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Sweetney is Untouchable now?
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Nalod
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8/9/2004  9:57 PM
Posted by MS:

Shareef is a good player but he is a loser, thats what he does, every where he goes he doesn't make a difference and can't carry a team to the playoff. They had terry, robinson, and ratliff and couldn't get into the playoffs in the east thats a disgrace.......Has anyone watched vince cater play, because when he is on his game he is better than paul pierce, lebron, and just about every other player in the league, he wins games by himself, and beats people off the dribble. You trade TT for Vince not Sweetney....He is hard nosed like to rebound and defend, you don't find hard workers often.......

I would not be too picky on that. Marbs has seen like 3 playoff games in 8 years? TT? Crawford? Damp? Penny? Nazr?

And we have the highest Payroll!

These guys are not what you call big game players nor have demostrated leadership condusive to winning. I would not call Shareef a loser without calling most of our veterans the same. In fact, the guys we smack on the most like KT and Allan have done well in playoffs!

Rahim would fit right in with this group! This is the overpaid underacomplished team. Thats how you get talent the old fashioned way, you "Buy" it.

Im not hating fellas, but are we not getting a little uppity these days about who and what we are?

Keeping it real for tonite.
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Bonn1997
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8/9/2004  10:43 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by MS:

Shareef is a good player but he is a loser, thats what he does, every where he goes he doesn't make a difference and can't carry a team to the playoff. They had terry, robinson, and ratliff and couldn't get into the playoffs in the east thats a disgrace.......Has anyone watched vince cater play, because when he is on his game he is better than paul pierce, lebron, and just about every other player in the league, he wins games by himself, and beats people off the dribble. You trade TT for Vince not Sweetney....He is hard nosed like to rebound and defend, you don't find hard workers often.......

I would not be too picky on that. Marbs has seen like 3 playoff games in 8 years?
Actually it's eighteen playoff games--six times your answer. You were pretty close
Bonn1997
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8/9/2004  11:01 PM
Posted by technomaster:

Wow...

Here are Shareef's career numbers.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shareef_abdur-rahim/index.html?nav=page

Career averages: 20.1ppg, 8.2rpg, 2.8apg, 46.6% from the field

His 1.08steals/gm and .86blocks/gm are just "eh" for a PF.

Of course... keep in mind that SAR's career numbers are better in EVERY category than Tim Thomas's best except for 3pt shooting.
Those look about the same as Charles Smith's #s with the Clippers. And their teams had about the same success.
kevlofton
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8/9/2004  11:16 PM
Posted by rain:
Posted by EnySpree:

I kind of like the idea of having Shareef and Timmy on the wings. If Sweetney had to go to make it happen I would cry a whole night and maybe the next morning but Shareef has proven he is capable of doing alot of good things with the basketball.

We all are kind of placing Sweets on a pedistal. I hope he lives up to our hype.

To say Sweets will be better than Shareef is saying Sweets will be a top five big man soon. Shareef may not be a top five power fwd but dude is definately top 10.

I think Isiah would definately have to consider it.
How exactly is Shareef a power forward? There's nothing powerful about his game. He's a finesse player. We need rebounds, blocks, and physical presence inside. We don't get that with Shareef... older with a worse contract. Shareef isn't exactly in demand right now.

Shareef's Career avgs are 20.1 Points and 8.2 Rebounds and he is only 27. Who do we have that can do that????? Maybe Sweetny is about 3-4 years??? He also runs the floor.
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Bonn1997
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8/9/2004  11:28 PM
Posted by kevlofton:
Posted by rain:
Posted by EnySpree:

I kind of like the idea of having Shareef and Timmy on the wings. If Sweetney had to go to make it happen I would cry a whole night and maybe the next morning but Shareef has proven he is capable of doing alot of good things with the basketball.

We all are kind of placing Sweets on a pedistal. I hope he lives up to our hype.

To say Sweets will be better than Shareef is saying Sweets will be a top five big man soon. Shareef may not be a top five power fwd but dude is definately top 10.

I think Isiah would definately have to consider it.
How exactly is Shareef a power forward? There's nothing powerful about his game. He's a finesse player. We need rebounds, blocks, and physical presence inside. We don't get that with Shareef... older with a worse contract. Shareef isn't exactly in demand right now.

Shareef's Career avgs are 20.1 Points and 8.2 Rebounds and he is only 27. Who do we have that can do that?????
I think we have a lot of players who could lead a team like Atlanta to the lottery every year
BigSm00th
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8/10/2004  12:53 AM
Nobody on the Knicks besides Penny and Houston (and those were different players, so that makes it a moot point) has had any success in the playoffs.

Marbury, though I think he will ultimately do something, hasn't done anything, neither has Crawford, Tim Thomas, Nazr Mohammed, ERICK DAMPIER (if they get him), Mike Sweetney, etc.

Since that makes your entire debate of how good his teams have been (how good were Crawford's Bulls, Marbury's Nets, Dampier's Warriors, etc? He seems like he'd fit right in) pretty much no debate at all.

The question is will Sweetney become an Elton Brand/Zach Randolph type bruiser, or will he be a foul prone, fundamental lacking (he missed an awful lot of easy shots in summer league) big man. If you can answer that question, you can decide on this trade (would Portland even do this when they have Randolph??)

If I'm a GM and I don't think he'll amount to anything, I'd build him up and then deal him.

Isiah obviously thinks he'll be something (taking him to the playoff games, having him get special tutelage from Aguirre and Kareem, etc), so I highly doubt anything like this would happen. Not to mention the trade doesn't work financially.

Yes, Abdur-Rahim's put up great numbers on bad teams. So have most of the Knicks.

The question is how good will Sweetney be? Let's hope he's a 16/10 bruiser with a post game, or the Knicks are in trouble.

[Edited by - bigsm00th on 08/10/2004 00:53:55]
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technomaster
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8/10/2004  3:45 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by technomaster:

Wow...

Here are Shareef's career numbers.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shareef_abdur-rahim/index.html?nav=page

Career averages: 20.1ppg, 8.2rpg, 2.8apg, 46.6% from the field

His 1.08steals/gm and .86blocks/gm are just "eh" for a PF.

Of course... keep in mind that SAR's career numbers are better in EVERY category than Tim Thomas's best except for 3pt shooting.
Those look about the same as Charles Smith's #s with the Clippers. And their teams had about the same success.

Well... SAR at least has put up good numbers on 2 different teams already. He's maybe not a franchise-type player, but he's clearly an established scorer/rebounder. I'm not too familiar with his game, though.

I wonder if Sweetney being an Elton Brand-type is a good thing... because what exactly has he proven in this league? His teams have finished with comparably bad records like SAR's...

I think SAR/Brand are both tweener-type forwards--- perhaps SAR has a little too much finesse, and Brand has too little size. Both are proficient scorers (SAR seems better), both are good rebounders (Brand is much better). Both average fairly high assists for big men (2.5-3ish).

An interesting trade idea would be trading Sweetney + ??? for the real thing.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
lj02knicks
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8/10/2004  3:52 AM
How come everyone is calling shareef a loser and nobody's calling elton brand a loser. don't get me wrong, i love elton brand's game but he's never won anything in this league also.
raven
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8/10/2004  5:06 AM
sad but true, only one team a year wins it all. so, 29/30 of the league is made of loosers.

I'd rather settle with sweet though. he made some strides, he has a good work ethic, PF is not our weakness, so let's try to fill the c position before all.
fishmike
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8/10/2004  8:49 AM
Brand isnt a tweener at all, he's a buldozer PF and a bigtime player on both sides of the ball.

Show me another 6'8 player that blocks 2 shots a game.

The winning losing thing is a perception and as we saw with Sprewell (one playoff series, one first round sweep) that can change pretty quickly.

I dont like SAR because I have never seen him have any impact on defense. Kurt Thomas would repeatedly have big games against him. I also feel for a 20/8 player he's soft. His #s just dont seem to impact the game... he's a lot like KVH in that regard.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
joec32033
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8/10/2004  8:59 AM
Posted by s3231:

"Here are PFs I'd take ahead of Shareef (you have to consider defense and potential, not just scoring)
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Amare Stoudemire
Elton Brand
Jermaine O’Neal
Kenyon Martin
Dirk Nowitzki
Carlos Boozer
Rasheed Wallace
Pao Gasol
Antoine Walker
Zach Randolph
Chris Bosh
Nene Hilario
Kurt Thomas
Mike Sweetney"




I'm gonna add Chris Webber to that list

Is this list a who would you rather have list or who is better list? If it is a who is better list, I would have to take off KT, Thomas, Bosh, Sweetney, and at this point Webber is on an even keel with Reef. Of course I would rather have all those guys you listed (save for KT and Antoine) instead of Shareef.
~You can't run from who you are.~
Solace
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8/10/2004  9:07 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by EnySpree:

I kind of like the idea of having Shareef and Timmy on the wings. If Sweetney had to go to make it happen I would cry a whole night and maybe the next morning but Shareef has proven he is capable of doing alot of good things with the basketball.

We all are kind of placing Sweets on a pedistal. I hope he lives up to our hype.

To say Sweets will be better than Shareef is saying Sweets will be a top five big man soon. Shareef may not be a top five power fwd but dude is definately top 10.
I'd call him a top 15 or 18 PF (i.e., an average starting PF).

Here are PFs I'd take ahead of Shareef (you have to consider defense and potential, not just scoring)
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Amare Stoudemire
Elton Brand
Jermaine O’Neal
Kenyon Martin
Dirk Nowitzki
Carlos Boozer
Rasheed Wallace
Pao Gasol
Antoine Walker
Zach Randolph
Chris Bosh
Nene Hilario
Kurt Thomas
Mike Sweetney

Hey Bonn. I finally found a way to post here from work. :P

Anyway, I think you're being a little unfair. Reef is currently better than at least 5 of the players you listed. I know his defense is questionable, but he's probably more like somewhere around 11-13 in the PF rankings. While not a huge difference, he's not *that* bad. Would I trade Sweetney for him? No. I don't think Shareef fits this team, especially with his lack of defensive intensity. Shareef plays more of the mold of a SF I'd like than a PF. If we were trading Tim Thomas for Shareef and playing Shareef mostly at SF, I'd like it, but Sweetney (plus Penny or whoever) for Shareef doesn't make sense.

As for Vince, whether it's justified or not, he's still one of the biggest attractions in the NBA. When you trade for Vince, you trade for a big moneymaker, so yes, I would trade Sweetney in a deal for Vince, even though it would require us to make follow-up deals to make it work.
...
Bonn1997
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8/10/2004  9:12 AM
Glad to see you here. I'd take all those players ahead of him because they're better on defense; some may not be as good right now but have much more upside (e.g., Nene). But I can understand someone ranking him closer to 12. I just find it hard to believe how over-rated he is by a few people.
Nalod
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8/10/2004  10:16 AM
If you can get them for sweetney thats one thing.

Charles smith? Whos talking about him. It was a dumb move from day one.

Marbs 18 playoff games? Oh, I forgot the four great games here.

I forgot the years of winning records and how well he made all those around him. I forgot that hes on 4 teams in 8 years and loved everywhere he went.

The point is not my factual (gee I'll look it up and feel better being a nerd) figure but the point of calling a player a loser when we got lots of potential talented players making a boatload with little on the resume that spells any kind of reunion in 20 years to reemember the old days.

The underdog status of these mutts makes it an interesting collection of misfits whom would make a nice story of "coming of age".

Isiah can be their "Mr Mioghee" teaching them the wisdom of self confidence and the "golden Age" of enlightment has nothing to do with "BLING"!

Oh, why not look up and tell me how to spell "Mioghee", you know the mentor from "Karate Kid". Anal snit!
NineMike2Whiskey
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8/10/2004  9:32 PM
People are being hard on Marbs, lets judge him in his first full season with the Knicks now that he possess a respectable supporting cast. Kidd was heading nowhere period in Phoenix, the change of scenery did him good.
Bonn1997
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8/10/2004  9:46 PM
Posted by NineMike2Whiskey:

People are being hard on Marbs
It's Nalod who has a problem with Marbury; don't worry about it
simrud
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8/10/2004  11:25 PM
Yep, Marbury blows, bring back Eisly and Ward. Now they were winners. All those playoff games and wins that Ward had made him so much better. And oh my, he was also a great teammate, got along with everyboyd he ever played with. We were crazy to trade him away for a garbage player like Marbury. This teams blows too and its Iseah's fault, how dare he spend Dolan's money, you any day now they'll go bankrupt and disband the Knicks, then you'll all know Nalod was right.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Rich
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8/10/2004  11:34 PM
No one should ever be untouchable if the trade would improve the team. It's just tough to see how any feasible trades for Marbury would help the team on the court, or in Sweetney's case, not hurt it financially.
VDesai
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8/11/2004  1:06 AM
Posted by Rich:

No one should ever be untouchable if the trade would improve the team. It's just tough to see how any feasible trades for Marbury would help the team on the court, or in Sweetney's case, not hurt it financially.

Exactly.
raven
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8/11/2004  3:09 AM
Posted by NineMike2Whiskey:

People are being hard on Marbs, lets judge him in his first full season with the Knicks now that he possess a respectable supporting cast. Kidd was heading nowhere period in Phoenix, the change of scenery did him good.

agree.

Being a good player and winning is much easier when you surrounded by good players (or good role players), and that you have a clear vision of what you have to do, what role you must have.

Kidd was the perfect example of failure. What did he do before the nets ? except helping breaking the three "j" (three j, one brain, that's not enough). Oh, as you'd say nalod, i forgot his great carreer in phoenix.

No. I guess we'll have to waith this yr to see what marb's really worth. Same applies to TT, to lenny, to sweet, to houston.

This team has a lot to prove.

Last time we had so much to prove, back then in '99, we went to the finals.

repeat ?
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