You keep him for 15-17M a year, maybe, but do you think he will accept that kind of money...no way.

There are good things about him...no doubt about that, but he is not a player who makes others better, and his D is below standard. I can live with the poor 3 pt shooting to a degree, and love the way he goes to the basket, but his lack of assists and the fact he doesn't get foul calls. for whatever reason, is an issue.

We aren't really playing the Triangle anymore, so a starting PG doesn't have that excuse for a low assist total, anymore. His assist numbers are not really acceptable for me. I know that is his history...but his assist totals are well below his historical numbers, even though his minutes are almost the same.

I just need someone who is a better passer and defender at the position.

WaltLongmire wrote:Rose will ask for a Max...near Max contract... He is not worth it, sorry.

You keep him for 15-17M a year, maybe, but do you think he will accept that kind of money...no way.

There are good things about him...no doubt about that, but he is not a player who makes others better, and his D is below standard. I can live with the poor 3 pt shooting to a degree, and love the way he goes to the basket, but his lack of assists and the fact he doesn't get foul calls. for whatever reason, is an issue.

We aren't really playing the Triangle anymore, so a starting PG doesn't have that excuse for a low assist total, anymore. His assist numbers are not really acceptable for me. I know that is his history...but his assist totals are well below his historical numbers, even though his minutes are almost the same.

I just need someone who is a better passer and defender at the position.

Rose is a good player individually, but up to this point in his Knicks tenure, his impact on the team wins has been no more than Calderon. We are year on from last year's .500 start, and despite having a better Porzingis, an all-star level talent in Melo, the team still struggles to get above .500

I don't blame all that on Rose, but if you are going to pay someone 20-25 million a year which is what he will get, you want more than what he brings. I think his best role right now in his career is a 6th man on a contender. I struggle to see him start on any top 5 team in a conference. Like Walt said, I would keep him if the money is right. You get a bargain, you take it. Anything else, I do not.

By just going on his words a year ago in Chicago, Rose and his agent will push for the max. They may not get it, but they will not be taking bargain deals. He's going to look for a huge contract and I would prefer the Knicks not be silly enough to give it to him.

I'm fine with signing some role players at point guard and drafting well. We will likely be drafting in the early teens of the draft. We can pick up some serious talent there.

I think if we had Calderon, Melo would be in the point forward role and we'd be a different type of team. Less fast breaks and 1 on 1 play, but also better execution. You look at our record a year ago, it's almost identical. Despite a better Porzingis. I think Rose's impact has been negligble. He's using a high rate of plays - has a high usage. That leads to good numbers. His net impact though is not much. I hate to say this only because I was so excited to see him play healthy and explosive at season's start. But the guy just isn't the right fit for this group. The only thing I think would work is if they brought him off the bench. He's a fantastic scorer or capable to get to the basket at will. The 2nd unit could use that. Allow Melo and KP to rest more. With the starters, I find Rose's net impact to be neither positive or negative. I think advanced stats will show that as well.

He plays his best when he's the man. Sort of like when Melo got ejected that game. Or when KP/Melo both missed the Houston game. To me that screams for this team current Knicks team, Rose should be in Jennings spot. Let Baker start or trade for someone who is capable to. I've got nothing against keeping Rose if he is willing to take a good contract and would be open to coming off the bench.

I would say his market value is simple: What the market will pay. If he wants to be here, the knicks can let him seek that price and match it. Its a risk as he might decide to take his talents elsewhere.

At the same time, knicks can pay him more than others. AN likely will if we want him as well.
Nalod is undecided still. His flat shot is maddening but his touch passes are awesome. The penetration game is great but he is not a great passer.

As for Jennings, he can't see the pick and roll with KP. he missed him a few times and that off balance jumper is awful.
I like the kids spirit but he appears to be regressing or teams are pushing him to his weaknesses.

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Rose will ask for a Max...near Max contract... He is not worth it, sorry.

You keep him for 15-17M a year, maybe, but do you think he will accept that kind of money...no way.

There are good things about him...no doubt about that, but he is not a player who makes others better, and his D is below standard. I can live with the poor 3 pt shooting to a degree, and love the way he goes to the basket, but his lack of assists and the fact he doesn't get foul calls. for whatever reason, is an issue.

We aren't really playing the Triangle anymore, so a starting PG doesn't have that excuse for a low assist total, anymore. His assist numbers are not really acceptable for me. I know that is his history...but his assist totals are well below his historical numbers, even though his minutes are almost the same.

I just need someone who is a better passer and defender at the position.

Agree 100% with Walt here.

Rose is a good player individually, but up to this point in his Knicks tenure, his impact on the team wins has been no more than Calderon. We are year on from last year's .500 start, and despite having a better Porzingis, an all-star level talent in Melo, the team still struggles to get above .500

I don't blame all that on Rose, but if you are going to pay someone 20-25 million a year which is what he will get, you want more than what he brings. I think his best role right now in his career is a 6th man on a contender. I struggle to see him start on any top 5 team in a conference. Like Walt said, I would keep him if the money is right. You get a bargain, you take it. Anything else, I do not.

By just going on his words a year ago in Chicago, Rose and his agent will push for the max. They may not get it, but they will not be taking bargain deals. He's going to look for a huge contract and I would prefer the Knicks not be silly enough to give it to him.

I'm fine with signing some role players at point guard and drafting well. We will likely be drafting in the early teens of the draft. We can pick up some serious talent there.

So are you insinuating that if Calderon were on this team today as our starting PG we would have the similar record? smh

Does anyone know our record when Melo, KP, and rose all play? It has to be pretty good, and terrible when 1 of them is out. That's not on Rose. We need other guys that can step up when needed.

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Individually Rose is a much better player than Calderon. It shouldn't be about Rose vs Calderon. Calderon was on his way out anyway.

I think if we had Calderon, Melo would be in the point forward role and we'd be a different type of team. Less fast breaks and 1 on 1 play, but also better execution. You look at our record a year ago, it's almost identical. Despite a better Porzingis. I think Rose's impact has been negligble. He's using a high rate of plays - has a high usage. That leads to good numbers. His net impact though is not much. I hate to say this only because I was so excited to see him play healthy and explosive at season's start. But the guy just isn't the right fit for this group. The only thing I think would work is if they brought him off the bench. He's a fantastic scorer or capable to get to the basket at will. The 2nd unit could use that. Allow Melo and KP to rest more. With the starters, I find Rose's net impact to be neither positive or negative. I think advanced stats will show that as well.

He plays his best when he's the man. Sort of like when Melo got ejected that game. Or when KP/Melo both missed the Houston game. To me that screams for this team current Knicks team, Rose should be in Jennings spot. Let Baker start or trade for someone who is capable to. I've got nothing against keeping Rose if he is willing to take a good contract and would be open to coming off the bench.

Like I mentioned in another post, Knick fans are so reactionary. Lets revisit this discussion in April. I am confident if he stays healthy we're going to be much more appreciative of Rose, especially compared to who we had last season. Other than hitting the occasional open jumper (and perhaps being good in the locker room) Calderon brought zilch to the table.

This is a team sport. Rose alone is not responsible for our success or lack of success thus far.

I think the Knicks are a work in progress. And that progress will unfold. The playoffs are everything. Whoever plays well or tanks there will decide resignings and for how much. Phil has been prudent in managing the Knicks payroll. Anthony took a haircut and I suspect Rose will too if the future looks, well, 'rosey'.

Jennings reminds me of Jamal Crawford who I couldn't wait to be traded only to regret that impulse as Crawford matured his game. While I wouldn't classify Jennings as untouchable, some patience may be in order.

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Individually Rose is a much better player than Calderon. It shouldn't be about Rose vs Calderon. Calderon was on his way out anyway.

I think if we had Calderon, Melo would be in the point forward role and we'd be a different type of team. Less fast breaks and 1 on 1 play, but also better execution. You look at our record a year ago, it's almost identical. Despite a better Porzingis. I think Rose's impact has been negligble. He's using a high rate of plays - has a high usage. That leads to good numbers. His net impact though is not much. I hate to say this only because I was so excited to see him play healthy and explosive at season's start. But the guy just isn't the right fit for this group. The only thing I think would work is if they brought him off the bench. He's a fantastic scorer or capable to get to the basket at will. The 2nd unit could use that. Allow Melo and KP to rest more. With the starters, I find Rose's net impact to be neither positive or negative. I think advanced stats will show that as well.

He plays his best when he's the man. Sort of like when Melo got ejected that game. Or when KP/Melo both missed the Houston game. To me that screams for this team current Knicks team, Rose should be in Jennings spot. Let Baker start or trade for someone who is capable to. I've got nothing against keeping Rose if he is willing to take a good contract and would be open to coming off the bench.

Like I mentioned in another post, Knick fans are so reactionary. Lets revisit this discussion in April. I am confident if he stays healthy we're going to be much more appreciative of Rose, especially compared to who we had last season. Other than hitting the occasional open jumper (and perhaps being good in the locker room) Calderon brought zilch to the table.

This is a team sport. Rose alone is not responsible for our success or lack of success thus far.

He's much more of a reactive passer, who frequently dishes when he has no chance to score, but we all know that his first choice is to look to score. He's much more of an old school "guard" from the days when you didn't necessarily use the terms "point" or "shooting" when describing a guard, but Rose is much more of a shooting guard than a PG.

We have guys who can score. Lee is a great spot-up shooter, and we know what Melo and KP can do. Why don't we have a PG who can take advantage of these guys and get them into optimal positions to score. Yes, Rose had a good assist game last night, but he is averaging only 4.5 APG as out starting PG. Sorry, but that is not good enough for me.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Individually Rose is a much better player than Calderon. It shouldn't be about Rose vs Calderon. Calderon was on his way out anyway.

I think if we had Calderon, Melo would be in the point forward role and we'd be a different type of team. Less fast breaks and 1 on 1 play, but also better execution. You look at our record a year ago, it's almost identical. Despite a better Porzingis. I think Rose's impact has been negligble. He's using a high rate of plays - has a high usage. That leads to good numbers. His net impact though is not much. I hate to say this only because I was so excited to see him play healthy and explosive at season's start. But the guy just isn't the right fit for this group. The only thing I think would work is if they brought him off the bench. He's a fantastic scorer or capable to get to the basket at will. The 2nd unit could use that. Allow Melo and KP to rest more. With the starters, I find Rose's net impact to be neither positive or negative. I think advanced stats will show that as well.

He plays his best when he's the man. Sort of like when Melo got ejected that game. Or when KP/Melo both missed the Houston game. To me that screams for this team current Knicks team, Rose should be in Jennings spot. Let Baker start or trade for someone who is capable to. I've got nothing against keeping Rose if he is willing to take a good contract and would be open to coming off the bench.

Like I mentioned in another post, Knick fans are so reactionary. Lets revisit this discussion in April. I am confident if he stays healthy we're going to be much more appreciative of Rose, especially compared to who we had last season. Other than hitting the occasional open jumper (and perhaps being good in the locker room) Calderon brought zilch to the table.

This is a team sport. Rose alone is not responsible for our success or lack of success thus far.

Yet he plays what is arguably THE most important "team" position on a team that doesn't have another high assist distributor. You see what the great "point" players are able to do for a team.

He's much more of a reactive passer, who frequently dishes when he has no chance to score, but we all know that his first choice is to look to score. He's much more of an old school "guard" from the days when you didn't necessarily use the terms "point" or "shooting" when describing a guard, but Rose is much more of a shooting guard than a PG.

We have guys who can score. Lee is a great spot-up shooter, and we know what Melo and KP can do. Why don't we have a PG who can take advantage of these guys and get them into optimal positions to score. Yes, Rose had a good assist game last night, but he is averaging only 4.5 APG as out starting PG. Sorry, but that is not good enough for me.

I agree. If Rose wasn't the PG, was an SG, or was instant offense off the bench, I could see him making this team more competitive. That is with a starting PG who knows his primary task is to keep his teammates on the same page.

As you pointed out, Rose passes too often to get bailed out. Marbury did that a lot too, but he still managed to double his assists. Marbury ran a lot of P&Rs as well.

Baker showed that even a rookie PG can do wonders for this team because he tried to make his teammates better. Thats why Baker helped win the game in the 4th last night, and Rose didn't.