I don't think we will play this way on offense on a consistent basis rest of the way. This was that special game. Especially after playing that well and still losing. Guys have to be thinking about their numbers. What did Barkley say once. That in his experience when teams began to know they were going to miss the playoffs and be bad, they were all looking out for their own number.

It's become almost factual now that the playoffs are not happening. As much as I wish we would have won a game like this only because they played the right way on offense, I think once you lose these kind of games, you won't get the same teamwork moving forward.

While tanking is nice, tanking will not help Willy or KP this season. When guys know their team sucks, they start to play for their own numbers. Epscially free agents. Like Rose.

This effort against the Lakers would have beaten them easily.

nyknickzingis wrote:I liked how they played on offense. Was as good as you can expect from this group.
Defensively it's the same old stuff. Can't see what we can do defensively until KP matures, gets stronger, and we get better athletic defenders at 1/2/3. I think the coaching staff, assistants wise, needs major work. The schemes need to be changed. Need a new defensive coordinator next year for Horny,

I don't think we will play this way on offense on a consistent basis rest of the way. This was that special game. Especially after playing that well and still losing. Guys have to be thinking about their numbers. What did Barkley say once. That in his experience when teams began to know they were going to miss the playoffs and be bad, they were all looking out for their own number.

It's become almost factual now that the playoffs are not happening. As much as I wish we would have won a game like this only because they played the right way on offense, I think once you lose these kind of games, you won't get the same teamwork moving forward.

While tanking is nice, tanking will not help Willy or KP this season. When guys know their team sucks, they start to play for their own numbers. Epscially free agents. Like Rose.

This effort against the Lakers would have beaten them easily.

Win or lose I wasn't going to change my mind. Knicks need to shift focus to the draft and trades to get young talent and draft picks. I know this team just isn't going to be consistent. We need to mov on to the rebuild.

crzymdups wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Two good play calls by our coach.

holfresh wrote:Nice play call by Coach..

nixluva wrote:Another well executed play call by Hornacek

hahaha When Melo makes a shot or a good pass, it's a nice call by Hornacek. When he misses, he's going Iso or breaking the offense.

Anyway, good tank game. There's a lot more wrong with this team than Melo.

very true. Its always bad coach or bad KP

Hey, I love KP. But I think everyone would agree he's got a lot to improve. Bad fouls, bad shot selection, not setting great picks, etc. He's still an amazing young talent and I have all the hopes for him in the world. He's just got stuff to work on. So does Melo. So does the whole team - that's why we're 22-31 or whatever it is now.

Melo's best position is 4, and KP's best position for now is 4, maybe when he is stronger a few years from now he can play 5 full time.

So long as you keep Melo at 3, KP at 4, and a big at 5, you suck defensively because you are to slow. Maybe if you got two great defender that can stop the ball at 1 and 2. I don't think that's easy.

This team won't ever win anything with Melo at 3 and KP at 4. And if you have to choose, you go withg KP. KP is 21 and has a great contract and you don't know how good he will be. Melo you know what he is. I don't see a single good reason to keep Melo around other than he's an exciting scorer to watch play.

Anyway, factor Willy. Willy's 22. He's looking real good. We have enough talent at 5/4 with Willy, KP, O'Quinn, Kuz and Noah.
What we need is a defensive 3 like Jae Crowder. We need a real point guard who defends hard, brings leadership. We need those two things far more than we need what Melo brings.

Is Melo a problem? Not in value. In value he's a good player. But for the team to move forward they have to trade him. They'll be stuck in this rut for good any other way.

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Two good play calls by our coach.

holfresh wrote:Nice play call by Coach..

nixluva wrote:Another well executed play call by Hornacek

hahaha When Melo makes a shot or a good pass, it's a nice call by Hornacek. When he misses, he's going Iso or breaking the offense.

Anyway, good tank game. There's a lot more wrong with this team than Melo.

very true. Its always bad coach or bad KP

Hey, I love KP. But I think everyone would agree he's got a lot to improve. Bad fouls, bad shot selection, not setting great picks, etc. He's still an amazing young talent and I have all the hopes for him in the world. He's just got stuff to work on. So does Melo. So does the whole team - that's why we're 22-31 or whatever it is now.

The problem is KP needs Melo to get out of the way and Melo the same for the team to move forward. If they want to win around Melo they have to move KP and get talent that allows Melo to play 4 full time.

Melo's best position is 4, and KP's best position for now is 4, maybe when he is stronger a few years from now he can play 5 full time.

So long as you keep Melo at 3, KP at 4, and a big at 5, you suck defensively because you are to slow. Maybe if you got two great defender that can stop the ball at 1 and 2. I don't think that's easy.

This team won't ever win anything with Melo at 3 and KP at 4. And if you have to choose, you go withg KP. KP is 21 and has a great contract and you don't know how good he will be. Melo you know what he is. I don't see a single good reason to keep Melo around other than he's an exciting scorer to watch play.

Anyway, factor Willy. Willy's 22. He's looking real good. We have enough talent at 5/4 with Willy, KP, O'Quinn, Kuz and Noah.
What we need is a defensive 3 like Jae Crowder. We need a real point guard who defends hard, brings leadership. We need those two things far more than we need what Melo brings.

Is Melo a problem? Not in value. In value he's a good player. But for the team to move forward they have to trade him. They'll be stuck in this rut for good any other way.

Yes, I agree with all this. I've said all year that they can't start Melo at the 3 and expect to win. I've started many threads about it. It's part of why I say I'm not thrilled with the job Hornacek is doing.

25 assists tonight is a big improvement though.

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime.

What position can KP defend?

Where I think KP gets hurt most is he uses his hand for defense instead of feet. He has pretty quick feet. But has a bad habit of reaching and using his hands/arms to challenge shots instead of moving his feet into the best position first. They have to hire some defensive assistant coach to work with the rooks and sophmores on this team. Willy is another guy who can improve considerably on defensive IQ. Kuz can be lost as well. I really wish we had some better defensive coaching. None of the names on Horny's staff have a good resume for defensive coaching.

nyknickzingis wrote:KP's still learning defense. I think he has shown he can defend the 4 and 5, but also shown he struggles at both spots. It's pretty normal. He is facing elite talent almost every night at those spots. Almost every team has either a really good 4 or really 5 (Or in the Clippers case both).

Where I think KP gets hurt most is he uses his hand for defense instead of feet. He has pretty quick feet. But has a bad habit of reaching and using his hands/arms to challenge shots instead of moving his feet into the best position first. They have to hire some defensive assistant coach to work with the rooks and sophmores on this team. Willy is another guy who can improve considerably on defensive IQ. Kuz can be lost as well. I really wish we had some better defensive coaching. None of the names on Horny's staff have a good resume for defensive coaching.

Rambis is the defensive coordinator. I think he is terrible and would like to see him replaced, but he'll be there as long as Phil is.

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Two good play calls by our coach.

holfresh wrote:Nice play call by Coach..

nixluva wrote:Another well executed play call by Hornacek

hahaha When Melo makes a shot or a good pass, it's a nice call by Hornacek. When he misses, he's going Iso or breaking the offense.

Anyway, good tank game. There's a lot more wrong with this team than Melo.

very true. Its always bad coach or bad KP

Hey, I love KP. But I think everyone would agree he's got a lot to improve. Bad fouls, bad shot selection, not setting great picks, etc. He's still an amazing young talent and I have all the hopes for him in the world. He's just got stuff to work on. So does Melo. So does the whole team - that's why we're 22-31 or whatever it is now.

The problem is KP needs Melo to get out of the way and Melo the same for the team to move forward. If they want to win around Melo they have to move KP and get talent that allows Melo to play 4 full time.

Melo's best position is 4, and KP's best position for now is 4, maybe when he is stronger a few years from now he can play 5 full time.

So long as you keep Melo at 3, KP at 4, and a big at 5, you suck defensively because you are to slow. Maybe if you got two great defender that can stop the ball at 1 and 2. I don't think that's easy.

This team won't ever win anything with Melo at 3 and KP at 4. And if you have to choose, you go withg KP. KP is 21 and has a great contract and you don't know how good he will be. Melo you know what he is. I don't see a single good reason to keep Melo around other than he's an exciting scorer to watch play.

Anyway, factor Willy. Willy's 22. He's looking real good. We have enough talent at 5/4 with Willy, KP, O'Quinn, Kuz and Noah.
What we need is a defensive 3 like Jae Crowder. We need a real point guard who defends hard, brings leadership. We need those two things far more than we need what Melo brings.

Is Melo a problem? Not in value. In value he's a good player. But for the team to move forward they have to trade him. They'll be stuck in this rut for good any other way.

Yes, I agree with all this. I've said all year that they can't start Melo at the 3 and expect to win. I've started many threads about it. It's part of why I say I'm not thrilled with the job Hornacek is doing.

25 assists tonight is a big improvement though.

There is actually one way around this but it will not happen and that is moving one to the second unit to be the Ginobli or James Harden(okc). However I doubt Melo would go to the bench and you can't send KP to the bench without an uproar. Another problem is finding better 3s than Kuz and Lance.

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Where game was lost. Knicks up 103-94. We go big with KO and Willy.

Blake drives gets fouled by KO 103-96
Rose misses dribble up Jumper
Willy leaves Jordan which forces foul by holiday 103-98
Holiday misses 3pt. shot
Griffin spins and goes hard for layup 103-100
Melo jump shot 105-100
Loose ball foul/ Jordan foul shots 105-102
Lee jump shot 107-102
Steal and Missed shot by Lee. Melo alone at three point line.
Blake layup off shot by Reddick. 107-104
KO blocked by Jordan
Reddick 3pt. shot 107-107
Kp misses deep three
Jordan cuts to basket 107-109

Goodbye lead.

If Melo defends Blake the entire game, he fouls out. He was picking a lot of fouls as a 4. He has to battle inside and do a lot more post work and even switch on DAJ many times in box outs, but I definitely agree and have said for a while his best position is 4.

KP's your starting 4. Melo's best spot is 4. Pick one.

Is it smart to pick Melo at 33 years of age and with declining health over KP? Melo's not even an all star anymore. Picking Melo - not smart in my opinion.

You can't keep both because it gets you nowhere. Factor Willy is coming in real strong at 5. You need to plan a future with Willy as your 5, not KP as your 5. KP should just focus on his defensive IQ. Too many stupid fouls. Too much defense played with hands and not feet. His mistakes can be corrected, but they won't be unless he has some better coaching defensively.

I guess the medium is that well keep Melo. Keep juggling Melo at 3/4 and KP at 4/5. Willy and other C's at 5. Keep struggling with foot speed and defense. You'll be stuck at that 30 wins no playoffs situation another year. I don't even mind all that much. Pretty sure Melo will opt out in 2018 to get repaid. In which case Knicks have added two lottery picks in 2017 and 2018 in the meantime. I just rather use that time to see if KP is capable to carry a team or not. If we are going to lose 50+ games a year, I rather do it developing some young talent not be on the swan swong of Melo's career and points place in league history. Him getting all those points is pretty useless to us longterm. But KP and other young players developing in those losing seasons helps us more in the long run.

I saw KP unable to cover Jordan down low or Griffin anywhere else. Melo did a great job on Griffin for the most part, I thought.

For sure Melo had the better defensive game tonight. I think it's pretty much factual that Melo at 4 is a decent to solid defender. And even better on offense. However is it smart for a team to move Melo to 4 just to get him up the scoring records? What's our end game with Melo? One or two more seasons after this, MAX. No title. It's stupid in my book to sacrifice player development for a veteran declining star. However it has been the Knicks way. I'm afraid if Melo gets Phil out of town by summer, the Knicks will deal their lottery pick sonner than later for a "name" established player. We have to value player development above all. It's the best way to get back to the playoffs consistently.

If you are trying to get assets back in a trade the answer is yes.