 18M.

That's the main problem .... find a way to get rid of the Melo/Rose/Noah situation. A team can't have three big contracts like that where all 3 players way underproduce for their respective contract.

Blaming rookies/sophs like KP/Willy or cheap and/or useful role players like Holiday/O'Quinn/Thomas or Lee is weak sauce.

I would love to have 18+25+21 M back, to rebuild this team. That's Noah's, Melo's and Rose's salary.

Willy/O'Quinn
KP/Kuz
SF/Thomas
Lee/Holiday
PG/Baker/Randle

Give us 63 M to go shopping for a few small forwards and a point guard. Around the above team. Easily could form a playoff team. But Phil made major mistakes in investing in Rose, Melo and Noah. Rose's contract is not going to hurt us. Melo hopefully will be traded. But Noah, that will stick for a few years. Bad moves by Phil.

nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  8:01 AM
You look at Chicago they are missing the playoffs and they made the same mistakes as us. They went for vets like Rondo, Wade, and already had Gibson (Now traded) and some other vets from Thibs time. They couldn't make the playoffs. They even have a star in his prime, like Butler, who is much ahead in his career and development than our young star, KP. So they couldn't get it done, despite having a star in his prime. Atleast Chicago went with short term contracts for Wade/Rondo (2 year deals I think).

Paying big money for declining star/former star players is never a good idea. It's the major mitake Phil made. He needed to see that Melo was going to decline over the course of his contract and should never have agreed to the NTC. He shouldn't have touched Noah on that contract. Rose even now, I am ok with it, because was a 1 year deal, and we got Holiday and a 2nd round pick out of it.

I am hoping by middle of the summer, Noah is the only big contract left on the team.

KnicksFE
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3/21/2017  8:01 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Lee was good in Charlotte. They really miss him. One of our games this year against CHA i caught the game on the CHA feed and the commentators were all over Lee. They appreciated his efforts.

The problem with our team is not guys like Lee or what they are paid. It's more about what Melo, Rose and Noah are paid. Melo is paid like a superstar, but plays like a borderline all-star (wouldn't have made it this year had not someone got hurt). Rose is paid like a star point guard when his net impact is of an average starting point (at best). And Noah is paid to be a major defensive force who brings defensive culture and the glue guy on offense ... and he sucked for 18M.

That's the main problem .... find a way to get rid of the Melo/Rose/Noah situation. A team can't have three big contracts like that where all 3 players way underproduce for their respective contract.

Blaming rookies/sophs like KP/Willy or cheap and/or useful role players like Holiday/O'Quinn/Thomas or Lee is weak sauce.

I would love to have 18+25+21 M back, to rebuild this team. That's Noah's, Melo's and Rose's salary.

Willy/O'Quinn
KP/Kuz
SF/Thomas
Lee/Holiday
PG/Baker/Randle

Give us 63 M to go shopping for a few small forwards and a point guard. Around the above team. Easily could form a playoff team. But Phil made major mistakes in investing in Rose, Melo and Noah. Rose's contract is not going to hurt us. Melo hopefully will be traded. But Noah, that will stick for a few years. Bad moves by Phil.

Courtney Lee is making almost 50 million, how is the cheap?

nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  8:04 AM
I wrote cheap and/or useful role players, He's paid market value, but if you look back at the market last summer, it took Noah talking to Lee and Lee taking LESS money to come to NY. Lee had offers in excess of 15M. People look at Parsons. Dude has played a few games for Memphis and been out almost all season. The market was crazy last year, Lee at the time was seen as a bargain, as was Jennings.
fishmike
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3/21/2017  8:41 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Holy **** Briggs is there ANYTHING you don't complain about?
Lee is doing what his role was supposed to.
He takes the open or looks that come to a 4th/5th option.
He tries to follow coach's plan.
He gives defensive effort.

He's a 4th or 5th option role player.
He is not a guy who you want to rely on for 15 points a night.


Well usually this just means that Allan Crabbe and Seth Curry had bad games so rather than start a thread on them its trash Lee.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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3/21/2017  8:54 AM
fishmike wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Holy **** Briggs is there ANYTHING you don't complain about?
Lee is doing what his role was supposed to.
He takes the open or looks that come to a 4th/5th option.
He tries to follow coach's plan.
He gives defensive effort.

He's a 4th or 5th option role player.
He is not a guy who you want to rely on for 15 points a night.


Well usually this just means that Allan Crabbe and Seth Curry had bad games so rather than start a thread on them its trash Lee.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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3/21/2017  8:58 AM
whats funny is Lee is the same player as Crabbe... a guy Briggs has a constant boner for.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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3/21/2017  9:09 AM
fishmike wrote:whats funny is Lee is the same player as Crabbe... a guy Briggs has a constant boner for.

and said he should be paid 80+million.. yet he's bitching about lee's contract.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BigRedDog
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3/21/2017  9:27 AM
I agree with Briggs here. Its not about comparing players, its about what Lee gives us. As a starting SG Lee just doesn't cut it. You need your SG to shoot more than 4 shots a game. Lee has a good outside shot and so many times he cuts around a screen, is wide open and passes the ball. Hornechek also has been telling Lee to shoot more. This team needs more balanced scoring and we can't have a SG afraid to shoot.
Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
fishmike
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3/21/2017  9:37 AM
BigRedDog wrote:I agree with Briggs here. Its not about comparing players, its about what Lee gives us. As a starting SG Lee just doesn't cut it. You need your SG to shoot more than 4 shots a game. Lee has a good outside shot and so many times he cuts around a screen, is wide open and passes the ball. Hornechek also has been telling Lee to shoot more. This team needs more balanced scoring and we can't have a SG afraid to shoot.
Lee isnt here for his scoring. He's here to defend, move the ball and space the floor. Things he does pretty well. He's also got a cap friendly contract
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Finestrg
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3/21/2017  9:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  9:46 AM
Noah was a horrific signing; Lee was a bad signing. Simple as that. Not much we can do about Noah but I think we might be able to deal off Lee. A good trade at the deadline would've been Lee to NO straight up for Solomon Hill. For whatever reason(s) (haven't seen enough of the Pels this season to know), Hill's had a rough year but I still believe he's got considerable upside. Dude's only 26 -- he's got real good size for a wing, ample toughness and a good all-around skill level. Makes the same as Lee -- both signed for 4 yrs/$48mm. NO made the big trade for Boogie--I wonder if they've soured on Hill and would prefer a little more immediate consistency at the 2/3 position headed into next year. This is something I'd initiate/pursue in the offseason if I were Phil. Try to swap out an aging Lee for a younger player with upside, a guy his current team may have soured on. Worth a shot--I'd rather move forward with Hill over Lee. Doubtful we could do anything else better for Lee (at least we'd get a little younger--meanwhile Hill still could get better. A LOT better) and Noah's not going anywhere. Just an idea.


crzymdups
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3/21/2017  10:10 AM
I feel Courtney Lee is a bellweather for this team.

If the ball was moving and the team was playing defense, he could be a valuable part of that. He's not going to jump start it himself, but he can be a very functional cog within a well-oiled machine.

There have been games where the ball is moving and finds the open man - Lee is often open and rarely gets the ball - but those rare games the ball moves, he gets an easy 15-20pts.

Though I think this season has sucked some of the life out of him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Phil move him over the summer along with Melo. He seems like he completely regrets coming here.

Anyway, it's a good contract and he is wasted here as a decent asset. There's no point in keeping him around through a rebuild. He'll be very easy to trade. It'd be nice to get something of value back for him, but we know how that goes.

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BigDaddyG
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3/21/2017  10:14 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  10:20 AM
crzymdups wrote:I feel Courtney Lee is a bellweather for this team.

If the ball was moving and the team was playing defense, he could be a valuable part of that. He's not going to jump start it himself, but he can be a very functional cog within a well-oiled machine.

There have been games where the ball is moving and finds the open man - Lee is often open and rarely gets the ball - but those rare games the ball moves, he gets an easy 15-20pts.

Though I think this season has sucked some of the life out of him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Phil move him over the summer along with Melo. He seems like he completely regrets coming here.

Anyway, it's a good contract and he is wasted here as a decent asset. There's no point in keeping him around through a rebuild. He'll be very easy to trade. It'd be nice to get something of value back for him, but we know how that goes.


Exactly. Lee has proven that he makes solid teams better. He did it for Charlotte and he did the same thing on Memphis. The problem is that we're not good.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
BRIGGS
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3/21/2017  10:27 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Holy **** Briggs is there ANYTHING you don't complain about?
Lee is doing what his role was supposed to.
He takes the open or looks that come to a 4th/5th option.
He tries to follow coach's plan.
He gives defensive effort.

He's a 4th or 5th option role player.
He is not a guy who you want to rely on for 15 points a night.

I know we have KP and he should improve but we have major league problems. I dont think you want to pencil in C Lee as you starting 2 guard the next 3 years--Im sure he can find a place on the bench--but where does a pro starting SG come from? Denver--they are over loaded??

RIP Crushalot😞
Zebo13
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3/21/2017  10:33 AM
crzymdups wrote:I feel Courtney Lee is a bellweather for this team.

If the ball was moving and the team was playing defense, he could be a valuable part of that. He's not going to jump start it himself, but he can be a very functional cog within a well-oiled machine.

There have been games where the ball is moving and finds the open man - Lee is often open and rarely gets the ball - but those rare games the ball moves, he gets an easy 15-20pts.

Though I think this season has sucked some of the life out of him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Phil move him over the summer along with Melo. He seems like he completely regrets coming here.

Anyway, it's a good contract and he is wasted here as a decent asset. There's no point in keeping him around through a rebuild. He'll be very easy to trade. It'd be nice to get something of value back for him, but we know how that goes.

Exactly. He was meant to 3 and D, and he's done a pretty good job of that. Nobody can be a great defender when they're not getting help. And he's one of he top 3pt % shooters in the league.

LivingLegend
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3/21/2017  11:39 AM
I'm no big fan of C-Lee but if NOT traded he will at least be a good soldier, locker-room, leader for our younger squads over the next few years.

I suspect he will be moved at some point but unless some team gets desperate at next Feb's trade deadline we won't get much in return.

nyknickzingis
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3/21/2017  11:55 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/21/2017  11:59 AM
I feel we'd be making a mistake if we trade our 3nD guys like Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee and even Baker is becoming one (he needs to keep working on his 3 ball).

3 best role players on the team are Thomas, Lee and Baker. Justin Holiday is also quite good.

Maybe they are all suited for the bench, or maybe they are suited playing off a couple of stars that actually pass the ball. Look at how much Rivers, Paul and the Clipper team pass the ball. They don't overlook the open man. They constantly look for DeAndre and Blake. Do we do that with KP? We're not a team that really looks much for the open man.

Here's what Hornachek said - and he followed the team all season as coach. I would take Horny's opinion seriously, as after all he was the one in charge on the floor. Horny feels this team had too many players and times where they settled and went for a good to ok shot, instead of getting a great shot. The extra passes weren't made.

Players like Lance Thomas, CLee, Holiday and Baker all are useful if the ball moves. If the ball isn't moving they are useless on offense because they don't really create a shot at a high level. They are support players.

KP has to improve his passing because he like Melo does not pass the ball much. However as a big man, I don't feel KP's job is to pass as much as it's the guards and ballhandling wings. They must keep looking for targets. We don't play that way all the time. We have stretches where we do that, and then we'll revert back to Rose constantly driving, Melo isolating and stuff like that. KP's become a much more aggressive scorer this year with tryiing to make his own isolation plays and take contested shots. That's not helped the cause in terms of team ball movement.

Man is Courtney Lee an inconsistent non material

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