Knixkik wrote:

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Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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holfresh wrote:

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Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:All these theories tying Rose to KP's issues comes up empty when the same thing happens when Rose is on the bench and KP plays with the second unit..

Maybe true, but bottom line is KP will significantly improve on offense next year once the knicks replace rose with a lower-volume, better passing pg. KP doesn't have a lot of opportunity in an offense with a pg that is a high-volume, low-efficiency scoring player.

Melo using the same PGs?..Everyone complains that KP is picking up all of Melo's bad habits..How come he isn't picking up the habit of scoring without a pass first pg?

He's scoring 19 points a game. What were you expecting?

Yeah i don't get all of the concerns. He averaged 14 ppg as a rookie. I figured he would average 17-18 ppg this year. Rose would obviously cut into his offense a little bit. But he has exceeded expectations for a 2nd year player, averaging 19 ppg. Now he has slumped a little coming back from injury. I just don't understand the expectations of Knick fans.

You are the one proposing insane trades in every thread to help KP and you don't get the concern???

I think you have my confused with someone else. I would like to get a PG like Rubio, but i am not proposing a bunch of trades. But what did you expect from KP this year? Did you think he was going to put up 22 and 10? Shoot 50% from the field?

That is the definition of an insane trade...And with regards to KP, I did not start this thread..I don't think he needs a PG to play better, you do...You are blaming his production on Rose, are you not???

Not at all. Rose is not the problem, he just isn't the solution. I believe anytime you have a young player you want to build around, you should be finding players that fit well with that player. I think Rose is a square peg in a round hole. But Porzingis needs to be doing other things to get involved, like he was earlier in the year. We are only talking about his last 10 or so games. And i don't see how trying to grab Rubio off the trading block is insane at all. It's logical and realistic.

That surely depends on what outcome you desire...I don't think you build a team with all players geared to make one player play efficiently..You are setting yourself up for failure..GS doesn't do that..Cleve doesn't do that...SAS doesn't do that...They are comfortable having many explosive players in their own rite...Building around one player is a fallacy and a recipe for failure...

I believe its the opposite. You want to get the most out of your best player, when that player is possibly a generational talent. The numbers show so far in KP's situation, that this may be the case. This team changes offenses like ringtones. Chemistry is important, continuity is important. If the Knicks had surrounded Ewing with more players that fit his style, we would have stood a better chance of winning it all. Charles Smith?. SAS surrounded Robinson and Duncan with players who complemented their style of play, thats what we need to do with KP. Of course KP has to grow as a player for this to work.

Rose can get to the rim, but other than that he is just another PG diva who has made it clear that getting paid is his first priority. Thats not hyperbole. Around the time some of his Bulls teammates where making trips to the hospital, he was talking about getting paid, even though he had missed more games than any other player during that time period in the league. This is not who you want to put next to someome with Porzingis's potential for the next 4-5 years. The player you hand the rock to.

Would rather get someone like Teague who will look to give them a one two punch vs. Rose to Rose.

I completely, completely disagree...Sure fit is important..But Ewing's problem is that he didn't have another weapon, option next to him..MJ had Pippen..The team was specifically built around Ewing..How could you not see that..Oakley was perfect for Ewing, Starks and a PG who can get the ball to Ewing in the post...It was all about Ewing which was the problem ..SAS was the perfect example where two players who don't necessarily compliment each other but were two offensive weapons..How could you not recognize that..The coach was smart enough to make them work together...The Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh..Golden State with Curry, Thompson and Green who compliments what the team is doing but no a specific player...

But I'll take it further..KP has demonstrated so far that he works well as a complementary player...If he was a primary type player, he would command the attention when playing with the second unit..He mostly play off the ball which is why most of you want a PG to get him the ball for mostly spot up shots...But what happens when a player plays real defense against him like they do Melo and he is the focal point..What happens when they double him like Ewing???.I think your point of view is short sighted..You are emotionally looking at what you hope will happen and not seeing what is actually happening...

My point wasn't that Ewing wasnt surrounded by any players who complimented his style of play, it was that he wasnt surrounded with enough of them during his career. Riley came close late in Ewing's career. Talent was lacking as well, but we've seen plenty of talented players fail here because they were a bad fit.

If you are suggesting to me that KP's ceiling is Robin, I would recommend that you watch some of his rookie games again, when he played a larger part in the offense.

But everyone complimented Ewing...Every player...Oakley was the rebounder/bruiser/defender..Starks the three point shooter to create space for Ewing.. Mark Jackson was a great passer and knew how to feed the post...Wilkins was a slasher/defender...What was Ewing lacking in terms of a complimentary player???..They even brought in Ro Blackman and Kiki to be another option which was late in their careers..My point is that we didn't have enough weapons to take the pressure off Ewing...

I agree with you that Ewing was complimented well. And the Knicks won 50+ games every season during that timeframe, went to at least the 2nd round, and were 1 Starks disaster away from winning a title. This was a successful era of Knicks basketball. Winning a title would be nice, but they gave themselves a chance each year. That is all you can ask for. If you can build a team like this around KP, that is an accomplishment. Not really sure why it's even being argued that the Knicks didn't build correctly around Ewing. If Starks didn't go 1-18, the Knicks win a title in 1994 and this conversation would be much different. You wanted to use the Ewing era as a way to convince people building a team based on fit around one player is not the right way, but you have actually done of the opposite with this example. The Knicks were 1 win away from a championship. You have convinced me even more of how important 'fit' is. We can only be so lucky to build a team around KP like the Knicks did around Ewing, because that team was an elite team every year.

I can give you team after teams who had multiple assets/weapons and wasn't pigeonholed around one player who were successful..Lakers, Celtics, SAS,Golden State, Detroit, etc..And how do you know KP is that player??..Why limit yourself???

If you can find young players as good as KP who who will actually share the rock, pick their spots, then they're complimentary players. When a PG makes a habit of looking you off and calling his own number again and again, then they're not a complimentary player. Especially when bench players get more assists in less time. You seem to be arguing that Rose can do whatever he wants because he gets to the rim.

Rose took his teams to the conference finals, so it ain't him...Unless you just want to see a team where only KP shoots...

Didnt say that he lacked talent, at one time Rose was a better player. I did say that he was a bad fit for this team. Dont want KP taking all the shots, whatever amount he needs to be effective.

You get a player like Melo, like KP, because sometimes winning and losing comes down to one player.
I believe KP has the potential to be one of the best.

KP has a chance to be a very good player..The best??..Not sure...His strength will have a lot do say about that...KP is effective as an off the ball player..A secondary player to Melo right now...That's not an insult..Pippen was a great player..But in my opinion, until I see KP score on Draymond Green while he is draped all over him, it's not until then I will be convinced he has arrived..He has to be able to score on strong defenders..All "franchise players" can do that...Right now he doesn't have the skills or the strength for that...The strength will be harder than the skills...He is great scoring on spot up wide open shots..A lot different than being the guy...

Cmon holfresh, I said "one of the best". As in one of the best of his generation. You are absolutley right that he is a secondary player to Melo right now, as he should be.

Going forward, I dont want Porzingis to be a secondary player to a PG who doesnt share the rock for the next 4-5 years, when he should be groomed to be the primary option. I have seen enough to know that KP is worth the risk.

Sorry..I took it as one of the best in today's game, we agree..I think you see flashes of these things early..Embiid comes to mind, KAT..But health I think will determine everything for him..82 games night in and out is a grind..We will see, good problem to have, no?

Towns, KP, Giannis, Davis, and Embiid seem to be in a talent class of their own. I see these 5 as having the elite talent that it takes, once the current generation of superstars is declined, but obviously it takes a lot of luck, good health, and proper development to fulfill potential.

To me, the difference is that those other players have shown flashes of being able to score on any one on one defender...KP hasn't really done that..KP has had trouble with players who has played him straight up defensively...I think strength has a lot to do with it...

You can't compare any of those players to Davis...Davis is now with the Currys and LeBrons...The others are young an up coming...The others have shown they can be the main guy...

The others have been put in the position to be the main guys. We are building differently as this point in time. KP has actually shown in flashes. He was the best scorer on the team for most of november and they were winning. He has some help, but so does Towns, who plays with Wiggins and LaVine, who both score more than 20 ppg. Davis is older and more established yes, i just lumped him in because he's still young and improving. But i disagree about KP, in his limited opportunities as a one-on-one scorer, he has shown he can be unstoppable if developed properly.

Something that stands out. All those guys, except for KP, have strong down low games. And not one floats the 3pt. line expecting people to pass them the ball for long jump shot. KP has to get stronger. Has to develop a strong post up game. Has to do more off the ball. ie, picks, cuts, curls.

Another thing that stands out to me is all the guys mentioned, as good as they may be, are on losing teams.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:All these theories tying Rose to KP's issues comes up empty when the same thing happens when Rose is on the bench and KP plays with the second unit..

Maybe true, but bottom line is KP will significantly improve on offense next year once the knicks replace rose with a lower-volume, better passing pg. KP doesn't have a lot of opportunity in an offense with a pg that is a high-volume, low-efficiency scoring player.

Melo using the same PGs?..Everyone complains that KP is picking up all of Melo's bad habits..How come he isn't picking up the habit of scoring without a pass first pg?

He's scoring 19 points a game. What were you expecting?

Yeah i don't get all of the concerns. He averaged 14 ppg as a rookie. I figured he would average 17-18 ppg this year. Rose would obviously cut into his offense a little bit. But he has exceeded expectations for a 2nd year player, averaging 19 ppg. Now he has slumped a little coming back from injury. I just don't understand the expectations of Knick fans.

You are the one proposing insane trades in every thread to help KP and you don't get the concern???

I think you have my confused with someone else. I would like to get a PG like Rubio, but i am not proposing a bunch of trades. But what did you expect from KP this year? Did you think he was going to put up 22 and 10? Shoot 50% from the field?

That is the definition of an insane trade...And with regards to KP, I did not start this thread..I don't think he needs a PG to play better, you do...You are blaming his production on Rose, are you not???

Not at all. Rose is not the problem, he just isn't the solution. I believe anytime you have a young player you want to build around, you should be finding players that fit well with that player. I think Rose is a square peg in a round hole. But Porzingis needs to be doing other things to get involved, like he was earlier in the year. We are only talking about his last 10 or so games. And i don't see how trying to grab Rubio off the trading block is insane at all. It's logical and realistic.

That surely depends on what outcome you desire...I don't think you build a team with all players geared to make one player play efficiently..You are setting yourself up for failure..GS doesn't do that..Cleve doesn't do that...SAS doesn't do that...They are comfortable having many explosive players in their own rite...Building around one player is a fallacy and a recipe for failure...

I believe its the opposite. You want to get the most out of your best player, when that player is possibly a generational talent. The numbers show so far in KP's situation, that this may be the case. This team changes offenses like ringtones. Chemistry is important, continuity is important. If the Knicks had surrounded Ewing with more players that fit his style, we would have stood a better chance of winning it all. Charles Smith?. SAS surrounded Robinson and Duncan with players who complemented their style of play, thats what we need to do with KP. Of course KP has to grow as a player for this to work.

Rose can get to the rim, but other than that he is just another PG diva who has made it clear that getting paid is his first priority. Thats not hyperbole. Around the time some of his Bulls teammates where making trips to the hospital, he was talking about getting paid, even though he had missed more games than any other player during that time period in the league. This is not who you want to put next to someome with Porzingis's potential for the next 4-5 years. The player you hand the rock to.

Would rather get someone like Teague who will look to give them a one two punch vs. Rose to Rose.

I completely, completely disagree...Sure fit is important..But Ewing's problem is that he didn't have another weapon, option next to him..MJ had Pippen..The team was specifically built around Ewing..How could you not see that..Oakley was perfect for Ewing, Starks and a PG who can get the ball to Ewing in the post...It was all about Ewing which was the problem ..SAS was the perfect example where two players who don't necessarily compliment each other but were two offensive weapons..How could you not recognize that..The coach was smart enough to make them work together...The Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh..Golden State with Curry, Thompson and Green who compliments what the team is doing but no a specific player...

But I'll take it further..KP has demonstrated so far that he works well as a complementary player...If he was a primary type player, he would command the attention when playing with the second unit..He mostly play off the ball which is why most of you want a PG to get him the ball for mostly spot up shots...But what happens when a player plays real defense against him like they do Melo and he is the focal point..What happens when they double him like Ewing???.I think your point of view is short sighted..You are emotionally looking at what you hope will happen and not seeing what is actually happening...

My point wasn't that Ewing wasnt surrounded by any players who complimented his style of play, it was that he wasnt surrounded with enough of them during his career. Riley came close late in Ewing's career. Talent was lacking as well, but we've seen plenty of talented players fail here because they were a bad fit.

If you are suggesting to me that KP's ceiling is Robin, I would recommend that you watch some of his rookie games again, when he played a larger part in the offense.

But everyone complimented Ewing...Every player...Oakley was the rebounder/bruiser/defender..Starks the three point shooter to create space for Ewing.. Mark Jackson was a great passer and knew how to feed the post...Wilkins was a slasher/defender...What was Ewing lacking in terms of a complimentary player???..They even brought in Ro Blackman and Kiki to be another option which was late in their careers..My point is that we didn't have enough weapons to take the pressure off Ewing...

I agree with you that Ewing was complimented well. And the Knicks won 50+ games every season during that timeframe, went to at least the 2nd round, and were 1 Starks disaster away from winning a title. This was a successful era of Knicks basketball. Winning a title would be nice, but they gave themselves a chance each year. That is all you can ask for. If you can build a team like this around KP, that is an accomplishment. Not really sure why it's even being argued that the Knicks didn't build correctly around Ewing. If Starks didn't go 1-18, the Knicks win a title in 1994 and this conversation would be much different. You wanted to use the Ewing era as a way to convince people building a team based on fit around one player is not the right way, but you have actually done of the opposite with this example. The Knicks were 1 win away from a championship. You have convinced me even more of how important 'fit' is. We can only be so lucky to build a team around KP like the Knicks did around Ewing, because that team was an elite team every year.

I can give you team after teams who had multiple assets/weapons and wasn't pigeonholed around one player who were successful..Lakers, Celtics, SAS,Golden State, Detroit, etc..And how do you know KP is that player??..Why limit yourself???

If you can find young players as good as KP who who will actually share the rock, pick their spots, then they're complimentary players. When a PG makes a habit of looking you off and calling his own number again and again, then they're not a complimentary player. Especially when bench players get more assists in less time. You seem to be arguing that Rose can do whatever he wants because he gets to the rim.

Rose took his teams to the conference finals, so it ain't him...Unless you just want to see a team where only KP shoots...

Didnt say that he lacked talent, at one time Rose was a better player. I did say that he was a bad fit for this team. Dont want KP taking all the shots, whatever amount he needs to be effective.

You get a player like Melo, like KP, because sometimes winning and losing comes down to one player.
I believe KP has the potential to be one of the best.

KP has a chance to be a very good player..The best??..Not sure...His strength will have a lot do say about that...KP is effective as an off the ball player..A secondary player to Melo right now...That's not an insult..Pippen was a great player..But in my opinion, until I see KP score on Draymond Green while he is draped all over him, it's not until then I will be convinced he has arrived..He has to be able to score on strong defenders..All "franchise players" can do that...Right now he doesn't have the skills or the strength for that...The strength will be harder than the skills...He is great scoring on spot up wide open shots..A lot different than being the guy...

Cmon holfresh, I said "one of the best". As in one of the best of his generation. You are absolutley right that he is a secondary player to Melo right now, as he should be.

Going forward, I dont want Porzingis to be a secondary player to a PG who doesnt share the rock for the next 4-5 years, when he should be groomed to be the primary option. I have seen enough to know that KP is worth the risk.

Sorry..I took it as one of the best in today's game, we agree..I think you see flashes of these things early..Embiid comes to mind, KAT..But health I think will determine everything for him..82 games night in and out is a grind..We will see, good problem to have, no?

Towns, KP, Giannis, Davis, and Embiid seem to be in a talent class of their own. I see these 5 as having the elite talent that it takes, once the current generation of superstars is declined, but obviously it takes a lot of luck, good health, and proper development to fulfill potential.

To me, the difference is that those other players have shown flashes of being able to score on any one on one defender...KP hasn't really done that..KP has had trouble with players who has played him straight up defensively...I think strength has a lot to do with it...

You can't compare any of those players to Davis...Davis is now with the Currys and LeBrons...The others are young an up coming...The others have shown they can be the main guy...

The others have been put in the position to be the main guys. We are building differently as this point in time. KP has actually shown in flashes. He was the best scorer on the team for most of november and they were winning. He has some help, but so does Towns, who plays with Wiggins and LaVine, who both score more than 20 ppg. Davis is older and more established yes, i just lumped him in because he's still young and improving. But i disagree about KP, in his limited opportunities as a one-on-one scorer, he has shown he can be unstoppable if developed properly.

Something that stands out. All those guys, except for KP, have strong down low games. And not one floats the 3pt. line expecting people to pass them the ball for long jump shot. KP has to get stronger. Has to develop a strong post up game. Has to do more off the ball. ie, picks, cuts, curls.

Another thing that stands out to me is all the guys mentioned, as good as they may be, are on losing teams.

KP is the best shooting of the group, so he is more likely to spend time on the perimeter. But i agree, he needs to start developing down low. And the others are all on bad teams, you are correct. Expectations of NY are just different. We want faster results, and the minute a 21 year old stops producing at a rapid rate, the calls for benching him and trading him go flying around. Just think about how ridiculous that is...

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[qhuote="GustavBahler"]

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:All these theories tying Rose to KP's issues comes up empty when the same thing happens when Rose is on the bench and KP plays with the second unit..

Maybe true, but bottom line is KP will significantly improve on offense next year once the knicks replace rose with a lower-volume, better passing pg. KP doesn't have a lot of opportunity in an offense with a pg that is a high-volume, low-efficiency scoring player.

Melo using the same PGs?..Everyone complains that KP is picking up all of Melo's bad habits..How come he isn't picking up the habit of scoring without a pass first pg?

He's scoring 19 points a game. What were you expecting?

Yeah i don't get all of the concerns. He averaged 14 ppg as a rookie. I figured he would average 17-18 ppg this year. Rose would obviously cut into his offense a little bit. But he has exceeded expectations for a 2nd year player, averaging 19 ppg. Now he has slumped a little coming back from injury. I just don't understand the expectations of Knick fans.

You are the one proposing insane trades in every thread to help KP and you don't get the concern???

I think you have my confused with someone else. I would like to get a PG like Rubio, but i am not proposing a bunch of trades. But what did you expect from KP this year? Did you think he was going to put up 22 and 10? Shoot 50% from the field?

That is the definition of an insane trade...And with regards to KP, I did not start this thread..I don't think he needs a PG to play better, you do...You are blaming his production on Rose, are you not???

Not at all. Rose is not the problem, he just isn't the solution. I believe anytime you have a young player you want to build around, you should be finding players that fit well with that player. I think Rose is a square peg in a round hole. But Porzingis needs to be doing other things to get involved, like he was earlier in the year. We are only talking about his last 10 or so games. And i don't see how trying to grab Rubio off the trading block is insane at all. It's logical and realistic.

That surely depends on what outcome you desire...I don't think you build a team with all players geared to make one player play efficiently..You are setting yourself up for failure..GS doesn't do that..Cleve doesn't do that...SAS doesn't do that...They are comfortable having many explosive players in their own rite...Building around one player is a fallacy and a recipe for failure...

I believe its the opposite. You want to get the most out of your best player, when that player is possibly a generational talent. The numbers show so far in KP's situation, that this may be the case. This team changes offenses like ringtones. Chemistry is important, continuity is important. If the Knicks had surrounded Ewing with more players that fit his style, we would have stood a better chance of winning it all. Charles Smith?. SAS surrounded Robinson and Duncan with players who complemented their style of play, thats what we need to do with KP. Of course KP has to grow as a player for this to work.

Rose can get to the rim, but other than that he is just another PG diva who has made it clear that getting paid is his first priority. Thats not hyperbole. Around the time some of his Bulls teammates where making trips to the hospital, he was talking about getting paid, even though he had missed more games than any other player during that time period in the league. This is not who you want to put next to someome with Porzingis's potential for the next 4-5 years. The player you hand the rock to.

Would rather get someone like Teague who will look to give them a one two punch vs. Rose to Rose.

I completely, completely disagree...Sure fit is important..But Ewing's problem is that he didn't have another weapon, option next to him..MJ had Pippen..The team was specifically built around Ewing..How could you not see that..Oakley was perfect for Ewing, Starks and a PG who can get the ball to Ewing in the post...It was all about Ewing which was the problem ..SAS was the perfect example where two players who don't necessarily compliment each other but were two offensive weapons..How could you not recognize that..The coach was smart enough to make them work together...The Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh..Golden State with Curry, Thompson and Green who compliments what the team is doing but no a specific player...

But I'll take it further..KP has demonstrated so far that he works well as a complementary player...If he was a primary type player, he would command the attention when playing with the second unit..He mostly play off the ball which is why most of you want a PG to get him the ball for mostly spot up shots...But what happens when a player plays real defense against him like they do Melo and he is the focal point..What happens when they double him like Ewing???.I think your point of view is short sighted..You are emotionally looking at what you hope will happen and not seeing what is actually happening...

My point wasn't that Ewing wasnt surrounded by any players who complimented his style of play, it was that he wasnt surrounded with enough of them during his career. Riley came close late in Ewing's career. Talent was lacking as well, but we've seen plenty of talented players fail here because they were a bad fit.

If you are suggesting to me that KP's ceiling is Robin, I would recommend that you watch some of his rookie games again, when he played a larger part in the offense.

But everyone complimented Ewing...Every player...Oakley was the rebounder/bruiser/defender..Starks the three point shooter to create space for Ewing.. Mark Jackson was a great passer and knew how to feed the post...Wilkins was a slasher/defender...What was Ewing lacking in terms of a complimentary player???..They even brought in Ro Blackman and Kiki to be another option which was late in their careers..My point is that we didn't have enough weapons to take the pressure off Ewing...

I agree with you that Ewing was complimented well. And the Knicks won 50+ games every season during that timeframe, went to at least the 2nd round, and were 1 Starks disaster away from winning a title. This was a successful era of Knicks basketball. Winning a title would be nice, but they gave themselves a chance each year. That is all you can ask for. If you can build a team like this around KP, that is an accomplishment. Not really sure why it's even being argued that the Knicks didn't build correctly around Ewing. If Starks didn't go 1-18, the Knicks win a title in 1994 and this conversation would be much different. You wanted to use the Ewing era as a way to convince people building a team based on fit around one player is not the right way, but you have actually done of the opposite with this example. The Knicks were 1 win away from a championship. You have convinced me even more of how important 'fit' is. We can only be so lucky to build a team around KP like the Knicks did around Ewing, because that team was an elite team every year.

I can give you team after teams who had multiple assets/weapons and wasn't pigeonholed around one player who were successful..Lakers, Celtics, SAS,Golden State, Detroit, etc..And how do you know KP is that player??..Why limit yourself???

If you can find young players as good as KP who who will actually share the rock, pick their spots, then they're complimentary players. When a PG makes a habit of looking you off and calling his own number again and again, then they're not a complimentary player. Especially when bench players get more assists in less time. You seem to be arguing that Rose can do whatever he wants because he gets to the rim.

Rose took his teams to the conference finals, so it ain't him...Unless you just want to see a team where only KP shoots...

What's funny about people saying stuff that hasn't happened is that they can't be proven wrong until a few fears from now. There are better young players than KP out there. And it would be foolish to think their GM's would think to just "get young players like KP to share the rock" with them is a good strategy. You mean like Minnesota? Denver? Philly? Bucks? Suns?

Here is an article showing the top 25 players in 2012. Helps show you that players in first 2 years are not ones you want to jump the gun on when building a winner.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1247694-nbas-best-young-stars-ranking-the-top-25-players-under-25-years-of-age

You may recognize number 2. My favorite is Bynum at 4. Where is he now exactly? And ofcourse Rubio at 11 and our very own Jennings at 9. Yep, build around guys who just started taking a piss in NBA lockerrooms, but not a proven All Star that took you to 54 wins, when you get out if his way and gave him support. Doesnt make sense.Specially when you look at this list. KP may be one of the good ones, but **** he is 21. Let's give him some time.

You're putting words in my mouth and your stats mean nothing with regards to Porzingis. We were discussing what makes a complimentary player. Try building an entire team of young players as good as Porzingis has been. You make it sound so easy.

If you do and they arent looking for their own shot to the exclusion of everyone else, then they compliment KP. He's set enough NBA records, shown more growth at the early stages of his careers vs some of the greats, to take the chance of building around him. You dont start with a scrub, you start with a potential star.

You dont add mix and match pieces, players with different styles who dont mesh. Building a team around him doesnt mean you dont try to get players on his level, it means you get team players, players who will compliment each other's game. Rose aint it.

Knixkik wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[qhuote="GustavBahler"]

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:All these theories tying Rose to KP's issues comes up empty when the same thing happens when Rose is on the bench and KP plays with the second unit..

Maybe true, but bottom line is KP will significantly improve on offense next year once the knicks replace rose with a lower-volume, better passing pg. KP doesn't have a lot of opportunity in an offense with a pg that is a high-volume, low-efficiency scoring player.

Melo using the same PGs?..Everyone complains that KP is picking up all of Melo's bad habits..How come he isn't picking up the habit of scoring without a pass first pg?

He's scoring 19 points a game. What were you expecting?

Yeah i don't get all of the concerns. He averaged 14 ppg as a rookie. I figured he would average 17-18 ppg this year. Rose would obviously cut into his offense a little bit. But he has exceeded expectations for a 2nd year player, averaging 19 ppg. Now he has slumped a little coming back from injury. I just don't understand the expectations of Knick fans.

You are the one proposing insane trades in every thread to help KP and you don't get the concern???

I think you have my confused with someone else. I would like to get a PG like Rubio, but i am not proposing a bunch of trades. But what did you expect from KP this year? Did you think he was going to put up 22 and 10? Shoot 50% from the field?

That is the definition of an insane trade...And with regards to KP, I did not start this thread..I don't think he needs a PG to play better, you do...You are blaming his production on Rose, are you not???

Not at all. Rose is not the problem, he just isn't the solution. I believe anytime you have a young player you want to build around, you should be finding players that fit well with that player. I think Rose is a square peg in a round hole. But Porzingis needs to be doing other things to get involved, like he was earlier in the year. We are only talking about his last 10 or so games. And i don't see how trying to grab Rubio off the trading block is insane at all. It's logical and realistic.

That surely depends on what outcome you desire...I don't think you build a team with all players geared to make one player play efficiently..You are setting yourself up for failure..GS doesn't do that..Cleve doesn't do that...SAS doesn't do that...They are comfortable having many explosive players in their own rite...Building around one player is a fallacy and a recipe for failure...

I believe its the opposite. You want to get the most out of your best player, when that player is possibly a generational talent. The numbers show so far in KP's situation, that this may be the case. This team changes offenses like ringtones. Chemistry is important, continuity is important. If the Knicks had surrounded Ewing with more players that fit his style, we would have stood a better chance of winning it all. Charles Smith?. SAS surrounded Robinson and Duncan with players who complemented their style of play, thats what we need to do with KP. Of course KP has to grow as a player for this to work.

Rose can get to the rim, but other than that he is just another PG diva who has made it clear that getting paid is his first priority. Thats not hyperbole. Around the time some of his Bulls teammates where making trips to the hospital, he was talking about getting paid, even though he had missed more games than any other player during that time period in the league. This is not who you want to put next to someome with Porzingis's potential for the next 4-5 years. The player you hand the rock to.

Would rather get someone like Teague who will look to give them a one two punch vs. Rose to Rose.

I completely, completely disagree...Sure fit is important..But Ewing's problem is that he didn't have another weapon, option next to him..MJ had Pippen..The team was specifically built around Ewing..How could you not see that..Oakley was perfect for Ewing, Starks and a PG who can get the ball to Ewing in the post...It was all about Ewing which was the problem ..SAS was the perfect example where two players who don't necessarily compliment each other but were two offensive weapons..How could you not recognize that..The coach was smart enough to make them work together...The Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh..Golden State with Curry, Thompson and Green who compliments what the team is doing but no a specific player...

But I'll take it further..KP has demonstrated so far that he works well as a complementary player...If he was a primary type player, he would command the attention when playing with the second unit..He mostly play off the ball which is why most of you want a PG to get him the ball for mostly spot up shots...But what happens when a player plays real defense against him like they do Melo and he is the focal point..What happens when they double him like Ewing???.I think your point of view is short sighted..You are emotionally looking at what you hope will happen and not seeing what is actually happening...

My point wasn't that Ewing wasnt surrounded by any players who complimented his style of play, it was that he wasnt surrounded with enough of them during his career. Riley came close late in Ewing's career. Talent was lacking as well, but we've seen plenty of talented players fail here because they were a bad fit.

If you are suggesting to me that KP's ceiling is Robin, I would recommend that you watch some of his rookie games again, when he played a larger part in the offense.

But everyone complimented Ewing...Every player...Oakley was the rebounder/bruiser/defender..Starks the three point shooter to create space for Ewing.. Mark Jackson was a great passer and knew how to feed the post...Wilkins was a slasher/defender...What was Ewing lacking in terms of a complimentary player???..They even brought in Ro Blackman and Kiki to be another option which was late in their careers..My point is that we didn't have enough weapons to take the pressure off Ewing...

I agree with you that Ewing was complimented well. And the Knicks won 50+ games every season during that timeframe, went to at least the 2nd round, and were 1 Starks disaster away from winning a title. This was a successful era of Knicks basketball. Winning a title would be nice, but they gave themselves a chance each year. That is all you can ask for. If you can build a team like this around KP, that is an accomplishment. Not really sure why it's even being argued that the Knicks didn't build correctly around Ewing. If Starks didn't go 1-18, the Knicks win a title in 1994 and this conversation would be much different. You wanted to use the Ewing era as a way to convince people building a team based on fit around one player is not the right way, but you have actually done of the opposite with this example. The Knicks were 1 win away from a championship. You have convinced me even more of how important 'fit' is. We can only be so lucky to build a team around KP like the Knicks did around Ewing, because that team was an elite team every year.

I can give you team after teams who had multiple assets/weapons and wasn't pigeonholed around one player who were successful..Lakers, Celtics, SAS,Golden State, Detroit, etc..And how do you know KP is that player??..Why limit yourself???

If you can find young players as good as KP who who will actually share the rock, pick their spots, then they're complimentary players. When a PG makes a habit of looking you off and calling his own number again and again, then they're not a complimentary player. Especially when bench players get more assists in less time. You seem to be arguing that Rose can do whatever he wants because he gets to the rim.

Rose took his teams to the conference finals, so it ain't him...Unless you just want to see a team where only KP shoots...

What's funny about people saying stuff that hasn't happened is that they can't be proven wrong until a few fears from now. There are better young players than KP out there. And it would be foolish to think their GM's would think to just "get young players like KP to share the rock" with them is a good strategy. You mean like Minnesota? Denver? Philly? Bucks? Suns?

Here is an article showing the top 25 players in 2012. Helps show you that players in first 2 years are not ones you want to jump the gun on when building a winner.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1247694-nbas-best-young-stars-ranking-the-top-25-players-under-25-years-of-age

You may recognize number 2. My favorite is Bynum at 4. Where is he now exactly? And ofcourse Rubio at 11 and our very own Jennings at 9. Yep, build around guys who just started taking a piss in NBA lockerrooms, but not a proven All Star that took you to 54 wins, when you get out if his way and gave him support. Doesnt make sense.Specially when you look at this list. KP may be one of the good ones, but **** he is 21. Let's give him some time.

You're putting words in my mouth and your stats mean nothing with regards to Porzingis. We were discussing what makes a complimentary player. Try building an entire team of young players as good as Porzingis has been. You make it sound so easy.

If you do and they arent looking for their own shot to the exclusion of everyone else, then they compliment KP. He's set enough NBA records, shown more growth at the early stages of his careers vs some of the greats, to take the chance of building around him. You dont start with a scrub, you start with a potential star.

You dont add mix and match pieces, players with different styles who dont mesh. Building a team around him doesnt mean you dont try to get players on his level, it means you get team players, players who will compliment each other's game. Rose aint it.

I have to think if the Knicks are exploring trading Melo they would be open to trading Rose as well. Also, if Melo is moved on draft night I don't see Rose being brought back.

I don't really see how Rose is brought back either way. It was a good gamble, but doesn't seem like a long-term fit with or without Melo.

Melo has seen better days. I cant remember a better draft pick to build around since Ewing. Cant remember the last team to win a championship without at least one home grown star.

You have to start somewhere. Ive seen enough to believe that the Knicks should take a chance on KP, or we could just keep trying with aging stars and head cases.

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Talking about post-Melo which seems like its going to happen this summer at the latest. Rose doesn't fit with Melo either, Im guessing thats why in part that he passed on the Bulls, Rose didn't try to recruit Melo when he visited for his "decision".

Melo has seen better days. I cant remember a better draft pick to build around since Ewing. Cant remember the last team to win a championship without at least one home grown star.

You have to start somewhere. Ive seen enough to believe that the Knicks should take a chance on KP, or we could just keep trying with aging stars and head cases.

Can you recall us having a decent front office?

Has nothing to do with my point that (for whatever reason) this is the best opportunity the Knicks have had to build successfully around a draft pick since Ewing. During that span its been mostly retreads, has beens, quick fixes.

Looks like we have a potential star. Time to build around him like every other successful championship team. No guarantee except the old way leading nowhere.

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Talking about post-Melo which seems like its going to happen this summer at the latest. Rose doesn't fit with Melo either, Im guessing thats why in part that he passed on the Bulls, Rose didn't try to recruit Melo when he visited for his "decision".

Melo has seen better days. I cant remember a better draft pick to build around since Ewing. Cant remember the last team to win a championship without at least one home grown star.

You have to start somewhere. Ive seen enough to believe that the Knicks should take a chance on KP, or we could just keep trying with aging stars and head cases.

Can you recall us having a decent front office?

Has nothing to do with my point that (for whatever reason) this is the best opportunity the Knicks have had to build successfully around a draft pick since Ewing. During that span its been mostly retreads, has beens, quick fixes.

Looks like we have a potential star. Time to build around him like every other successful championship team. No guarantee except the old way leading nowhere.

It takes a decent front office to build around a young team too..So ignoring the aptitude of the front office with a vet squad or a young team could be equally dangerous..

Which is why I would like to see a new GM. Gaines has shown an apititude for finding talent, thats a start and you have to start somewhere. The alternative is what? The next Amar'e?

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Talking about post-Melo which seems like its going to happen this summer at the latest. Rose doesn't fit with Melo either, Im guessing thats why in part that he passed on the Bulls, Rose didn't try to recruit Melo when he visited for his "decision".

Melo has seen better days. I cant remember a better draft pick to build around since Ewing. Cant remember the last team to win a championship without at least one home grown star.

You have to start somewhere. Ive seen enough to believe that the Knicks should take a chance on KP, or we could just keep trying with aging stars and head cases.

Can you recall us having a decent front office?

Has nothing to do with my point that (for whatever reason) this is the best opportunity the Knicks have had to build successfully around a draft pick since Ewing. During that span its been mostly retreads, has beens, quick fixes.

Looks like we have a potential star. Time to build around him like every other successful championship team. No guarantee except the old way leading nowhere.

It takes a decent front office to build around a young team too..So ignoring the aptitude of the front office with a vet squad or a young team could be equally dangerous..

Which is why I would like to see a new GM. Gaines has shown an apititude for finding talent, thats a start and you have to start somewhere. The alternative is what? The next Amar'e?

My point is going young doesn't mean Championship if the same people are making bad decisions..Just as important as the players on the court are the executives building the team..

I understand that holfresh. I used the word 'risk" twice in this thread, and "chance" once when referring to this strategy. Im quite aware that even if we have a good GM, there is no guarantee of success. Dont believe I could have made that clearer.

I will guarantee that continuing on this course of quick fixes that the Knicks have been on forever it seems, is doomed to fail.

Again, try to remember the last time a team won a championship without at least one home grown star. Have to start somewhere.

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Talking about post-Melo which seems like its going to happen this summer at the latest. Rose doesn't fit with Melo either, Im guessing thats why in part that he passed on the Bulls, Rose didn't try to recruit Melo when he visited for his "decision".

Melo has seen better days. I cant remember a better draft pick to build around since Ewing. Cant remember the last team to win a championship without at least one home grown star.

You have to start somewhere. Ive seen enough to believe that the Knicks should take a chance on KP, or we could just keep trying with aging stars and head cases.

Can you recall us having a decent front office?

Has nothing to do with my point that (for whatever reason) this is the best opportunity the Knicks have had to build successfully around a draft pick since Ewing. During that span its been mostly retreads, has beens, quick fixes.

Looks like we have a potential star. Time to build around him like every other successful championship team. No guarantee except the old way leading nowhere.

It takes a decent front office to build around a young team too..So ignoring the aptitude of the front office with a vet squad or a young team could be equally dangerous..

Which is why I would like to see a new GM. Gaines has shown an apititude for finding talent, thats a start and you have to start somewhere. The alternative is what? The next Amar'e?

My point is going young doesn't mean Championship if the same people are making bad decisions..Just as important as the players on the court are the executives building the team..

I understand that holfresh. I used the word 'risk" twice in this thread, and "chance" once when referring to this strategy. Im quite aware that even if we have a good GM, there is no guarantee of success. Dont believe I could have made that clearer.

I will guarantee that continuing on this course of quick fixes that the Knicks have been on forever it seems, is doomed to fail.

Again, try to remember the last time a team won a championship without at least one home grown star. Have to start somewhere.

Sure..It easy to say doomed to failure with bad GMs and coaches which is what we have seen..The metric doesn't change becuase it's a young team..All I'm saying..

I believe that quote says it all.