holfresh wrote:I was just saying 2-3 years of lottery ball is in our future..But we need a GM with a plan..We need perimeter players in this perimeter league..Better defenders..

I saw JCraw blow by Ron Burgandy..It reminded me one guy was there on talent and the other is there on hustle...You need talent in this league..

Nope you're off-- good teams have talented players who play hard

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

EnySpree wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

He tried and failed at winning now. He did not fail at stockpiling youth. He's got to finish off his contract and then we can evaluate what to do next. We expect to be in the lotto this off season and ther next. That coinsides with that plan... so we all just need to chill and enjoy this. It's never been done before. Id hate to miss this journey crying

He tried and failed, but it wasn't close. He badly misjudged talent and how it would fit together.

If Dolan could bring someone in that could say - like Briggs thread - we're 3-5 years away, lets plan for that and act accordingly- then he has to make that move.

I'm not sure Phil believes we're that far away.

Why else do you bring in a pair of FA that are on the wrong side of 30?

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

He picked up Rose, Noah & Lee & Jennings.

He basically had no choice but to fill the remaining spots with rookies because he had already maxed out his cap space.

Who are these great rookies Phil brought in to build the future with? Ron Baker? Kuz? Randle? Those three are borderline NBA players, and would be sitting on the bench on better teams.

I know I don't know what Phil was thinking. But I think it is reasonably to assume that as a GM, you don't hand out 4 year deals to Noah & Lee if you're thinking they'll be great for the kids. Sorry, Herb Williams is around.

You don't trade Lopez who has played every game for, in essence, two players that barely played 82 between them last year in Noah & Rose.

You don't bring in Rose, and then change your mind because, well, he doesn't fit the triangle. Phil is not paid $12M a year to rely on hindsight.

So while I don't know for sure what Phil was thinking, he sure acted and traded out like he thought things were going to be way better.

Because if you thought we were going to end up in the lottery, he could have saved $50M by not acquiring Rose, Lee & Noah and achieved the same results.

Look, his gamble was SO BAD, I have to question his judgement.

You can cry about how Phil THOUGHT this would be a contender and how terrible his judgement is. We are also a few months from the draft and despite missing first rounders in 2 of the last 3 draft and despite Phil's all in and win now mode we continue to add young players.

And no... Phil did NOT "have" to add rookies. There are plenty of older veteran players that know the league and needed jobs. Phil chose prospects and guys they thought they could develop.

smackeddog wrote:We need at least 2 years of the lottery. You can't project 3 to 5 years ahead because it completely depends on who you draft- pointless. We might draft 2 all stars in a row, we might draft 2 bums. I can understand this thread if it was "I'm worried we'll suck for the next 5 years", but you've changed it in to a statement of fact (anxiety creates its own reality)

Alt-Briggs? HA.
For what is worth, i like this version better, since he seems to be talking about rebuilding.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

if you are so convinced at how good he thought this team would be why didnt he build it up? He could have traded future assets to take this to the next level. He didnt. You know why? He's a much smarter GM than you give him credit for.

You think Phil thought this would compete? Why? Because he said so? Is that why he had 5 rookies on the roster? Because he was convinced this team would compete? You guys come to these conclusions than say them over and over until you think they are true.

Phil's FA offseason was to give Melo his chance to play with some better talent and probably show Dolan the only path to rebuilding this is with young coachable players.

He picked up Rose, Noah & Lee & Jennings.

He basically had no choice but to fill the remaining spots with rookies because he had already maxed out his cap space.

Who are these great rookies Phil brought in to build the future with? Ron Baker? Kuz? Randle? Those three are borderline NBA players, and would be sitting on the bench on better teams.

I know I don't know what Phil was thinking. But I think it is reasonably to assume that as a GM, you don't hand out 4 year deals to Noah & Lee if you're thinking they'll be great for the kids. Sorry, Herb Williams is around.

You don't trade Lopez who has played every game for, in essence, two players that barely played 82 between them last year in Noah & Rose.

You don't bring in Rose, and then change your mind because, well, he doesn't fit the triangle. Phil is not paid $12M a year to rely on hindsight.

So while I don't know for sure what Phil was thinking, he sure acted and traded out like he thought things were going to be way better.

Because if you thought we were going to end up in the lottery, he could have saved $50M by not acquiring Rose, Lee & Noah and achieved the same results.

Look, his gamble was SO BAD, I have to question his judgement.

He got Rose for peanuts, Jennings on a one year 5 mil deal. Noah and Lee might not be leading us to the playoffs but are still quality veterans to have on the team. Well in theory anyway don't know if they actually lived up to there reputations. Their skill sets fit Rose and Melo perfectly. Lee: 3&D, low usage efficient shooter. Noah: defense, intangibles, rebounding, amazing passer. These aren't illogical moves in terms of fit. This isn't like what the Bulls did adding Rondo, Wade and Butler with none of them being known of their shooting and spacing capabilities. And all of them being ball dominant players.

The reality is that cap space isn't going to mean anything to us for the next couple of years. Just like it hasn't meant anything for us over the past 2. We can have 100 mil in cap space. Nobody of note is coming here through FA. Even with the salaries given out we will have 23 mil in cap space this off season. Which again will mean nothing other then to maybe eat a contract for a pick or 2.

EnySpree wrote:

franco12 wrote:Here is my problem with Phil. I think it's safe to say he expected the Knicks to compete this year. He wasn't merely wrong, he was wildly wrong.

We need a GM who can better judge what we have, and what we need.

We are probably definitely looking at the lottery the next 2 years at a min. We need a GM who understands that and plans accordingly.

I know you as a coach and player can't play to lose, but GM is a different game. Fourth and long deep in your end, it's ok to punt, and that is what we need our GM to see and do.

He tried and failed at winning now. He did not fail at stockpiling youth. He's got to finish off his contract and then we can evaluate what to do next. We expect to be in the lotto this off season and ther next. That coinsides with that plan... so we all just need to chill and enjoy this. It's never been done before. Id hate to miss this journey crying

Yeah, at the very least he gave us flexibility. Rose sucks, but he is only here for a year. Not really a big deal in the long-term. The team still needs to sell tickets and Rose did create buzz early on. I think it freed up Phil to start planning long-term w/o James breathing down his neck. I think it also frees us up in terms of draft strategy. We can truly look at the best player available, instead of reaching based on position.