Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Welpee wrote:

teamsport72 wrote:Do not dress Melo for second games of back-to-backs!
Especially, if on the road. Net negative value.
Make it look as a sign of respect for the veteran, like as if preserving his legs for the playoff run!
In his absence others can be expected to willingly put in that little extra effort which decides games like the one last night.
Will see if Hornacek figures this out as the season goes.

Yeah, because the 22 pts, 6 reb, and 2.5 assists he averages in the 2nd of back to back games is so easy to replace. Meanwhile KP averages only 16 ppg in the 2nd of back to backs and nobody says a word.

Yeah PPG is a great way to measure overall offensive production. I could get 22 in an NBA game if they let me shoot every single time down the court. That is Melo's philosophy as well. I'm going to get 20 points even if it takes 30 shots to get there. He has more talent around him now, he has no business shooting 25 times when he is that off. It was a brutal performance last night. He cost them the game. This is why the Knicks will always float around .500, Carmelo will have good nights and they win, followed by a ghastly performance giving them little to no chance of winning.

Melo was the reason we lost last night? smh!

Why is it so hard to believe that Melo did more harm than good in this game? He shot 7 of 25. The team was -16 with him on the court and +11 with him off the court (the worst plus minus on the team).

Let me post this disclaimer first: I am not saying anything negative about KP, just using him as an example of the selective use of advance stats:

KP is -18.3 in +/- in the 2nd game of back to back games. So does that mean he's hurting us?

It *might* mean he has hurt the team in 2nd games of back to backs. All I wrote was that the idea that Melo had hurt the team in that one game wasn't far-fetched. I'm sure Michael Jordan had games where he hurt his team too.

So Saturday night we would've been better off if Melo didn't play? Or in the Boston game when KP was -24 we would've been better if he didn't play?

Saturday if we didn't play Melo (-16), Lee (-15), Noah (-12), Rose (-9) and Willy (-8) and just played KP (0), O'Quinn (+13), Kuz (+2), Holiday (+11), Jennings (+2), and Vujacic (+7) you think we probably win?

I cited +/- AND shooting as two examples of stats suggesting the idea he hurt the team was not far-fetched. You have A) ignored that I mentioned the shooting stats and B) interpreted my saying "it's not far-fetched that he might have done more harm than good" as my saying "I know he did more harm than good and know the team would have won if he sat out." I'm not sure if you're intentionally being difficult or you're just really having trouble understanding what I'm saying.

And in the case of those +/- stats, most of those players played with Melo on the court. So of course they had bad +/- #s. It's more revealing when you have *the lowest* plus/minus on the team. Nevertheless, that is just one of many stats to look at. I don't see any stats that would indicate Melo had a positive impact on that game.

+/- is a very tricky stat to try and use to draw conclusions with. I would bet that everyone who watched the game would praise Jennings for how he played (myself included). He was only a +2. Yet what exactly did Vujacic do for +7?

Did Melo play poorly? Yes. Was he a major contributor to the loss? Of course. Was he solely responsible for the loss (not saying that you said this, but others have insinuated it)? No. Would we have won the game if he sat? Impossible to determine, but (though admittedly this is an entirely different team this year) we were 0-10 last season when he didn't play.

LivingLegend wrote:

teamsport72 wrote:Am I the only one here seeing that Melo does not and never had what it takes to win? Please! Let him do his act of image making and smiling after bad mistakes whenever he's fresh and before a home crowd, he will still be able to come up big once in a while... do not make away games hinge on the princess :-) Those are winnable games, by the way...just not on a 5/30 shooting :-))

You are NOT alone my friend -- it's very obvious this cat doesn't have what it takes.

He only sees himself as someone special -- someone deserving special treatment, special privilege. Yes he can play in a team concept but only when he chooses and/or feels like it and god forbid don't anyone say anything negative about him or he will go into tank mode and start trying to get Horny fired.

Melo is like the little kid from the old Twilight Zone movie --- the kid who would send anyone to the corn field if they said anything he didn't like or if he didn't get his way. He will play how he likes, when he wants and with that no-trade clause there is nothing any Knick fan or Phil can do about it -- thanks Phil for that one.

TDKF7? Is that you?! Post with angenda much?

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Welpee wrote:

teamsport72 wrote:Do not dress Melo for second games of back-to-backs!
Especially, if on the road. Net negative value.
Make it look as a sign of respect for the veteran, like as if preserving his legs for the playoff run!
In his absence others can be expected to willingly put in that little extra effort which decides games like the one last night.
Will see if Hornacek figures this out as the season goes.

Yeah, because the 22 pts, 6 reb, and 2.5 assists he averages in the 2nd of back to back games is so easy to replace. Meanwhile KP averages only 16 ppg in the 2nd of back to backs and nobody says a word.

Yeah PPG is a great way to measure overall offensive production. I could get 22 in an NBA game if they let me shoot every single time down the court. That is Melo's philosophy as well. I'm going to get 20 points even if it takes 30 shots to get there. He has more talent around him now, he has no business shooting 25 times when he is that off. It was a brutal performance last night. He cost them the game. This is why the Knicks will always float around .500, Carmelo will have good nights and they win, followed by a ghastly performance giving them little to no chance of winning.

Melo was the reason we lost last night? smh!

Why is it so hard to believe that Melo did more harm than good in this game? He shot 7 of 25. The team was -16 with him on the court and +11 with him off the court (the worst plus minus on the team).

Let me post this disclaimer first: I am not saying anything negative about KP, just using him as an example of the selective use of advance stats:

KP is -18.3 in +/- in the 2nd game of back to back games. So does that mean he's hurting us?

It *might* mean he has hurt the team in 2nd games of back to backs. All I wrote was that the idea that Melo had hurt the team in that one game wasn't far-fetched. I'm sure Michael Jordan had games where he hurt his team too.

So Saturday night we would've been better off if Melo didn't play? Or in the Boston game when KP was -24 we would've been better if he didn't play?

Saturday if we didn't play Melo (-16), Lee (-15), Noah (-12), Rose (-9) and Willy (-8) and just played KP (0), O'Quinn (+13), Kuz (+2), Holiday (+11), Jennings (+2), and Vujacic (+7) you think we probably win?

I cited +/- AND shooting as two examples of stats suggesting the idea he hurt the team was not far-fetched. You have A) ignored that I mentioned the shooting stats and B) interpreted my saying "it's not far-fetched that he might have done more harm than good" as my saying "I know he did more harm than good and know the team would have won if he sat out." I'm not sure if you're intentionally being difficult or you're just really having trouble understanding what I'm saying.

And in the case of those +/- stats, most of those players played with Melo on the court. So of course they had bad +/- #s. It's more revealing when you have *the lowest* plus/minus on the team. Nevertheless, that is just one of many stats to look at. I don't see any stats that would indicate Melo had a positive impact on that game.

My problem is we only go through these type of exercises to slam Melo and most only do it to validate their predetermined hate for the guy. Melo had a bad game, nobody is disputing that. He was among a group of many players who didn't play well. But do you really believe we're better not having our best player on the floor even if he's not having a good game?

+/- is a very tricky stat to try and use to draw conclusions with. I would bet that everyone who watched the game would praise Jennings for how he played (myself included). He was only a +2. Yet what exactly did Vujacic do for +7?

Did Melo play poorly? Yes. Was he a major contributor to the loss? Of course. Was he solely responsible for the loss (not saying that you said this, but others have insinuated it)? No. Would we have won the game if he sat? Impossible to determine, but (though admittedly this is an entirely different team this year) we were 0-10 last season when he didn't play.

Nuff said.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:All I know is Bonn mentioned Melo and MJ in the same sentence, with some sort of nod to rough equivalence.

Nuff said.

No way! I would never do that. They were consecutive sentences.

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Welpee wrote:

teamsport72 wrote:Do not dress Melo for second games of back-to-backs!
Especially, if on the road. Net negative value.
Make it look as a sign of respect for the veteran, like as if preserving his legs for the playoff run!
In his absence others can be expected to willingly put in that little extra effort which decides games like the one last night.
Will see if Hornacek figures this out as the season goes.

Yeah, because the 22 pts, 6 reb, and 2.5 assists he averages in the 2nd of back to back games is so easy to replace. Meanwhile KP averages only 16 ppg in the 2nd of back to backs and nobody says a word.

Yeah PPG is a great way to measure overall offensive production. I could get 22 in an NBA game if they let me shoot every single time down the court. That is Melo's philosophy as well. I'm going to get 20 points even if it takes 30 shots to get there. He has more talent around him now, he has no business shooting 25 times when he is that off. It was a brutal performance last night. He cost them the game. This is why the Knicks will always float around .500, Carmelo will have good nights and they win, followed by a ghastly performance giving them little to no chance of winning.

Melo was the reason we lost last night? smh!

Why is it so hard to believe that Melo did more harm than good in this game? He shot 7 of 25. The team was -16 with him on the court and +11 with him off the court (the worst plus minus on the team).

Let me post this disclaimer first: I am not saying anything negative about KP, just using him as an example of the selective use of advance stats:

KP is -18.3 in +/- in the 2nd game of back to back games. So does that mean he's hurting us?

It *might* mean he has hurt the team in 2nd games of back to backs. All I wrote was that the idea that Melo had hurt the team in that one game wasn't far-fetched. I'm sure Michael Jordan had games where he hurt his team too.

So Saturday night we would've been better off if Melo didn't play? Or in the Boston game when KP was -24 we would've been better if he didn't play?

Saturday if we didn't play Melo (-16), Lee (-15), Noah (-12), Rose (-9) and Willy (-8) and just played KP (0), O'Quinn (+13), Kuz (+2), Holiday (+11), Jennings (+2), and Vujacic (+7) you think we probably win?

I cited +/- AND shooting as two examples of stats suggesting the idea he hurt the team was not far-fetched. You have A) ignored that I mentioned the shooting stats and B) interpreted my saying "it's not far-fetched that he might have done more harm than good" as my saying "I know he did more harm than good and know the team would have won if he sat out." I'm not sure if you're intentionally being difficult or you're just really having trouble understanding what I'm saying.

And in the case of those +/- stats, most of those players played with Melo on the court. So of course they had bad +/- #s. It's more revealing when you have *the lowest* plus/minus on the team. Nevertheless, that is just one of many stats to look at. I don't see any stats that would indicate Melo had a positive impact on that game.

My problem is we only go through these type of exercises to slam Melo and most only do it to validate their predetermined hate for the guy. Melo had a bad game, nobody is disputing that. He was among a group of many players who didn't play well. But do you really believe we're better not having our best player on the floor even if he's not having a good game?

+/- is a very tricky stat to try and use to draw conclusions with. I would bet that everyone who watched the game would praise Jennings for how he played (myself included). He was only a +2. Yet what exactly did Vujacic do for +7?

Did Melo play poorly? Yes. Was he a major contributor to the loss? Of course. Was he solely responsible for the loss (not saying that you said this, but others have insinuated it)? No. Would we have won the game if he sat? Impossible to determine, but (though admittedly this is an entirely different team this year) we were 0-10 last season when he didn't play.

You can definitely have a particular game where you would have been better off with a player - even if the guy is an all-star. That's not hatred for the guy. Any fan who thinks it's impossible for Melo to ever have a game where he hurts the team just has an idealized, out of touch view of the guy. Could James Harden ever have a game where he hurts his team? Steph Curry? KP? Of course, they could.

But the missing piece that is impossible to determine is this: are they hurting the team if at their worst they provide more than the guy who would've replace them in the lineup?

teamsport72 wrote:Another lazy back-of-back-to-back by the daddy. Agree, hard to scratch him against the Cavs... needs lots of resting and caressing.

This exercise is always entertaining.

Nalod wrote:Knicks win and Melo has 8 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 steals.
Isn't that a good stat line from a volume shooter who is having a rough nite and knicks a victory?

teamsport72 wrote:Horny listened and rested Melo (his numbers were becoming embarrasing). Melo sat out and came back ok. Way to go.

And it doesn't seem to bother you that we lost both games?