yellowboy90 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Two good play calls by our coach.

holfresh wrote:Nice play call by Coach..

nixluva wrote:Another well executed play call by Hornacek

hahaha When Melo makes a shot or a good pass, it's a nice call by Hornacek. When he misses, he's going Iso or breaking the offense.

Anyway, good tank game. There's a lot more wrong with this team than Melo.

very true. Its always bad coach or bad KP

Hey, I love KP. But I think everyone would agree he's got a lot to improve. Bad fouls, bad shot selection, not setting great picks, etc. He's still an amazing young talent and I have all the hopes for him in the world. He's just got stuff to work on. So does Melo. So does the whole team - that's why we're 22-31 or whatever it is now.

The problem is KP needs Melo to get out of the way and Melo the same for the team to move forward. If they want to win around Melo they have to move KP and get talent that allows Melo to play 4 full time.

Melo's best position is 4, and KP's best position for now is 4, maybe when he is stronger a few years from now he can play 5 full time.

So long as you keep Melo at 3, KP at 4, and a big at 5, you suck defensively because you are to slow. Maybe if you got two great defender that can stop the ball at 1 and 2. I don't think that's easy.

This team won't ever win anything with Melo at 3 and KP at 4. And if you have to choose, you go withg KP. KP is 21 and has a great contract and you don't know how good he will be. Melo you know what he is. I don't see a single good reason to keep Melo around other than he's an exciting scorer to watch play.

Anyway, factor Willy. Willy's 22. He's looking real good. We have enough talent at 5/4 with Willy, KP, O'Quinn, Kuz and Noah.
What we need is a defensive 3 like Jae Crowder. We need a real point guard who defends hard, brings leadership. We need those two things far more than we need what Melo brings.

Is Melo a problem? Not in value. In value he's a good player. But for the team to move forward they have to trade him. They'll be stuck in this rut for good any other way.

Yes, I agree with all this. I've said all year that they can't start Melo at the 3 and expect to win. I've started many threads about it. It's part of why I say I'm not thrilled with the job Hornacek is doing.

25 assists tonight is a big improvement though.

There is actually one way around this but it will not happen and that is moving one to the second unit to be the Ginobli or James Harden(okc). However I doubt Melo would go to the bench and you can't send KP to the bench without an uproar. Another problem is finding better 3s than Kuz and Lance.

I agree completely.

It would help KP.

Someone made a post earlier today that they should start:

Baker
CLee
Holiday
Melo
KOQ

If DRose keeps bringing the effort he brought tonight (8ast, 7reb, 20pts), I'd start him.

Bench unit:

Jennings
Holiday/Sasha
Kuz
KP
Willy

Dolan's still a Biiaatch!
The Dolan Family need to sell MSG/Knicks/Rangers ....
The Oakley incident shows why so many elite players dont want to be a Knick .. Sad Sad Sad

holfresh wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Answer: none

KP and Hernangomez are terrible defenders but you can't say stuff like that around here

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime. I just rather use that time to see if KP is capable to carry a team or not. If we are going to lose 50+ games a year, I rather do it developing some young talent not be on the swan swong of Melo's career and points place in league history. Him getting all those points is pretty useless to us longterm. But KP and other young players developing in those losing seasons helps us more in the long run.

I saw KP unable to cover Jordan down low or Griffin anywhere else. Melo did a great job on Griffin for the most part, I thought.

For sure Melo had the better defensive game tonight. I think it's pretty much factual that Melo at 4 is a decent to solid defender. And even better on offense. However is it smart for a team to move Melo to 4 just to get him up the scoring records? What's our end game with Melo? One or two more seasons after this, MAX. No title. It's stupid in my book to sacrifice player development for a veteran declining star. However it has been the Knicks way. I'm afraid if Melo gets Phil out of town by summer, the Knicks will deal their lottery pick sonner than later for a "name" established player. We have to value player development above all. It's the best way to get back to the playoffs consistently.

What do most sports franchises do when they have a rookie coming to same position that an experienced All Star occupies? One who is still the best at that position. One who is still the best player on the team?

JesseDark wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP cannot possibly guard or box out Jordan.

That's exactly where we loss this game.

Yep. They also could've fouled Deandre a few times when he got rebounds late in the game but didn't. Holiday could've fouled him with 12 seconds left after Melo missed the three and Knicks were down three, but he didn't.

But I don't blame KP - I think Horny should've had KOQ in for the last 2min for defense on Jordan. KP shouldn't be expected to guard a guy who has 60lbs on him.

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Answer: none

KP and Hernangomez are terrible defenders but you can't say stuff like that around here

WOW! Terrible? Just so we're clear KP's Defensive Rating is 109 and Willy's is 108. Now Melo is 112 and Rose is 115. Lee is 114. I expect that we haven't seen the best from KP and Willy defensively. They are on the way up. So let's relax on the bashing of these kids.

its perspective. They are wonderful prospects, that doesnt make them elite NBA players. What does every young player struggle with first? Defending NBA pros. To say they are not good defenders is accurate. To knock them for it is piss and vinegar which also has some context "around here."

Yep. Just not the same piss and vinegar when it's Phil, Noah, any other player on this team and specially KP. Let's just keep it on Melo. Because that doesn't get old.

He is currently 21.

Patrick Ewing was already 23 before he played his 1st game as a Knick his rookie season. He turned 23 in Aug of 85.

KP will turn 23 in Aug of 2018. Going into the 2018/19 season KP will have just turned 23 and already have 3 full years of NBA experience under his belt.

He will be a GREAT player -- just needs some time and hopefully the loser fans who can't understand that don't get to him before he puts it all together.

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Answer: none

KP and Hernangomez are terrible defenders but you can't say stuff like that around here

WOW! Terrible? Just so we're clear KP's Defensive Rating is 109 and Willy's is 108. Now Melo is 112 and Rose is 115. Lee is 114. I expect that we haven't seen the best from KP and Willy defensively. They are on the way up. So let's relax on the bashing of these kids.

its perspective. They are wonderful prospects, that doesnt make them elite NBA players. What does every young player struggle with first? Defending NBA pros. To say they are not good defenders is accurate. To knock them for it is piss and vinegar which also has some context "around here."

Yep. Just not the same piss and vinegar when it's Phil, Noah, any other player on this team and specially KP. Let's just keep it on Melo. Because that doesn't get old.

I have no idea what your trying to say here

Just ignore the Melo Defenders! Anytime we criticize Melo who is 32 F'n yrs old and should be far beyond the point of giving him slack for needing to grow, these guys get all bent out of shape. They actually believe we should be grading KP, Willy and Melo on the same scale. guys that are 21 and 22. Willy is a rookie and KP is still not physically filled out yet. Not everyone develops at the same speed. KP is obviously not a guy that filled out early.

In any event KP and Willy surely deserve some level of slack as they are still developing players. I'm not going to give the same excuse to Melo or Rose. Why should we??? My point still stands KP and Willy are better defenders statistically than Melo or Rose. Are they where we want them to be? Of course not! I think it would help if the rest of the team around them wasn't so bad defensively.

I can deal with watching the growth process.

meloshouldgo wrote:This whole Melo thing is getting old. It just detracts from the team and from the growth opportunities for the kids. We are still playing iso heavy offense which diminishes the value of what KP/Willy need to be learning and doing. And we have this one ridiculously self obsessed jerk holding our team and our future hostage using his no-trade clause.

All he does is score and we are 9-15 when he puts up 25 points or more, his scoring is HURTING us because of his BALLSTOPPING. Heck we are 14-23 when he is shooting 40% or better from the field (FG%). And those are based on the strongest aspect of his game. His cumulative +/- for the season is -152, is there anything that's even remotely positive about any of this? And then there is his defense, or lack thereof.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Answer: none

KP and Hernangomez are terrible defenders but you can't say stuff like that around here

WOW! Terrible? Just so we're clear KP's Defensive Rating is 109 and Willy's is 108. Now Melo is 112 and Rose is 115. Lee is 114. I expect that we haven't seen the best from KP and Willy defensively. They are on the way up. So let's relax on the bashing of these kids.

its perspective. They are wonderful prospects, that doesnt make them elite NBA players. What does every young player struggle with first? Defending NBA pros. To say they are not good defenders is accurate. To knock them for it is piss and vinegar which also has some context "around here."

Yep. Just not the same piss and vinegar when it's Phil, Noah, any other player on this team and specially KP. Let's just keep it on Melo. Because that doesn't get old.

I have no idea what your trying to say here

Let's try this, you think it's unfair to knock KP, Willy, Phil and Noah. As you defend them quite often. But anything said about KP's or Willy's game is "piss and vinegar"? Yet your okay with the endless threads to put all the blame on Melo. Last I checked this is a forum to talk about the Knicks. Sorry that it includes talking about all players weaknesses and things they need to improve on. Melo haters don't get it. We are not defending Melo's need to get better in many areas. It's obvious he has lots of flaws. We are just tired of the endless blame game on one player for this major **** up we call the Knicks. Which you also seem to be tired of. That and the exaggerated expectations most place on young players. Only to be dissappointed. If you want, I'll give you a list of all the hyped up players on this forum that have gone on to do squat.

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Answer: none

KP and Hernangomez are terrible defenders but you can't say stuff like that around here

WOW! Terrible? Just so we're clear KP's Defensive Rating is 109 and Willy's is 108. Now Melo is 112 and Rose is 115. Lee is 114. I expect that we haven't seen the best from KP and Willy defensively. They are on the way up. So let's relax on the bashing of these kids.

its perspective. They are wonderful prospects, that doesnt make them elite NBA players. What does every young player struggle with first? Defending NBA pros. To say they are not good defenders is accurate. To knock them for it is piss and vinegar which also has some context "around here."

Yep. Just not the same piss and vinegar when it's Phil, Noah, any other player on this team and specially KP. Let's just keep it on Melo. Because that doesn't get old.

I have no idea what your trying to say here

Let's try this, you think it's unfair to knock KP, Willy, Phil and Noah. As you defend them quite often. But anything said about KP's or Willy's game is "piss and vinegar"? Yet your okay with the endless threads to put all the blame on Melo. Last I checked this is a forum to talk about the Knicks. Sorry that it includes talking about all players weaknesses and things they need to improve on. Melo haters don't get it. We are not defending Melo's need to get better in many areas. It's obvious he has lots of flaws. We are just tired of the endless blame game on one player for this major **** up we call the Knicks. Which you also seem to be tired of. That and the exaggerated expectations most place on young players. Only to be dissappointed. If you want, I'll give you a list of all the hyped up players on this forum that have gone on to do squat.

Amen.

I love KP's potential - but his defense on Jordan cost them the game last night. Pure and simple. He's not an elite defender and is not strong enough yet to stop a guy like Jordan. Melo played a great game. KP cost them the game with some bad defense and silly fouls. I don't think he should've been on the floor with 5 fouls and two min to go. Put KOQ in there. But you're not allowed to say that or you're a Melo Apologist or something.

I like almost all the guys on this team. But I'm gonna talk about their flaws.