If the Knicks are ever going to learn the Triangle (which I'm increasingly
coming to doubt), he's invaluable . . .

Malcolm wrote:Let me simplify all of this anti-Vujacic nonsense.

There's exactly ONE player on the Knicks who knows how to play in the Triangle.

That player is Vujacic.

If the Knicks are ever going to learn the Triangle (which I'm increasingly
coming to doubt), he's invaluable . . .

The Knicks have been running the triangle 2 seasons now. They aren't learning it. They are actively running it. They don't need him for his triangle experience anymore. They do need him for his experience and leadership in general.

CrushAlot wrote:

fwk00 wrote:I'm also of the opinion that O'Quinn seems to be odd man out. My thought is that Phil will get a trade exception for him or a second-rounder.
IMO, Sasha and Lou are 14, 15 on this team. Likely that N'Dour and Randle make it to share 13. I think Baker is odd man out (likely DLeague).

Of course injuries can still factor in.

I have been really disappointed with O'Quinn. I agree that he seems like the odd man out but he did go to Europe with KP and Puerto Rico with Melo. Not sure that that should buy him a roster spot but it might count for something.

I was excited when the Knicks signed O'Quinn last year. I had high expectations that he'd develop nicely. I felt the same way about Seraphin.

From what I've seen of O'Quinn in the preseason, I remain disappointed. He just doesn't seem to fit on the court and he looks more awkward than anything else. I'm not even sure why. Some players have a nose for the ball, others don't. Sad thing is that I like him as a decent, hard-working player. But given what we've seen of HermanGomez, I don't see O'Quinn sticking.

I always defer to Jackson's loyalty to players when thinking about moves though. Sasha is one of his guys - I don't see him leaving. Whoever gets cut or traded will likely get a soft landing. Nothing cut-throat about Jackson's management.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I see Baker being a more valuable player for this team than Holiday at this point in time. If we can keep him in some way and let him play DL, I might do it. If someone tells me you can either have Holiday or Baker, and the guy you cut leaves the organization, I keep Baker. I would do the same if it was between Baker and Sasha, it it came down to it.

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

Where do you draw the line on number of undrafted rookies vs. players who have provided meaningful minutes for many years? You just can't fill a roster out with undrafted players who are having good training camps/summer leagues even if their upside is greater considering age. As a fan base, we have gotten carried away before. I think we have a few pretty good players in there, but i just don't see our last few spots all going to undrafted free agents.

why not, sasha and admunson prove to be complete garbage last yr.. undrafted players are out to prove themselves every single game, they take nothing for granted

Veteran presence is needed throughout the year. The rookies will play harder this time of year because they are fighting for their NBA lives. Vets will pace themselves and do things in the locker room and behind the scenes that you won't see on the court. There are other factors involved. There needs to be a good mix of younger players with upside and vets who you know will provide leadership and toughness when needed. This is how Vujacic and Amundson still make a living.

I agree, but I don't see that kind of leadership in sasha and admundson, I also don't hear any of the young players praise there leadership, like the guys were saying about melo on the Olympic team.

When kT, camby, Kidd, rasheed, and kmart were here, you would here the younger players praising their leadership. Sasha ain't no leader, and admundson is even worse. That doesn't mean they're worthless, they're solid professional role players with good character, but so is everyone on the roster (that are more talented)

You won't "see" that leadership. Players praise the leadership of stars and former stars because they are asked about it specifically. Most of the guys you mentioned fall into that category. And by all accounts, Sasha was credited with helping with Porzingis' adjustment to the league, and he seems to have adjusted very nicely.

So you can't see it, no one talks about, there is no measurement for it, but we assume its there. And it is cumulative in the sense that having Melo, Noah, Rose, Lee and Thomas are not enough vets. Moreover, Randle and Kuz who are both champions and MVPs in their last leagues need advice from a middling bench player who's claim to fame is guarding Kobe in practice? Come on. This argument is paper thin.

The only argument for Vujacic is that he is a vet. He was brought in to babysit KP last year. He did a good job. If the team thinks he needs another year. Fine. But I would expect KP to room with Willie this year. Making Sasha's utility that much less.

So, keeping Sasha comes down to one question for me. Does KP need him? With the diversity on this squad, I think the answer is no.

So if Sasha is a legit leader/positive example (you have acknowledged he is) how does it make sense that KP is the only one affected? There are 5 rookies on the roster. You don't think it makes it easier on Rose/Noah/Melo/Lee/Lance to have another pro in the mix? A guy who also knows how to bring it and make the most of his limited assets? Sasha is generally a PITA for opposing teams. Yea, he's not always effective but he almost always irritates the other squad with his spastic hustle... I get you don't value what Sasha has (experience) but it matters, and not just to one guy, to the other pros, to the coaches, to the young guys. Let them out play and out smart Sasha for those minutes. You guys make Sasha out to be a warm body, so you might as well get a prospect or "promising player" with upside to take the spot. Good in fantasy, short on reality.

1) I didn't acknowledge anything. I used the logical device of assuming your strongest argument to be true- that his presence alone is valuable -- rather than taking it at its weakest (which is the 11.1 PER which represents a below average player). Even being below average PER is acceptable as you must assume that 7.5 (I know) of the players on every squad are above average and 7.5 of the players are below average. All of that said, the concept of "veteran" presence is vague, ambiguous and possibly overstated as it is not quantified. Should the Red Sox bring Bill Buckner around for veteran presence? Roster spots are prime real estate. You need to earn that piece of pine with every ounce of your being. Sasha doesn't do it for me. The fact that he is a "veteran" a/k/a old, doesn't ring my doorbell. That argument carries merit with me where they are a) old and b) still useful. In his last year with the Knicks, Wallace had a PER of 16.7. Kidd had a PER of 13.5. Thomas had a PER of 13.7. All better than Vujacic. No one states that a middling veteran presence adds much more. We have that in Lance Thomas and Kyle O'Quinn already.

2) I do not think Sasha's presence does anything more for the team than Ron Baker's. I would argue that Baker (a/k/a Rudy) scrambling for loose balls, getting knocked over on screens and fighting to stay in front of his man while knocking down 3s could have a more positive effect. Its Effort vs Experience.

Regardless, here my words. Baker has $75k of guaranteed money. Vujacic has $1.4MM (possible only $957k is guaranteed). Business-wise, it is Vujacic's job to lose. He has to have a greater than 50% chance of keeping the job at that price differential. So, all my whining may be just rhetoric. But if I am GM, Baker beat Sasha out for that spot. There are not enough intangibles to overcome that point in my mind. Baker may never re-appear in this league making all my arguments look moot. But so much of the NBA (and life) is timing. Being in the right place at the right time. In that regard, I could see Baker signing with Toronto in two years with a contract akin to Landry Fields.

1) what is the highest level of team sports you ever played? Because your Bill Buckner comment tells me you simply cant grasp the value of a more experienced player, and if it doesn't play out in his PER or WS/48 or whatever number your looking it at it doesn't exist. Forget about sports, ANY team setting. How many rookies do you build a team with? Lance Thomas and Kyle OQuinn as your veteran presence? Sorry... are those players guards? Can they sub in as point guards? Have they won titles?

2) I know you don't. Your argument may be 100% true. It may also be true that if Jennings/Rose go down and you have Randle/Baker you are not putting them in position to succeed. Rookies lose confidence very quickly and if they didn't play well right away the Knicks would be really struggle. You see Sasha as a middling veteran. Maybe the coach/GM sees him as a pro who understands what it takes to win a title and what that environment is like. Again... maybe Ron Baker's hustle trumps that. Maybe it doesn't, but the right answer is to have both, which means Sasha stays and Baker/Randle have to fight their way on. So far so good for them. I am thrilled to see them play well. I also understand why Sasha is here as well. Its not just a middling veteran. Phil Jackson knows Sasha and if he thinks he adds value than there isn't much to discuss. Phil clearly values youth, he also values balance. Ive started a hardball team from scratch. I had more talent than I could manage. What I really wanted were some guys who just knew how to play better. You need balance.

I have no experience in team sports past high school. I am not sure that is indicative of anything. Specifically because I am not arguing against experience. I am arguing that Sasha's experience is mediocre at best. And this team has filled in the roster with better experience.

Second your definition of "rookie" is flawed and ethnocentrically challenged. You disavow all experience that is not NBA experience. Is Kuz really a rookie? Was Ichiro a "rookie"? It isnt like Sasha is Derek Jeter "Captain Intangible". He won a ring playing backup to Kobe averaging 8.6 minutes per game. Seriously, what major experience are we discussing? Lance and Kyle are our middling experience. You still have Melo, Noah, Rose and Lee as your prime vets. You want another puppy to put at the end of the bench to lap the rookies hands as they walk off the court? Eh. I'd bet a buck no one aigns Vujacic if he gets waived because his value is the same as a teddy bear with KP's name on it.

In terms of how many "rookies", I can easily say "how many vets". In my earliest posts I indicated (1) that none of our rookies are pure green rookies. Baker and Plumlee as the greenest are still 4 year college players. (2) Most of our "rookies" have championship pedigree in whichever league they were in (3) We are discussing the 15th spot in the order which, in all likelihood earns Baker a spot down in DLeague cause I can only suit 12. So, if we are talking about who sits at the end of the bench, name Sasha as a special assistant and sit him wherever you wish. He sits regardless.

So, what do I gain by optioning Baker to DLeague instead of waiving him? Control. Nothing more. Nothing. If you have a real handshake for that $75k guaranteed Baker is gonna play in Westchester for $25k, I have no objection at all. In fact, then Sasha's contract becomes trade filler to make any future deal work.

1) Sasha played very well last year, especially in the 2nd half
2) He's played in 550+ NBA games, 60+ playoff games, won a title, been to 2 NBA finals and was a key role player
3) Playing at Duke, Stanford or Lithuania for a few years doesnt equate to that NBA experience.
4) Phil already has a handful of rookies on the roster, so Sasha isnt keeping the Knicks from developing youth
5) Your arguement that our rookies arent that "green" is equally silly. They are undrafted FAs. That means before the Knicks came along nobody in the NBA wanted them.

So again... you just dont like Sasha. Phil does. Your inability or refusal to acknowledge that Sasha has value here doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Sorry man.

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Malcolm wrote:Let me simplify all of this anti-Vujacic nonsense.

There's exactly ONE player on the Knicks who knows how to play in the Triangle.

That player is Vujacic.

If the Knicks are ever going to learn the Triangle (which I'm increasingly
coming to doubt), he's invaluable . . .

Randle ran triangle at Stanford...second, Vujacic's impact in teaching the triangle was neglible last season. What indication is there that he has any impact in educating others?

Maybe ask Phil Jackson, the guy with all the rings who brought him back. Just because YOU dont see it doesnt mean it didnt happen or doesnt exist.

I saw it last year. The question is whether we need him this year. Again, not doubting what Phil 'might' do or 'will' do. This post is what what 'I' would do. I admit in the OP that Phil will likely keep Sasha over Baker. I just disagree.

But with all sincerity, adding this blanket 'veteran' experience should be measureable. We can simply look at his +/- with lineups. Arguably, every lineup should be better than with non veteran replacements. That would be a bit simplistic considering all the variables though.

fwk00 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fwk00 wrote:I'm also of the opinion that O'Quinn seems to be odd man out. My thought is that Phil will get a trade exception for him or a second-rounder.
IMO, Sasha and Lou are 14, 15 on this team. Likely that N'Dour and Randle make it to share 13. I think Baker is odd man out (likely DLeague).

Of course injuries can still factor in.

I have been really disappointed with O'Quinn. I agree that he seems like the odd man out but he did go to Europe with KP and Puerto Rico with Melo. Not sure that that should buy him a roster spot but it might count for something.

I was excited when the Knicks signed O'Quinn last year. I had high expectations that he'd develop nicely. I felt the same way about Seraphin.

From what I've seen of O'Quinn in the preseason, I remain disappointed. He just doesn't seem to fit on the court and he looks more awkward than anything else. I'm not even sure why. Some players have a nose for the ball, others don't. Sad thing is that I like him as a decent, hard-working player. But given what we've seen of HermanGomez, I don't see O'Quinn sticking.

I always defer to Jackson's loyalty to players when thinking about moves though. Sasha is one of his guys - I don't see him leaving. Whoever gets cut or traded will likely get a soft landing. Nothing cut-throat about Jackson's management.

WHO HAS HE EVER been loyal to, the roster has been purged every off season since he's been the head honcho. The only thing he's loyal to is the triangle, and he's finally losing his grip on that.

I don't have much of a problem with Phil, he's definitely trying, but lets not kid ourselves here, loyalty is not one of is better attributes.

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fwk00 wrote:I'm also of the opinion that O'Quinn seems to be odd man out. My thought is that Phil will get a trade exception for him or a second-rounder.
IMO, Sasha and Lou are 14, 15 on this team. Likely that N'Dour and Randle make it to share 13. I think Baker is odd man out (likely DLeague).

Of course injuries can still factor in.

I have been really disappointed with O'Quinn. I agree that he seems like the odd man out but he did go to Europe with KP and Puerto Rico with Melo. Not sure that that should buy him a roster spot but it might count for something.

I was excited when the Knicks signed O'Quinn last year. I had high expectations that he'd develop nicely. I felt the same way about Seraphin.

From what I've seen of O'Quinn in the preseason, I remain disappointed. He just doesn't seem to fit on the court and he looks more awkward than anything else. I'm not even sure why. Some players have a nose for the ball, others don't. Sad thing is that I like him as a decent, hard-working player. But given what we've seen of HermanGomez, I don't see O'Quinn sticking.

I always defer to Jackson's loyalty to players when thinking about moves though. Sasha is one of his guys - I don't see him leaving. Whoever gets cut or traded will likely get a soft landing. Nothing cut-throat about Jackson's management.

WHO HAS HE EVER been loyal to, the roster has been purged every off season since he's been the head honcho. The only thing he's loyal to is the triangle, and he's finally losing his grip on that.

I don't have much of a problem with Phil, he's definitely trying, but lets not kid ourselves here, loyalty is not one of is better attributes.

Purged? That's highly exaggerated. He's only been here a few years.

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm in a weird position with Baker, at least on this board. I see the value in Sasha - but - I would rather have Ron Baker on the team. He was really good in the NCAA tournament*s*. That matters to me. He can play. I remember him from 2014 versus Kentucky in the NCAA tournament... I agree that generally speaking stability and veteran savvy trumps "upside" when you're talking about the last spot on the roster. However, I really do think Baker should've been drafted and I really do think that he'd have been worth a late first / early second. I think he declined to play in the Portsmouth Invitational and that ultimately cost him because his team wasn't nearly as good last year.

EwingsGlass wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I see Baker being a more valuable player for this team than Holiday at this point in time. If we can keep him in some way and let him play DL, I might do it. If someone tells me you can either have Holiday or Baker, and the guy you cut leaves the organization, I keep Baker. I would do the same if it was between Baker and Sasha, it it came down to it.

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

Where do you draw the line on number of undrafted rookies vs. players who have provided meaningful minutes for many years? You just can't fill a roster out with undrafted players who are having good training camps/summer leagues even if their upside is greater considering age. As a fan base, we have gotten carried away before. I think we have a few pretty good players in there, but i just don't see our last few spots all going to undrafted free agents.

why not, sasha and admunson prove to be complete garbage last yr.. undrafted players are out to prove themselves every single game, they take nothing for granted

Veteran presence is needed throughout the year. The rookies will play harder this time of year because they are fighting for their NBA lives. Vets will pace themselves and do things in the locker room and behind the scenes that you won't see on the court. There are other factors involved. There needs to be a good mix of younger players with upside and vets who you know will provide leadership and toughness when needed. This is how Vujacic and Amundson still make a living.

I agree, but I don't see that kind of leadership in sasha and admundson, I also don't hear any of the young players praise there leadership, like the guys were saying about melo on the Olympic team.

When kT, camby, Kidd, rasheed, and kmart were here, you would here the younger players praising their leadership. Sasha ain't no leader, and admundson is even worse. That doesn't mean they're worthless, they're solid professional role players with good character, but so is everyone on the roster (that are more talented)

You won't "see" that leadership. Players praise the leadership of stars and former stars because they are asked about it specifically. Most of the guys you mentioned fall into that category. And by all accounts, Sasha was credited with helping with Porzingis' adjustment to the league, and he seems to have adjusted very nicely.

So you can't see it, no one talks about, there is no measurement for it, but we assume its there. And it is cumulative in the sense that having Melo, Noah, Rose, Lee and Thomas are not enough vets. Moreover, Randle and Kuz who are both champions and MVPs in their last leagues need advice from a middling bench player who's claim to fame is guarding Kobe in practice? Come on. This argument is paper thin.

The only argument for Vujacic is that he is a vet. He was brought in to babysit KP last year. He did a good job. If the team thinks he needs another year. Fine. But I would expect KP to room with Willie this year. Making Sasha's utility that much less.

So, keeping Sasha comes down to one question for me. Does KP need him? With the diversity on this squad, I think the answer is no.

So if Sasha is a legit leader/positive example (you have acknowledged he is) how does it make sense that KP is the only one affected? There are 5 rookies on the roster. You don't think it makes it easier on Rose/Noah/Melo/Lee/Lance to have another pro in the mix? A guy who also knows how to bring it and make the most of his limited assets? Sasha is generally a PITA for opposing teams. Yea, he's not always effective but he almost always irritates the other squad with his spastic hustle... I get you don't value what Sasha has (experience) but it matters, and not just to one guy, to the other pros, to the coaches, to the young guys. Let them out play and out smart Sasha for those minutes. You guys make Sasha out to be a warm body, so you might as well get a prospect or "promising player" with upside to take the spot. Good in fantasy, short on reality.

1) I didn't acknowledge anything. I used the logical device of assuming your strongest argument to be true- that his presence alone is valuable -- rather than taking it at its weakest (which is the 11.1 PER which represents a below average player). Even being below average PER is acceptable as you must assume that 7.5 (I know) of the players on every squad are above average and 7.5 of the players are below average. All of that said, the concept of "veteran" presence is vague, ambiguous and possibly overstated as it is not quantified. Should the Red Sox bring Bill Buckner around for veteran presence? Roster spots are prime real estate. You need to earn that piece of pine with every ounce of your being. Sasha doesn't do it for me. The fact that he is a "veteran" a/k/a old, doesn't ring my doorbell. That argument carries merit with me where they are a) old and b) still useful. In his last year with the Knicks, Wallace had a PER of 16.7. Kidd had a PER of 13.5. Thomas had a PER of 13.7. All better than Vujacic. No one states that a middling veteran presence adds much more. We have that in Lance Thomas and Kyle O'Quinn already.

2) I do not think Sasha's presence does anything more for the team than Ron Baker's. I would argue that Baker (a/k/a Rudy) scrambling for loose balls, getting knocked over on screens and fighting to stay in front of his man while knocking down 3s could have a more positive effect. Its Effort vs Experience.

Regardless, here my words. Baker has $75k of guaranteed money. Vujacic has $1.4MM (possible only $957k is guaranteed). Business-wise, it is Vujacic's job to lose. He has to have a greater than 50% chance of keeping the job at that price differential. So, all my whining may be just rhetoric. But if I am GM, Baker beat Sasha out for that spot. There are not enough intangibles to overcome that point in my mind. Baker may never re-appear in this league making all my arguments look moot. But so much of the NBA (and life) is timing. Being in the right place at the right time. In that regard, I could see Baker signing with Toronto in two years with a contract akin to Landry Fields.

1) what is the highest level of team sports you ever played? Because your Bill Buckner comment tells me you simply cant grasp the value of a more experienced player, and if it doesn't play out in his PER or WS/48 or whatever number your looking it at it doesn't exist. Forget about sports, ANY team setting. How many rookies do you build a team with? Lance Thomas and Kyle OQuinn as your veteran presence? Sorry... are those players guards? Can they sub in as point guards? Have they won titles?

2) I know you don't. Your argument may be 100% true. It may also be true that if Jennings/Rose go down and you have Randle/Baker you are not putting them in position to succeed. Rookies lose confidence very quickly and if they didn't play well right away the Knicks would be really struggle. You see Sasha as a middling veteran. Maybe the coach/GM sees him as a pro who understands what it takes to win a title and what that environment is like. Again... maybe Ron Baker's hustle trumps that. Maybe it doesn't, but the right answer is to have both, which means Sasha stays and Baker/Randle have to fight their way on. So far so good for them. I am thrilled to see them play well. I also understand why Sasha is here as well. Its not just a middling veteran. Phil Jackson knows Sasha and if he thinks he adds value than there isn't much to discuss. Phil clearly values youth, he also values balance. Ive started a hardball team from scratch. I had more talent than I could manage. What I really wanted were some guys who just knew how to play better. You need balance.

Agree completely. I just assume people who don't like Sasha completely bailed on the second half of last season (meaning didn't watch any games), when he was one of the best players on the team, and certainly the best guard hands down.

That team went 6 and 12. Superstar on a bad team in garbage games. Meh. We literally replaced every other guard on the team. Best of the worst argument doesn't do anything for me.

He wasn't a "superstar" (which really makes me think you weren't watching), he was a team player who played defense, ran the offense and hit 44% of his 3s after the all-star break. That's a decent 5th or 6th guard. It's good veteran leadership.

Bippity10 wrote:Word

You have been missed

reub wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I'm in a weird position with Baker, at least on this board. I see the value in Sasha - but - I would rather have Ron Baker on the team. He was really good in the NCAA tournament*s*. That matters to me. He can play. I remember him from 2014 versus Kentucky in the NCAA tournament... I agree that generally speaking stability and veteran savvy trumps "upside" when you're talking about the last spot on the roster. However, I really do think Baker should've been drafted and I really do think that he'd have been worth a late first / early second. I think he declined to play in the Portsmouth Invitational and that ultimately cost him because his team wasn't nearly as good last year.

When Baker hits shots he looks great. When he doesn't he looks pretty bad.

You could say the same about Melo.