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A Rose by any other name.......
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Nalod
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2/1/2017  9:01 AM

At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?
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simrud
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2/1/2017  10:10 AM
Rose is terrible - he sinks the defense from the get go with his fear of contact on screens. Can't win with him.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
martin
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2/1/2017  10:19 AM
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

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Nalod
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2/1/2017  10:34 AM
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!
NYKBocker
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2/1/2017  10:43 AM
He is not a PG. I think that he is still very useful but not as the PG. He can still lead the team but you would need a PG that can manage the team.
arkrud
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2/1/2017  11:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2017  11:12 AM
To compete at high level NBA team needs complete players.
This applies to stars and to role players.
Melo and Rose are NBA stars but they are not complete players.
They are good enough to entertain but not to contend.
Making them a role players under premise that incomplete star player can be complete role player is silly.
Bad luxury car cannot be considered a good consumer car. Things should be used the way they designed to be used.
Knicks are still a collection mismatched expensive parts.
Team is not even entertaining anymore.
So what the point to keep the boring show running.
Time to demolish and rebuild.
I think we have a good start with a couple of young talents and veteran role players.
Just stay the course.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
martin
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2/1/2017  11:19 AM
Nalod wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!

Anyone see Rose in his MVP year when he was with Chicago, or anytime before he was hurt? Was he able to pass the ball? See open teammates? Did he try to play defense?

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Cartman718
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2/1/2017  11:27 AM
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!

Anyone see Rose in his MVP year when he was with Chicago, or anytime before he was hurt? Was he able to pass the ball? See open teammates? Did he try to play defense?

after a lot of searching...scroll to 1 min mark

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gif-derrick-rose-jimmy-butler-alley-oop/

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Nalod
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2/1/2017  11:39 AM
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!

Anyone see Rose in his MVP year when he was with Chicago, or anytime before he was hurt? Was he able to pass the ball? See open teammates? Did he try to play defense?

after a lot of searching...scroll to 1 min mark

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gif-derrick-rose-jimmy-butler-alley-oop/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01.html
Cartman718
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2/1/2017  12:11 PM
Nalod wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!

Anyone see Rose in his MVP year when he was with Chicago, or anytime before he was hurt? Was he able to pass the ball? See open teammates? Did he try to play defense?

after a lot of searching...scroll to 1 min mark

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gif-derrick-rose-jimmy-butler-alley-oop/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01.html

huh?

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Nalod
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2/1/2017  12:58 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

before the shooting part he needs to learn, dude needs to figure out how to see an open man and pass the ball.

Honest question: Has Rose thrown an alley-oop pass this year? I don't remember 1

I agree. I did not follow him that much in Chicago and like melo in Denver, I can't say I was a big fan.
The dude did score an MVP which is no easy feat.
Perhaps I am an optimist who wants to believe there is more at times that what we can see. This game, to be a successful coach or GM/President is take undervalued assets and either by chemistry or growth expand their potential. Melo was a talent, but his only failure was he did not evolve his game enough to "be that guy that makes others around better"........That's no easy feat.
Rose has unique talents and I don't know what Phil sees in him other than the obvious.
My take is often in defense of Phil because even if he is not overwhelmingly a great President after a few years on the job, the man can evaluate talent and coach. Its not a stretch to have faith in his acumen.

Im not here to put Phil on the hot seat or apply a letter grade, the record speaks for itself as does some of our core yoots which is a new aspect was have not seen for many years in NY, but the issue of Rose is a huge one.

1. He sucks, no worth the money.
2. we can draft a PG before we have to decide to resign him.
3. We sign him to a reasonable contract and he gives himself to Coach Horney and the triangle. reads phils mind expanding books and becomes a celibate monk with elevating thoughts.......
4. Trade him now for what ever we can get, blow it up and rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!!!

Anyone see Rose in his MVP year when he was with Chicago, or anytime before he was hurt? Was he able to pass the ball? See open teammates? Did he try to play defense?

after a lot of searching...scroll to 1 min mark

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gif-derrick-rose-jimmy-butler-alley-oop/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01.html

huh?

Just looking at his stat's over the years. Interesting. His assists have really fallen over the years. Weird.
Chandler
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2/1/2017  1:04 PM
My biggest concern is his defense. He has been talking a better game than he has been playing. He still wants to do the Thibs defense of funneling players to the base line, or into Noah, or whatever else, but has turned that into Clyde's Matador defense instead.

Totally agree on the passing issue too but I would accept that as long as the other guard or even a forward takes over more playmaking opportunities: ROse still has elite talent to get to the room (he does need to draw more contact though)

this will be a very difficult decision for the team. If I were in charge and needed to decide today, I'd let him leave.

(5)(7)
knicks1248
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2/1/2017  1:24 PM
If he passed more his defensive short comings wouldn't be so obvious because we would average more points as a team
ES
smackeddog
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2/1/2017  1:57 PM
Ship him to the sixers, he'd be a good fit for them. I soured on him when he missed a game to sulk then had the cheek to tell Hornacek what he had to do as coach.
Cartman718
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2/1/2017  2:18 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2017  2:19 PM
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Nalod
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2/1/2017  3:10 PM
LOL!!!!!

What, no sex trial images???
SwishAndDish13
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2/1/2017  5:31 PM
Just let him expire! There's no value. Taking back horrible contracts would be foolish!
HofstraBBall
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2/1/2017  7:07 PM
Nalod wrote:
At some point Knicks have to value Rose. At some point Rose will have to place a value on his head. The market might have a bit to do with that too.

With Melo, Im not sure Rose has fully shown what he can do. He has demonstrated he is healthy and explosive physically. The rust has come off and the kid can play.

At the same time, his style of game has to evolve as few guys into their 30's can sustain that level of athletic explosiveness. Baron Davis made a good run of it. CP3 can shoot which helps his game enormously and gives him space. Rose has to get better at shooting.

But he has to commit to something else as well, being the triangle leader. If he returns, its a marriage, not a trade like it is this year. Rose will be held to answer this commitment. If he is not a fan of it (has not shown he is) then it won't work.

He is a free agent to be and few trades could be had as teams might not want to pay for a short term rental.
What is seen vs what is not seen?

Agree. Melo is responsible for Rose wearing blinders. Also for running into crowds of defenders and turning the ball over. Rose is the fastest out of control low IQ PG guard in the league. Chicago was right. Time to move on. Oh and damn Melo for teaching him to jump every time he passes the ball. Smh

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
NardDogNation
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2/1/2017  8:03 PM
simrud wrote:Rose is terrible - he sinks the defense from the get go with his fear of contact on screens. Can't win with him.

He'd be a hell of a 6th man on a contender. Any concern about running the team would be tempered by the fact that teams tend to like score-first types from their guard positions off the bench, which would allow Rose to be at his best. Come to think of it, I think he'd have "6th man of the year" potential if you could humble himself to accept the role and stay healthy.
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