Yes, good teams occasionally get blown out.

We suck, and Phil owns some of this with his insistence on the triangle.

We've got some nice pieces - but then I Liked Ken Bannister, Eddie Lee Wilkins, Rory Sparrow, Louis Orr, Darrell Walker.

We need a top 5 draft pick this year & we need Phil to not try and turnover the roster. Just let some of these guys grow together, let Hornacek coach the way he wants & if he wants to get rid of Rambis, let him.

If we can get a SF that can defend, shoot the outside shot, and a SG that does the same two things, we will likely be just as competitive we are with this team (.400 ball) only with a future because the team can grow and get better with time, vs an older team that likely gets worse each year.

What I like about when KP/Willy/BJ are in the game, the ball moves. There's energy. Cohesion. Definitely time to rebuild. Got a 2017 lottery pick. If we can get 2 starters that are 27 or younger that fit what I described above for Rose and Melo, I do it right now.

TripleThreat wrote:

franco12 wrote:We've got some nice pieces ...

The problem is the Knicks consistently engage in "lose/lose" scenarios

If Phil Jackson was a massive hit as a front office guru and made killer move after move, the guy is 70 years old. It would be short lived excellence without any real plan for succession or transition. This result would be low percentage for any first time NBA executive.

If Phil Jackson was mediocre to horrible, the Knicks would simply be wasting time until they invested in a young front office type who could give them 10-15-20 years of solid work and effort for the long term.

The answer was to invest in a young front office type from a winning franchise who had actual previous front office experience. Someone actually groomed to run an NBA franchise.

Phil Jackson presented two "lose" scenarios. This is not how a healthy franchise operates.

***

This offseason, the Knicks got Noah, Rose, Jennigns and Lee.

If this was a wild success this year, everything worked out great, all the players were healthy and operated to their relative ceiling of play, would this last beyond this year and into the next 3 years when these contracts have to be measured against the entire length of the deal, not just the first year. Would one good year, if you even got that, be worth the risk of 3 very bad ones with player in decline. A clear "lose" situation.

If this was a mediocre to failure type result, then the next three years of Noah and Lee are hell. Including burning valuable assets to get Rose, a no defense gunner with poor shot selection who can't the three ball. A clear "lose" situation.

***

Getting Derrick Rose

A) He performs off the charts. Then he is resigned to a max deal, where his injury risk and his style of play will likely prove to be a long term liability. Or you don't pay him and you burn assets to acquire him for nothing, just a one season flier.

B) He sucks and struggles and doesn't fit in, then he's allowed to walk. In which case you burned out trading Lopez and Grant for essentially nothing, not even a trip to the playoffs.

Lose/Lose

Lose/Lose

Lose/Lose

Good teams create win/win. Signing Robin Lopez is a Win/Win situation.

Average teams create win/lose, but stay out of the lose area more often than not. I take in a 4 year deal, but understand the first two years might be useful, but not the last two, but I'm ok with that since the first two is in a contention window of opportunity. The Knicks did not have a win/lose, it's not like they needed Rose and Noah to push them over the top to win a ring.

The Knicks consistently struggle because they operate on a "lose/lose" basis.

EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?

Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.

I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.

I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.

To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.

I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.

Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.

EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?

I thought most were hoping for a playoff birth. This wasn't a very unreasonable expectation in the East. One legit starting PG could've made the difference in a LOT of those close losses IMO. The point wasn't that the Knicks would then be the favorite to win the ECF's.

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:I agree with a lot of what you say. Id say we need 2 years of good drafting to pair along with KP and Willy.

at least - this isn't all on Phil - he stepped into an organization that had dug itself into a decade long hole.

I like a lot of the Euro talent phil has brought in. I like Jennings, would love to keep him at the right her price long term.

I don't understand this, nobody on the roster phil got had a contract beyond 2 yrs left.

No president that the knicks have hired (in 20+ yrs) had back to back off seasnon with 20+ mill in cap space + a top 5 draft pick.

We haven't even won 6 games in a row since phil was hired, 6 measly fckng games... I just don't know why this doesn't all fall on phil, this is his entire roster.

Walsh had already purged all the bad long term contract, and Glenn signed short term contracts with the little to no cap space and won 54 games in the process.

Yes, Phil has to accept some responsibility.

But, he took over a franchise that routinely traded first round picks.

In three years, he's had 1 first round draft pick that belonged to us.

When was the last time we owned our own future first rounders?

Story is the same with second rounders. Be fair, this isn't all on Phil.

CrushAlot wrote:

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:I agree with a lot of what you say. Id say we need 2 years of good drafting to pair along with KP and Willy.

at least - this isn't all on Phil - he stepped into an organization that had dug itself into a decade long hole.

I like a lot of the Euro talent phil has brought in. I like Jennings, would love to keep him at the right her price long term.

I don't understand this, nobody on the roster phil got had a contract beyond 2 yrs left.

No president that the knicks have hired (in 20+ yrs) had back to back off seasnon with 20+ mill in cap space + a top 5 draft pick.

We haven't even won 6 games in a row since phil was hired, 6 measly fckng games... I just don't know why this doesn't all fall on phil, this is his entire roster.

Walsh had already purged all the bad long term contract, and Glenn signed short term contracts with the little to no cap space and won 54 games in the process.

Yes, Phil has to accept some responsibility.

But, he took over a franchise that routinely traded first round picks.

In three years, he's had 1 first round draft pick that belonged to us.

When was the last time we owned our own future first rounders?

Story is the same with second rounders. Be fair, this isn't all on Phil.

No but keeping the picks may not all be on Phil either. Dolan nixed the Lowry trade because he didn't want to trade a first round pick. A lot of this is on Phil.

Listen, there are plenty of teams in this league that hve been to 3 of the last 4 lotteries and are still headed that way again. So trading away draft picks doesnt kill the franchise. The EWING era saw no lotteries and remained one of the best for 15 yrs, the spurs..one franchise player,smart trades into the draft and use your cap space wisely the rest of the way.

You mean to tell me your paying phil 60 million to not trade picks, Im sure every single one of us on this board can do that job for a 100k a yr.

With 40+ million in cap space a top draft pick, a new coach, an improve roster, and you still are showing no signs of improvement. Now your trading your star player away you chase around town and signed him to NTC 2 years later.

Here's my problem with phil

1)Doesn't say much at all, but when he does it causes a sht load of controversy
2)Refuse to let Rambis go despite demoting him and players never on the same page with his thoughts
3)Forcing a system on the coaching staff, and undermining his coaches, then going to the media with it.
4)Preaches ball movement, re-signs melo, and trades for rose, the 2 biggest ISO players in the NBA.
5)Making the NYK become the revolving door for players...

He's just not as smart as he was as a coach, and thats coool. I respect the rings, but we will never be a very good team under phil.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?

Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.

I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.

I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.

To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.

I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.

Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.

who? Who says we are one player away? I mean if I have to read a daily 'we suck' thread on the Knicks fan site maybe you can clarify us on your audience?

Anyone arguing to sign Jrue Holiday to a max deal this Summer.

fishmike wrote:

VCoug wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?

Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.

I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.

I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.

To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.

I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.

Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.

who? Who says we are one player away? I mean if I have to read a daily 'we suck' thread on the Knicks fan site maybe you can clarify us on your audience?

Anyone arguing to sign Jrue Holiday to a max deal this Summer.

one has nothing to do with the other. Signing Holiday doesnt mean "OK, this is the player that leads us to a title." Only Knick fans think (and more importantly FEEL) that and they are stupid and entitled. The only question is if that player makes sense at that price tag for this team.

franco?

I agree with VCoug. If you are signing anyone to that kind of money ($20M), and you already have unproductive veterans (compared to their money) like Noah and Lee (to a lesser extent) and Melo who kinda wants to be here, kinda doesn't - that is $75M of our $103M cap- then you are most certainly saying - yes, that is the piece we need to be markedly better.

We're on pace to win 34 games this year.

Swapping Rose out for Holiday is going to be what, a 10 game improvement? I doubt. Lets say conservatively 5 games. Now, we're sniffing the play offs. And probably missing, or getting in and getting trounced in 4 games. And our ability to improve after that is contingent on our rookies getting better and our old guys like Noah, Melo and Lee fighting off father time in a sport dominated by athletes.

We need a plan, that isn't myopically focused on moves that can be made now for immediate satisfaction.

The plan has to be 2-3 years out. Accumulate draft picks, get some top 5/10 talent in the draft, find some gems in the 2nd round, let the guys that are here stay together for 2-3 years- and if Phil wants them to play with triangles, great - maybe in year 3 they'll have an understanding of the system. Melo can leave or assume a Paul Pierce kinda role. Maybe Noah can turn into Herb Williams on the bench and mentor Porzingas.