callmened wrote:lets not go crazy though. hes a smart vet who plays HORRIBLE DEFENSE

crzymdups wrote:David Lee was a tremendous Knicks player who was completely underrated here. Dude put up 20 and 10 several years for us and we traded him away for pennies. The teams that have signed him since then are the Warriors, Celtics, and Spurs.

At the time I liked Donnie Walsh and thought I knew what he has doing... but you look around and you see David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Zach Randolph are all still productive players in the league 7-9 years after we traded them and we didn't get a single thing worth keeping for any of them.

Many times I've thought the Knicks should've kept that first '08-'09 MDA team that started 6-3 together to see where it ended up. Anyway.

Yes, the Spurs are a model of smart management, but it's also not even that complicated. A lot of us were saying to pick up David Lee last summer because we needed a 4, he could pass and would probably do well in the Triangle. A lot of us also wanted Pau Gasol for the same reason. The Spurs have built a reputation as well, which attracts players and makes them feel like they are making a good choice. The Knicks really lack that last part right now.

That was not a MDA built team, and thus why go out and hire MDA if you don't want to run.
That was basically Isiah's team and the idea at that time was to clear room for Lebron.
What I never understood was why Lebron choose the Greenwich, CT boys and girls club so very close to the knicks facility to make his "Decision"......
Back to regret and hindsight wishful thinking..........DLee was moved on to make room for Amare. Nalod like the other 99% of the world hated that move.
But, as silly as it sounds, Lebron and melo teaming up was not a crazy thought at the time. Lebron was cryptic with his yankee love some things pointed to Knicks at least being under consideration or we were the smoke screen. Obviously we all know what happened, but you have to put you self back in the moment.
Also, ZBO was awful here, Crawford in theory should have succeeded under MDA, and DLee was a double double machine.

Yes, Spurs can take on experienced Vets at the end of their career runs who can play a limited role and do so with enthusiasm for the greater good of winning. Dlee was great with Warriors as well.
I enjoyed his tenure with the knicks and regret he too fell victim to yet another starphuch.

Is his defense really awful now? Back as a knick we needed him to not foul out and stay out of foul trouble.

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:David Lee was a tremendous Knicks player who was completely underrated here. Dude put up 20 and 10 several years for us and we traded him away for pennies. The teams that have signed him since then are the Warriors, Celtics, and Spurs.

At the time I liked Donnie Walsh and thought I knew what he has doing... but you look around and you see David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Zach Randolph are all still productive players in the league 7-9 years after we traded them and we didn't get a single thing worth keeping for any of them.

Many times I've thought the Knicks should've kept that first '08-'09 MDA team that started 6-3 together to see where it ended up. Anyway.

Yes, the Spurs are a model of smart management, but it's also not even that complicated. A lot of us were saying to pick up David Lee last summer because we needed a 4, he could pass and would probably do well in the Triangle. A lot of us also wanted Pau Gasol for the same reason. The Spurs have built a reputation as well, which attracts players and makes them feel like they are making a good choice. The Knicks really lack that last part right now.

That was not a MDA built team, and thus why go out and hire MDA if you don't want to run.
That was basically Isiah's team and the idea at that time was to clear room for Lebron.
What I never understood was why Lebron choose the Greenwich, CT boys and girls club so very close to the knicks facility to make his "Decision"......
Back to regret and hindsight wishful thinking..........DLee was moved on to make room for Amare. Nalod like the other 99% of the world hated that move.
But, as silly as it sounds, Lebron and melo teaming up was not a crazy thought at the time. Lebron was cryptic with his yankee love some things pointed to Knicks at least being under consideration or we were the smoke screen. Obviously we all know what happened, but you have to put you self back in the moment.
Also, ZBO was awful here, Crawford in theory should have succeeded under MDA, and DLee was a double double machine.

Yes, Spurs can take on experienced Vets at the end of their career runs who can play a limited role and do so with enthusiasm for the greater good of winning. Dlee was great with Warriors as well.
I enjoyed his tenure with the knicks and regret he too fell victim to yet another starphuch.

Is his defense really awful now? Back as a knick we needed him to not foul out and stay out of foul trouble.

Not a team that MDA built... but they gave up on it in early November to improve the draft pick, after an interesting start. In hindsight I would've at least tried to see where that team went... or completely blown it up. We kinda half tanked that season, but didn't lose enough.

draft that year was:

2008 draft
1) DRose
2) Beasley
3) Mayo
4) Westbrook (who I coveted and I think Briggs did, too)
5) Love
6) Gallinari (solid piece... but worth giving up on ZBO and Crawford for no return?)

The following year, we also didn't tank enough:

2009 draft
1) Blake Griffin
2) Hasheem Thabeet
3) James Harden
4) Tyreke Evans
5) Ricky Rubio
6) J Flynn
7) Steph Curry (everyone associated with the Knicks coveted this kid)
8) Jordan Hill (sigh)
9) DeMarr DeRozan

I know the Lebron rumblings were real at that point. The bottom line is he got scared off by Donnie Walsh in a wheel chair and James Dolan babbling like an idiot and MDA not having a plan for defense. Riley threw his rings on the table and it was as good as over.

Hindsight is 20/20, but we made the DLee trade after we knew where Bron was going, and the Knicks panic signed Amar'e to a 5-year deal so it looked like two years of half-tanking wasn't wasted for nothing.

Walsh also trade for Cuttino Mobley and Kelenna Azubuike in the Crawford and DLee deals... two guys who never even played a game for the Knicks. Also, can't forget the enigma of Anthony Randolph.

Anyway. We are where we are. I just hope we tank more effectively this year and get a top 5 pick. We want to be in that top five, not sitting at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9.

Post all star break Willy is averaging 10.5ppg, 9rebs, 23 minutes. You know if he keeps that up he's a legit ROY. Weak rookie class aside it would say alot about our drafting to have our 22 year old rookie win that as a 2nd rounder.

This year is a pivotal draft. Missing first rounders has obviously hurt a rebuilding effort. That is not an excuse, just a reality. However with a little luck we could be very close to looking back at this stretch of poor play and failed moves by Phil as the period of time that also allowed us to stink long enough to build up a young talent base worth building around.

Thats is why I am not that worried about Phil here. He has not been good, but he has been dedicated to developing and drafting and with a little luck in May like a #2 pick and a PG named Ball we could have done what nobody said we could do.. stink long enough to draft a core base of talent.

Phil's moves have sucked. He's been portrayed as a real dummy. He's also drafted well and keeps looking at young guys. So long as that happens I can continue to wait and see.

Steph Curry's first 3 years in GS were a mess and worse than this team. Then they drafted Klay and sorted some things out and were pretty good. Nothing Phil has done has given warning to an Isiah type path.

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:David Lee was a tremendous Knicks player who was completely underrated here. Dude put up 20 and 10 several years for us and we traded him away for pennies. The teams that have signed him since then are the Warriors, Celtics, and Spurs.

At the time I liked Donnie Walsh and thought I knew what he has doing... but you look around and you see David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Zach Randolph are all still productive players in the league 7-9 years after we traded them and we didn't get a single thing worth keeping for any of them.

Many times I've thought the Knicks should've kept that first '08-'09 MDA team that started 6-3 together to see where it ended up. Anyway.

Yes, the Spurs are a model of smart management, but it's also not even that complicated. A lot of us were saying to pick up David Lee last summer because we needed a 4, he could pass and would probably do well in the Triangle. A lot of us also wanted Pau Gasol for the same reason. The Spurs have built a reputation as well, which attracts players and makes them feel like they are making a good choice. The Knicks really lack that last part right now.

That was not a MDA built team, and thus why go out and hire MDA if you don't want to run.
That was basically Isiah's team and the idea at that time was to clear room for Lebron.
What I never understood was why Lebron choose the Greenwich, CT boys and girls club so very close to the knicks facility to make his "Decision"......
Back to regret and hindsight wishful thinking..........DLee was moved on to make room for Amare. Nalod like the other 99% of the world hated that move.
But, as silly as it sounds, Lebron and melo teaming up was not a crazy thought at the time. Lebron was cryptic with his yankee love some things pointed to Knicks at least being under consideration or we were the smoke screen. Obviously we all know what happened, but you have to put you self back in the moment.
Also, ZBO was awful here, Crawford in theory should have succeeded under MDA, and DLee was a double double machine.

Yes, Spurs can take on experienced Vets at the end of their career runs who can play a limited role and do so with enthusiasm for the greater good of winning. Dlee was great with Warriors as well.
I enjoyed his tenure with the knicks and regret he too fell victim to yet another starphuch.

Is his defense really awful now? Back as a knick we needed him to not foul out and stay out of foul trouble.

Not a team that MDA built... but they gave up on it in early November to improve the draft pick, after an interesting start. In hindsight I would've at least tried to see where that team went... or completely blown it up. We kinda half tanked that season, but didn't lose enough.

draft that year was:

2008 draft
1) DRose
2) Beasley
3) Mayo
4) Westbrook (who I coveted and I think Briggs did, too)
5) Love
6) Gallinari (solid piece... but worth giving up on ZBO and Crawford for no return?)

The following year, we also didn't tank enough:

2009 draft
1) Blake Griffin
2) Hasheem Thabeet
3) James Harden
4) Tyreke Evans
5) Ricky Rubio
6) J Flynn
7) Steph Curry (everyone associated with the Knicks coveted this kid)
8) Jordan Hill (sigh)
9) DeMarr DeRozan

I know the Lebron rumblings were real at that point. The bottom line is he got scared off by Donnie Walsh in a wheel chair and James Dolan babbling like an idiot and MDA not having a plan for defense. Riley threw his rings on the table and it was as good as over.

Hindsight is 20/20, but we made the DLee trade after we knew where Bron was going, and the Knicks panic signed Amar'e to a 5-year deal so it looked like two years of half-tanking wasn't wasted for nothing.

Walsh also trade for Cuttino Mobley and Kelenna Azubuike in the Crawford and DLee deals... two guys who never even played a game for the Knicks. Also, can't forget the enigma of Anthony Randolph.

Anyway. We are where we are. I just hope we tank more effectively this year and get a top 5 pick. We want to be in that top five, not sitting at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9.

Agenda or not, we all wish things went differently. No body is defending. In my opinion MDA was bought in but Dolan was enamored by Lebron and made sure we had room for him. There was no Melo, there was no Amare and he as to be the first in. Dolan is the boss.

MDA took a pay day and rode it thru. What should have been? A slow transformation of building to a system.
Regarding that, I think some of you think PHil could have traded better. But the fact is what he might want in return was not available. Sure, an on paper better return might have been achievable but he wanted players that can play his way. That limits what you can get. Its easy to say "Do better" but when you narrow your talent to correlate with a system its a far more difficult thing to achieve.

And if Lebron and his immature posse laughed at Donnie in the wheel chair well then phuch him and his group. Years later they are no doubt more refined, but if they did that well I can see how Phil might not exactly be very impressed with his group all the time. Empathy is part of maturity.
Walsh tried to move up in the draft. I tried to make a trade. No secret there. I know some thought Walsh should have kept close to the vest and not shown his cards but how else do you try to trade up? Gotta make calls. If you want hindsight, think some teams would like to do that draft over again?

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:David Lee was a tremendous Knicks player who was completely underrated here. Dude put up 20 and 10 several years for us and we traded him away for pennies. The teams that have signed him since then are the Warriors, Celtics, and Spurs.

At the time I liked Donnie Walsh and thought I knew what he has doing... but you look around and you see David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Zach Randolph are all still productive players in the league 7-9 years after we traded them and we didn't get a single thing worth keeping for any of them.

Many times I've thought the Knicks should've kept that first '08-'09 MDA team that started 6-3 together to see where it ended up. Anyway.

Yes, the Spurs are a model of smart management, but it's also not even that complicated. A lot of us were saying to pick up David Lee last summer because we needed a 4, he could pass and would probably do well in the Triangle. A lot of us also wanted Pau Gasol for the same reason. The Spurs have built a reputation as well, which attracts players and makes them feel like they are making a good choice. The Knicks really lack that last part right now.

So just for measure, look up stats before posting otherwise it'll undercut your argument. DLee averaged 20 and 10 once for Knicks. And Lee, ZBo and Crawford are indeed all productive players but they were not cast in the right role as a Knicks player, all needed to be bench players or 2nd or 3rd options for a team before they really shined. It wasn't until Lee moved to the bench for GS before they got good (and they traded Lee away to before they got really good? Or did they let him go for nothing, I forget).

The Knicks need building blocks as starters first, and then you can add vets like Pau and DLee to fill out the bench.

Not sure why you feel the need to be so condescending and nasty, but it's your site, so ok.

Sorry, I should have clarified DLee had a 17ppg 12rpg season and a 21ppg 12rpg all-star season before being traded by Donnie Walsh for peanuts.

And not to uh undercut your post - but - The Warriors won their only Kerr/Curry championship with David Lee, actually. He was instrumental in them coming back to win Game 4 of the 2015 Finals when the Cavs were up 2-1 in the series. Lee lost his starting job in the beginning of the year to Draymond Green due to injury, and the team did so well while he was out for 30 games, Kerr asked him if he would continue to come off the bench so Draymond could start and he did.

I'm highly aware the Knicks need building blocks as starters first. I basically said that in my post about the Spurs and in almost every other post I make on this board. Not sure where all the angst is coming from.

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:David Lee was a tremendous Knicks player who was completely underrated here. Dude put up 20 and 10 several years for us and we traded him away for pennies. The teams that have signed him since then are the Warriors, Celtics, and Spurs.

At the time I liked Donnie Walsh and thought I knew what he has doing... but you look around and you see David Lee, Jamal Crawford, and Zach Randolph are all still productive players in the league 7-9 years after we traded them and we didn't get a single thing worth keeping for any of them.

Many times I've thought the Knicks should've kept that first '08-'09 MDA team that started 6-3 together to see where it ended up. Anyway.

Yes, the Spurs are a model of smart management, but it's also not even that complicated. A lot of us were saying to pick up David Lee last summer because we needed a 4, he could pass and would probably do well in the Triangle. A lot of us also wanted Pau Gasol for the same reason. The Spurs have built a reputation as well, which attracts players and makes them feel like they are making a good choice. The Knicks really lack that last part right now.

So just for measure, look up stats before posting otherwise it'll undercut your argument. DLee averaged 20 and 10 once for Knicks. And Lee, ZBo and Crawford are indeed all productive players but they were not cast in the right role as a Knicks player, all needed to be bench players or 2nd or 3rd options for a team before they really shined. It wasn't until Lee moved to the bench for GS before they got good (and they traded Lee away to before they got really good? Or did they let him go for nothing, I forget).

The Knicks need building blocks as starters first, and then you can add vets like Pau and DLee to fill out the bench.

Not sure why you feel the need to be so condescending and nasty, but it's your site, so ok.

Sorry, I should have clarified DLee had a 17ppg 12rpg season and a 21ppg 12rpg all-star season before being traded by Donnie Walsh for peanuts.

And not to uh undercut your post - but - The Warriors won their only Kerr/Curry championship with David Lee, actually. He was instrumental in them coming back to win Game 4 of the 2015 Finals when the Cavs were up 2-1 in the series. Lee lost his starting job in the beginning of the year to Draymond Green due to injury, and the team did so well while he was out for 30 games, Kerr asked him if he would continue to come off the bench so Draymond could start and he did.

I'm highly aware the Knicks need building blocks as starters first. I basically said that in my post about the Spurs and in almost every other post I make on this board. Not sure where all the angst is coming from.

I thought I was being very polite. How else do you tell someone exactly what I wrote?

I guess it was a polite way of putting an impolite post. Have an excellent day.