Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek appears overjoyed the Knicks landed point guard Chasson Randle in August after he became July’s summer-league sensation in Orlando.

According to an NBA source, Randle chose the Knicks over Oklahoma City and signed to a partially guaranteed deal. That’s a good sign because Thunder general manager Sam Presti is considered one of the league’s top talent evaluators.

Randle, who played in the Czech Republic last season after going undrafted in 2015, is well on his way to earning a roster spot. He starred in Saturday’s preseason win over the Nets (14 points, 3 of 5 from 3-point range, three steals, two assists in 20 minutes). On Monday, in a 90-88 win, he got a key last-minute rebound and broke out on the fast break that led to a Marshall Plumlee stuff. He also created a jump ball, tying up John Wall on a drive, though he committed three turnovers.

It’s not over,” Randle said. “I can’t look too far ahead. Coming into training camp, I wanted to come in and be aggressive and bring a great attitude. I can’t look too far ahead, and I won’t.”

The signal of Hornacek’s affection for Randle, who ran the triangle at Stanford for coach Johnny Dawkins, is he praised his defensive skills most. Add Carmelo Anthony’s ringing endorsement and Randle looks like a keeper.

“He has a good understanding how to play it, where the shots are, but the bigger thing is he has great hands, gets low on defense,’’ Hornacek said Monday. “Offensively, he understands what’s going on, but defensively is where, as a point guard, it’s tough playing some of these guys, get over screens, does a great job getting his hands on balls, he recovers, got long arms. He may not be that tall, but he’s got long arms. He’s just a smooth player, doesn’t press, lets the game come to him.”

Randle will stick if Anthony has a say.

“I love him,” Anthony said. “I just love his poise out there, the way he controls the game, controls the basketball. He can push the pace. He can slow it down. I think you guys would love him, too, the more that you see him play.”

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

Not for some here. Some here don't understand that having 5-6 guys with zero NBA experience isn't a good thing. God forbid we lose a guy who had a good summer league game for a veteran who actually knows how to play... but since Sasha "isn't a good NBA player" he can be replaced by any college player with upside.

The best is when Phil is an idiot for letting NDour go (who looks very much like a Dleague player to me). Good thing is he can be a rookie again.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Cutting the useless Amundson and Vujacic (along with Tokoto) would ensure we hold onto all of our young, promising talent -- N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle AND Baker. Also agree with Eny -- with the emergence of Plumlee in a big way here, I'd shop O'Quinn to see what I could get (although it wouldn't be an immediate necessity as long as we cut Lou, Sasha and JP to make room for the 4 more important upside players)...One caveat for me though--still not convinced about Randle. He can shoot, I like what I've seen from that standpoint but I think we need to see him handle the ball more and run the offense for longer stretches to get a better feel for him. We really don't need another SG. We need a 3rd PG. Can Randle be that guy? Maybe. Let's see more of him in that role now. And forget this Sasha at the lead guard spot alongside another SG stuff. I don't care for that at all. If Rose continues to miss time, I wanna see Randle in as soon as Jennings needs a blow. Only way we're gonna find out. Guys like Spencer Dinwiddie, Cat Barber in Philly, etc., might become available at some point. To me, Randle needs to convince me that he's worth keeping over players like that.. And we need to see more Justin Holiday. This kid's a good player. 6'6", athletic, a good defender and he can shoot/score. His PT has decreased every game so far -- 18 mins against HOU, 10 against the Nets, then only 6 last night. I'd like to see that going in the other direction. He's clearly off right now, not comfortable. Let's get him right. He could help us. With Courtney Lee looking way out of sorts, I think it'd be a good idea to establish Holiday as a rotation 2G as early as possible. I'd like to see Holiday given a real long leash here. If he didn't work out after 25-30 games or so, then I'd turn to Baker. I'd be nice to have that depth at SG though. Lee's play concerns me so far.

Do you value veteran play at all or is it always as simple as who has the most upside with you? Coaches don't think veteran play is useless. This seems to be something you don't value at all and argue against with great fervor.

You're right -- in this particular case, yeah, I don't care for keeping Lou or Sasha at all over our 4 top promising young players. Absolutely. Keeping these two could put our chances of holding onto all 4 of these high upside guys at risk (what if we don't elect to keep one or two of N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle or Baker on the 15-man, they initially agree to go to Westchester but then someone comes along and offers them an NBA spot and more money? If you were their agent, would you advise them not to take that opportunity? I wouldn't. Now I see N'Dour and Plumlee already got guaranteed money, so maybe they would turn down another offer to stay in the mix for us at Westchester. Possibly. Maybe that's the new plan to circumvent things and keep guys in the fold. But Randle and Baker, as far as I know, don't have guaranteed contracts, only camp deals. Look what happened with Mark Cuban and N'Dour last summer. Dude swooped right in and stole him away. Why? Because money and a guaranteed spot (until he got hurt) was the name of the game...And not only that, but a real good agent that's been carefully observing Phil and the Knicks would warn his client all about Thanasis Antetokounmpo, how he elected to stay with the team at the DL level for awhile, only to never make it and how that could be viewed as a wasted opportunity. We're not talking about game-changing, rotation players here with Lou and Sasha anyway, right? We're talking about 2 guys that shouldn't even be playing. No doubt they've had a positive impact on some of the younger guys they've been around but I think there's more than enough of a veteran presence around to mentor guys. To me it boils down to this -- Lou/Sasha's 'mentoring' vs. ensuring we keep 4 promising players in the mix for the foreseeable future. I vote the latter. I understand Phil and the team might feel differently on this and I understand you do as well but this is how I feel, what I feel is important. You don't jeopardize keeping a promising young player because you consider Lou or Sasha a 'must have.' Neither one of those guys are 'must have' players. Not in my book.

Based on this roster Sasha is must have. Jennings/Rose both have injury/durability issues and you need a veteran guard that understands where to be and what the coach wants/needs. Sasha can do that and has value to this coaching staff. I don't really see how that is up for debate.

Lou I will give you. I don't see the point over someone like NDour or Plumlee based on our depth, but he's here for a reason. "Promising" is a pretty word, but we are talking about undrafted rookie FA types. These aren't promising. They are a dime a dozen. They are AAA players. The guys that break out from that talent pool are very very rare. The upside of these guys is you may find a useful role player in the rotation.

If you really think they are promising they should go to the dleague where they should dominate. I mean Langston Galloway is more promising than these guys were are talking about. You act like we are giving away blue chip players here. Promising = bottom of the barrel prospects.

Randle made Sasha expendable. Randle played triangle in 4 years at Stanford. Every argument you make here is versus Randle not anyone else. Those are Randle's minutes you are describing.

I picked Randle over Sasha. Then it became Baker or Sasha for the backup SG role / sharpshooter role. I think Baker brings 3&D where Sasha only brings 3. My analysis ended there.

Im sorry guys hate Sasha. He's got value here and serves a purpose. It seems when you (and fin) evaluate players/roles you don't give experience a consideration, but it matters, and it matters a lot. Its just not as simple as matching up various skills and then just saying "lets go with the young guy with upside."

5+ rookies on this roster. Sasha is the perfect fit. He's a veteran, plays both guard spots and has a ton of experience. When not being used he's shown to be a positive influence on the younger players as well. That's the value. Just because you don't value it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Cutting the useless Amundson and Vujacic (along with Tokoto) would ensure we hold onto all of our young, promising talent -- N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle AND Baker. Also agree with Eny -- with the emergence of Plumlee in a big way here, I'd shop O'Quinn to see what I could get (although it wouldn't be an immediate necessity as long as we cut Lou, Sasha and JP to make room for the 4 more important upside players)...One caveat for me though--still not convinced about Randle. He can shoot, I like what I've seen from that standpoint but I think we need to see him handle the ball more and run the offense for longer stretches to get a better feel for him. We really don't need another SG. We need a 3rd PG. Can Randle be that guy? Maybe. Let's see more of him in that role now. And forget this Sasha at the lead guard spot alongside another SG stuff. I don't care for that at all. If Rose continues to miss time, I wanna see Randle in as soon as Jennings needs a blow. Only way we're gonna find out. Guys like Spencer Dinwiddie, Cat Barber in Philly, etc., might become available at some point. To me, Randle needs to convince me that he's worth keeping over players like that.. And we need to see more Justin Holiday. This kid's a good player. 6'6", athletic, a good defender and he can shoot/score. His PT has decreased every game so far -- 18 mins against HOU, 10 against the Nets, then only 6 last night. I'd like to see that going in the other direction. He's clearly off right now, not comfortable. Let's get him right. He could help us. With Courtney Lee looking way out of sorts, I think it'd be a good idea to establish Holiday as a rotation 2G as early as possible. I'd like to see Holiday given a real long leash here. If he didn't work out after 25-30 games or so, then I'd turn to Baker. I'd be nice to have that depth at SG though. Lee's play concerns me so far.

Do you value veteran play at all or is it always as simple as who has the most upside with you? Coaches don't think veteran play is useless. This seems to be something you don't value at all and argue against with great fervor.

You're right -- in this particular case, yeah, I don't care for keeping Lou or Sasha at all over our 4 top promising young players. Absolutely. Keeping these two could put our chances of holding onto all 4 of these high upside guys at risk (what if we don't elect to keep one or two of N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle or Baker on the 15-man, they initially agree to go to Westchester but then someone comes along and offers them an NBA spot and more money? If you were their agent, would you advise them not to take that opportunity? I wouldn't. Now I see N'Dour and Plumlee already got guaranteed money, so maybe they would turn down another offer to stay in the mix for us at Westchester. Possibly. Maybe that's the new plan to circumvent things and keep guys in the fold. But Randle and Baker, as far as I know, don't have guaranteed contracts, only camp deals. Look what happened with Mark Cuban and N'Dour last summer. Dude swooped right in and stole him away. Why? Because money and a guaranteed spot (until he got hurt) was the name of the game...And not only that, but a real good agent that's been carefully observing Phil and the Knicks would warn his client all about Thanasis Antetokounmpo, how he elected to stay with the team at the DL level for awhile, only to never make it and how that could be viewed as a wasted opportunity. We're not talking about game-changing, rotation players here with Lou and Sasha anyway, right? We're talking about 2 guys that shouldn't even be playing. No doubt they've had a positive impact on some of the younger guys they've been around but I think there's more than enough of a veteran presence around to mentor guys. To me it boils down to this -- Lou/Sasha's 'mentoring' vs. ensuring we keep 4 promising players in the mix for the foreseeable future. I vote the latter. I understand Phil and the team might feel differently on this and I understand you do as well but this is how I feel, what I feel is important. You don't jeopardize keeping a promising young player because you consider Lou or Sasha a 'must have.' Neither one of those guys are 'must have' players. Not in my book.

Based on this roster Sasha is must have. Jennings/Rose both have injury/durability issues and you need a veteran guard that understands where to be and what the coach wants/needs. Sasha can do that and has value to this coaching staff. I don't really see how that is up for debate.

Lou I will give you. I don't see the point over someone like NDour or Plumlee based on our depth, but he's here for a reason. "Promising" is a pretty word, but we are talking about undrafted rookie FA types. These aren't promising. They are a dime a dozen. They are AAA players. The guys that break out from that talent pool are very very rare. The upside of these guys is you may find a useful role player in the rotation.

If you really think they are promising they should go to the dleague where they should dominate. I mean Langston Galloway is more promising than these guys were are talking about. You act like we are giving away blue chip players here. Promising = bottom of the barrel prospects.

Randle made Sasha expendable. Randle played triangle in 4 years at Stanford. Every argument you make here is versus Randle not anyone else. Those are Randle's minutes you are describing.

I picked Randle over Sasha. Then it became Baker or Sasha for the backup SG role / sharpshooter role. I think Baker brings 3&D where Sasha only brings 3. My analysis ended there.

Randle and Baker have proven nothing on the NBA level. A couple decent preseason or summer league games does not make you an NBA veteran. How do they respond when their shot isn't falling or when they are having confidence issues? This is a case of clear emotional attachment... good story, everyone wants to root for the young guy who makes it, then helps the team win. If Sasha helps the team win its boring and he will never be anything more than Sasha, what fun is that?

Im sorry guys hate Sasha. He's got value here and serves a purpose. It seems when you (and fin) evaluate players/roles you don't give experience a consideration, but it matters, and it matters a lot. Its just not as simple as matching up various skills and then just saying "lets go with the young guy with upside."

5+ rookies on this roster. Sasha is the perfect fit. He's a veteran, plays both guard spots and has a ton of experience. When not being used he's shown to be a positive influence on the younger players as well. That's the value. Just because you don't value it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I give value to experience at the top of the rotation. I give higher value to upside and growth potential at the bottom of the roster. I am discussing 15th man. Not the starting SG position.

You call 5+ rookies. Baker is a 4 year player. Plumlee is a 4 year player. Randle played 4 years + 1 overseas. Ndour has played overseas. Hernangomez played professional overseas. Kuz played overseas.

Not exactly straight of prep school rookies.

Not to pen you into a position, but what makes you think Sasha does anything psychologically. Maybe putting KP in the role of big brother will help him develop more. I don't know.

But the intangible benefits you give Sasha are amorphous benefits that you give to an entire class of veterans.

The real question is, how many vets do you need? Serious question.

I'm looking for lightning in a bottle with these new guys. Maybe one is the next John Starks.

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I see Baker being a more valuable player for this team than Holiday at this point in time. If we can keep him in some way and let him play DL, I might do it. If someone tells me you can either have Holiday or Baker, and the guy you cut leaves the organization, I keep Baker. I would do the same if it was between Baker and Sasha, it it came down to it.

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

Where do you draw the line on number of undrafted rookies vs. players who have provided meaningful minutes for many years? You just can't fill a roster out with undrafted players who are having good training camps/summer leagues even if their upside is greater considering age. As a fan base, we have gotten carried away before. I think we have a few pretty good players in there, but i just don't see our last few spots all going to undrafted free agents.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I see Baker being a more valuable player for this team than Holiday at this point in time. If we can keep him in some way and let him play DL, I might do it. If someone tells me you can either have Holiday or Baker, and the guy you cut leaves the organization, I keep Baker. I would do the same if it was between Baker and Sasha, it it came down to it.

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

Where do you draw the line on number of undrafted rookies vs. players who have provided meaningful minutes for many years? You just can't fill a roster out with undrafted players who are having good training camps/summer leagues even if their upside is greater considering age. As a fan base, we have gotten carried away before. I think we have a few pretty good players in there, but i just don't see our last few spots all going to undrafted free agents.

why not, sasha and admunson prove to be complete garbage last yr.. undrafted players are out to prove themselves every single game, they take nothing for granted

Veteran presence is needed throughout the year. The rookies will play harder this time of year because they are fighting for their NBA lives. Vets will pace themselves and do things in the locker room and behind the scenes that you won't see on the court. There are other factors involved. There needs to be a good mix of younger players with upside and vets who you know will provide leadership and toughness when needed. This is how Vujacic and Amundson still make a living.

Knixkik wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle, Plumlee, Vujacic, NDour, and Holiday probably make it. Amundson and Tokoto almost definitely get cut. Baker could replace Vujacic if they value his upside, but i think its more likely he ends up on the DLeague team for at least this season. Probably replaces Vujacic next year. If you have Baker, then you have 6 rookies on the roster, and i don't see that happening at this point. 5 is a lot as it is.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

I see Baker being a more valuable player for this team than Holiday at this point in time. If we can keep him in some way and let him play DL, I might do it. If someone tells me you can either have Holiday or Baker, and the guy you cut leaves the organization, I keep Baker. I would do the same if it was between Baker and Sasha, it it came down to it.

I feel the same way about Plumlee over O'Quinn, although I would love to see O'Quinn step it up and prove me wrong.

Where do you draw the line on number of undrafted rookies vs. players who have provided meaningful minutes for many years? You just can't fill a roster out with undrafted players who are having good training camps/summer leagues even if their upside is greater considering age. As a fan base, we have gotten carried away before. I think we have a few pretty good players in there, but i just don't see our last few spots all going to undrafted free agents.

Good question. I don't really have an answer. For me, I prefer an 8 or 9 man rotation. I consolidate as much value there as possible. You need some depth past the 8 or 9.. obviously all 12 should be functional. But, with the 13, 14 and 15th IR spots, I see no reason those can't be reaches.

I think I have 12 deep with rotation type players, easy. So, those last 3 spots are available to reach and try and get some franchise growth. I see no upside in Sasha other than verteran presence. But the others may have decent trade value.

Sasha has a career PER of 11. NBA average is around 15. In my mind, he is a below average player. I would rather start with a decent player with upside than a 31 year old below average player.

More, I just like Baker more.

Kemet wrote:Guards ...
1-Rose
2-Jenning
3-Randle = combo-guard
4-Lee
5-Holiday
6-Sasha = Veteran experience SG

SF ...
7-Melo at the PF position has made us LOSERS 5 seasons out of 6 season!
8-Lance = veteran experience SF
9-N'Dour

PF ...
10-KP = is 7.3 KP a forward?
11-Quinn is a natural PF
12-Willie is a natural PF
13-Lou = Veteran experience PF

Center ..
14-Noah = High IQ Leadership player
15-Plumlee

Kuz getting DNP vs Wizard game, Baker and Tokoto cant touch Jimmer skills.

Need to keep Kuz over Lou any day. Kuz looked good in limited time.