EnySpree wrote:KOQ is the one guy I will let go. With Willy, Ndour and Plumlee back there KOQ is just not bringing anything they aren't. He's making errors out there that a veteran shouldn't make. He plays like a rookie. I would try to pawn him for a draft pick if possible.

fishmike wrote:So if I have the breakdown right its these 8:
Randle, Plumlee, Ndour, Holiday, Baker, Sasha, Lou, Tokoto
For 5 spots right?

EwingsGlass, I disagree about your comments on Sasha. People around here really dismiss the value of veterans and what they bring to the table. Its just not as simple as shooting, passing and boxing out. Experience means something and Sasha brings plenty to the table. I am not looking for him to play big rotation minutes, but he's a guy who can perform in spot duty, a spot start and fill in important gaps. Everyone always wants to see a young guy take those minutes and blossom into something special... I get it. Those are good stories, but you need to solid veteran play. It may not be sexy but its important.

I think Sasha and Randle are shoe ins. I think Lou makes it also, they like him. I think Plumlee, NDour and Tokoto are DLeague material. I have not seen enough of Holiday to figure out where he fits. He hasn't played well, but I know many of the Chi fans were high on him. Time will tell.. he may be a casualty.

I think we NEED Sasha and Randle.
I think Lou and Holiday are on the opening day roster because of contracts or roster makeup.
I think NDour, Baker, Plumlee and Tokoto are perfect DLeague guys and should be getting minutes there and waiting for a call up. Of those 4 I have Baker as the highest probability to make it. He's got a 6'10 wingspan and has been shooting it well... I think they have been high on him for some time.

KP seems to have benefited from Sasha's mentorship. We have a few more rookies from Europe, not a bad idea to keep him around at least as a big brother. Sasha is the only one with a ring. Dont want Sasha however to take so many minutes from the rooks that it defeats the purpose of keeping him around.

I would get rid of KOQ. I thought O'Quinn going to Europe to work out with KP would have helped chemistry, but I don't see O'Quinn doing anything to help get Porzingis going, looks like it was just an angle to keep his job. As I said, having one of the longest wingspans in the league dont mean much if you have no vertical.

Finestrg wrote:Cutting the useless Amundson and Vujacic (along with Tokoto) would ensure we hold onto all of our young, promising talent -- N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle AND Baker. Also agree with Eny -- with the emergence of Plumlee in a big way here, I'd shop O'Quinn to see what I could get (although it wouldn't be an immediate necessity as long as we cut Lou, Sasha and JP to make room for the 4 more important upside players)...One caveat for me though--still not convinced about Randle. He can shoot, I like what I've seen from that standpoint but I think we need to see him handle the ball more and run the offense for longer stretches to get a better feel for him. We really don't need another SG. We need a 3rd PG. Can Randle be that guy? Maybe. Let's see more of him in that role now. And forget this Sasha at the lead guard spot alongside another SG stuff. I don't care for that at all. If Rose continues to miss time, I wanna see Randle in as soon as Jennings needs a blow. Only way we're gonna find out. Guys like Spencer Dinwiddie, Cat Barber in Philly, etc., might become available at some point. To me, Randle needs to convince me that he's worth keeping over players like that.. And we need to see more Justin Holiday. This kid's a good player. 6'6", athletic, a good defender and he can shoot/score. His PT has decreased every game so far -- 18 mins against HOU, 10 against the Nets, then only 6 last night. I'd like to see that going in the other direction. He's clearly off right now, not comfortable. Let's get him right. He could help us. With Courtney Lee looking way out of sorts, I think it'd be a good idea to establish Holiday as a rotation 2G as early as possible. I'd like to see Holiday given a real long leash here. If he didn't work out after 25-30 games or so, then I'd turn to Baker. I'd be nice to have that depth at SG though. Lee's play concerns me so far.

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Cutting the useless Amundson and Vujacic (along with Tokoto) would ensure we hold onto all of our young, promising talent -- N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle AND Baker. Also agree with Eny -- with the emergence of Plumlee in a big way here, I'd shop O'Quinn to see what I could get (although it wouldn't be an immediate necessity as long as we cut Lou, Sasha and JP to make room for the 4 more important upside players)...One caveat for me though--still not convinced about Randle. He can shoot, I like what I've seen from that standpoint but I think we need to see him handle the ball more and run the offense for longer stretches to get a better feel for him. We really don't need another SG. We need a 3rd PG. Can Randle be that guy? Maybe. Let's see more of him in that role now. And forget this Sasha at the lead guard spot alongside another SG stuff. I don't care for that at all. If Rose continues to miss time, I wanna see Randle in as soon as Jennings needs a blow. Only way we're gonna find out. Guys like Spencer Dinwiddie, Cat Barber in Philly, etc., might become available at some point. To me, Randle needs to convince me that he's worth keeping over players like that.. And we need to see more Justin Holiday. This kid's a good player. 6'6", athletic, a good defender and he can shoot/score. His PT has decreased every game so far -- 18 mins against HOU, 10 against the Nets, then only 6 last night. I'd like to see that going in the other direction. He's clearly off right now, not comfortable. Let's get him right. He could help us. With Courtney Lee looking way out of sorts, I think it'd be a good idea to establish Holiday as a rotation 2G as early as possible. I'd like to see Holiday given a real long leash here. If he didn't work out after 25-30 games or so, then I'd turn to Baker. I'd be nice to have that depth at SG though. Lee's play concerns me so far.

Do you value veteran play at all or is it always as simple as who has the most upside with you? Coaches don't think veteran play is useless. This seems to be something you don't value at all and argue against with great fervor.

You're right -- in this particular case, yeah, I don't care for keeping Lou or Sasha at all over our 4 top promising young players. Absolutely. Keeping these two could put our chances of holding onto all 4 of these high upside guys at risk (what if we don't elect to keep one or two of N'Dour, Plumlee, Randle or Baker on the 15-man, they initially agree to go to Westchester but then someone comes along and offers them an NBA spot and more money? If you were their agent, would you advise them not to take that opportunity? I wouldn't. Now I see N'Dour and Plumlee already got guaranteed money, so maybe they would turn down another offer to stay in the mix for us at Westchester. Possibly. Maybe that's the new plan to circumvent things and keep guys in the fold. But Randle and Baker, as far as I know, don't have guaranteed contracts, only camp deals. Look what happened with Mark Cuban and N'Dour last summer. Dude swooped right in and stole him away. Why? Because money and a guaranteed spot (until he got hurt) was the name of the game...And not only that, but a real good agent that's been carefully observing Phil and the Knicks would warn his client all about Thanasis Antetokounmpo, how he elected to stay with the team at the DL level for awhile, only to never make it and how that could be viewed as a wasted opportunity. We're not talking about game-changing, rotation players here with Lou and Sasha anyway, right? We're talking about 2 guys that shouldn't even be playing. No doubt they've had a positive impact on some of the younger guys they've been around but I think there's more than enough of a veteran presence around to mentor guys. To me it boils down to this -- Lou/Sasha's 'mentoring' vs. ensuring we keep 4 promising players in the mix for the foreseeable future. I vote the latter. I understand Phil and the team might feel differently on this and I understand you do as well but this is how I feel, what I feel is important. You don't jeopardize keeping a promising young player because you consider Lou or Sasha a 'must have.' Neither one of those guys are 'must have' players. Not in my book.

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:So if I have the breakdown right its these 8:
Randle, Plumlee, Ndour, Holiday, Baker, Sasha, Lou, Tokoto
For 5 spots right?

EwingsGlass, I disagree about your comments on Sasha. People around here really dismiss the value of veterans and what they bring to the table. Its just not as simple as shooting, passing and boxing out. Experience means something and Sasha brings plenty to the table. I am not looking for him to play big rotation minutes, but he's a guy who can perform in spot duty, a spot start and fill in important gaps. Everyone always wants to see a young guy take those minutes and blossom into something special... I get it. Those are good stories, but you need to solid veteran play. It may not be sexy but its important.

I think Sasha and Randle are shoe ins. I think Lou makes it also, they like him. I think Plumlee, NDour and Tokoto are DLeague material. I have not seen enough of Holiday to figure out where he fits. He hasn't played well, but I know many of the Chi fans were high on him. Time will tell.. he may be a casualty.

I think we NEED Sasha and Randle.
I think Lou and Holiday are on the opening day roster because of contracts or roster makeup.
I think NDour, Baker, Plumlee and Tokoto are perfect DLeague guys and should be getting minutes there and waiting for a call up. Of those 4 I have Baker as the highest probability to make it. He's got a 6'10 wingspan and has been shooting it well... I think they have been high on him for some time.

KP seems to have benefited from Sasha's mentorship. We have a few more rookies from Europe, not a bad idea to keep him around at least as a big brother. Sasha is the only one with a ring. Dont want Sasha however to take so many minutes from the rooks that it defeats the purpose of keeping him around.

I would get rid of KOQ. I thought O'Quinn going to Europe to work out with KP would have helped chemistry, but I don't see O'Quinn doing anything to help get Porzingis going, looks like it was just an angle to keep his job. As I said, having one of the longest wingspans in the league dont mean much if you have no vertical.

See, that role of big brother can be accomplished by calling him a Special Assistant (if and only if he sees this as the end of his career). Same goes for Lou. They do not need a roster spot to do what they do. So, I look at Baker and have the pre-season giddy that makes me see him like a solid 3&D for an entire career. Then I see Sasha who, can stick around for another year or two. Maybe I have Baker wrong, but that kid can stroke it. And he plays with fire. Seeing him get knocked down on a screen and instead of acting upset for the refs, he hustled his tail off to get back to his guy. THAT is what I want on my team. Charlie Ward style grit.

SupremeCommander wrote:here's my list:

Plumlee, Ndour, Baker, Randle, Holiday(, Sasha)

that's also ranked. I think Sasha should get cut but I do know he "understands the triangle" so maybe that gives him an edge. But if this is a merit based thing Plumlee easily gets in, Ndour should too because I'm giving him credit for last year, Baker has the highest upside, Randle is getting slurped in the media by the high profile guys, and Holiday just got traded for and seemingly is a better fit than Sasha.

Agreed. I have Sasha (and Lou) clearly behind those 5 players. Not even close. But where I do agree with fishmike -- I do think Sasha makes the team. Not because I think he deserves it but because Phil thinks he does. I could live with that if we get to keep all 4 young players in the mix with one or two agreeing to play for Westchester. Again, no guarantees there, though.

C Noah/Hermangomez/Plumlee
PF Porzingis/O'Quinn/NDour
SF Anthony/Thomas/Kuzminskas
SG Lee/Holiday/Vujacic
PG Rose/Jennings/Randle

Finestrg wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:So if I have the breakdown right its these 8:
Randle, Plumlee, Ndour, Holiday, Baker, Sasha, Lou, Tokoto
For 5 spots right?

EwingsGlass, I disagree about your comments on Sasha. People around here really dismiss the value of veterans and what they bring to the table. Its just not as simple as shooting, passing and boxing out. Experience means something and Sasha brings plenty to the table. I am not looking for him to play big rotation minutes, but he's a guy who can perform in spot duty, a spot start and fill in important gaps. Everyone always wants to see a young guy take those minutes and blossom into something special... I get it. Those are good stories, but you need to solid veteran play. It may not be sexy but its important.

I think Sasha and Randle are shoe ins. I think Lou makes it also, they like him. I think Plumlee, NDour and Tokoto are DLeague material. I have not seen enough of Holiday to figure out where he fits. He hasn't played well, but I know many of the Chi fans were high on him. Time will tell.. he may be a casualty.

I think we NEED Sasha and Randle.
I think Lou and Holiday are on the opening day roster because of contracts or roster makeup.
I think NDour, Baker, Plumlee and Tokoto are perfect DLeague guys and should be getting minutes there and waiting for a call up. Of those 4 I have Baker as the highest probability to make it. He's got a 6'10 wingspan and has been shooting it well... I think they have been high on him for some time.

KP seems to have benefited from Sasha's mentorship. We have a few more rookies from Europe, not a bad idea to keep him around at least as a big brother. Sasha is the only one with a ring. Dont want Sasha however to take so many minutes from the rooks that it defeats the purpose of keeping him around.

I would get rid of KOQ. I thought O'Quinn going to Europe to work out with KP would have helped chemistry, but I don't see O'Quinn doing anything to help get Porzingis going, looks like it was just an angle to keep his job. As I said, having one of the longest wingspans in the league dont mean much if you have no vertical.

See, that role of big brother can be accomplished by calling him a Special Assistant (if and only if he sees this as the end of his career). Same goes for Lou. They do not need a roster spot to do what they do. So, I look at Baker and have the pre-season giddy that makes me see him like a solid 3&D for an entire career. Then I see Sasha who, can stick around for another year or two. Maybe I have Baker wrong, but that kid can stroke it. And he plays with fire. Seeing him get knocked down on a screen and instead of acting upset for the refs, he hustled his tail off to get back to his guy. THAT is what I want on my team. Charlie Ward style grit.

Exactly. Great points. We're not even running pure triangle anyway. This is a new system for everyone, including Sasha Vujacic. And let's be frank here--dude's not even a good NBA player anymore. Hasn't been for some time. And not only that, I can see him getting torched in a reserve 3rd PG role if that's really what the team is envisioning with him (I want a legit 3rd PG in that role, ready to go if need be, not a washed up SG that was never really a good player to begin with playing out of position). And as a 2G--does anyone really want to see him playing over Justin Holiday or if Holiday doesn't work out after given a legit chance, Ron Baker? Not me...And no, you're not wrong on Baker btw. He clearly looks like a keeper. So let's make sure we keep him!

I wouldnt be opposed to Sasha joining the coaching staff but thats not likely to happen this season. Could care less about the Triangle, I believe Sasha is a good mentor regardless of the offense. Even if he rides the bench, Vujavic can have a positive impact on the development of the rooks. Hope KOQ is moved. When he isnt hitting his jumpers, the rest of his game isnt good enough to justify him being on the floor for long. Would rather give Plumlee or Willy his minutes.