dk7th wrote:my take on things is that hornacek wants the point guards to get acclimated and find a balance between pushing the ball and setting up "an" offense, but frankly the offense looked incoherent. hopefully hornacek permitted them to "just play" so that he would have some film to go over with the team. for instance, for a guy who says he wants to be more of a ball sharer and facilitator, rose took the most shots last night, including a couple of bad shots and several trick shots that he happened to make. his fans applaud these sorts of acrobatics but i'd like him to cut down on both, and work on maintaining his dribble. also, he leaves his feet to pass the ball every god damned time! that shyt has to stop. my overall impression of rose is that he had an afflalo-esque effect on the game. his defense was atrocious and his bad shots led to scores on the other end a lot, ie he was a momentum changer in a negative way.

next game, after extensive film sessions, i expect to see more coherence. last night was hard to watch.

Agree with this. And I am willing to be patient while Hornacek let's them play to assess what he has in the preseason. But our defense was putrid and the usual excuses don't work there. There is no reason why they can't play a real structured and disciplined defense. Rose talking too many shots and Melo not passing are not things I wad looking forward to.

newyorker4ever wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I'm loving Rose and Jennings getting into the paint. Not enjoying the rate at which they are finishing in the paint. Missed layups and floaters. Not drawing ccontact. Its early still.

It's our first game. Learning new offense, new coach. New players. It will take some time. They are getting good shots--just missing.

Some people just don't get it.

Finishing layups has very little to do with learning the offense, new coach or new players. It can get easier by spreading the floor. It might have just been a bad game. Or Nene's stifling defense. And I acknowledge that it is early specifically when I say "Its early still".

That said, for Rose in particular, I am paying attention to this issue because his stats showed this was an issue last season as well - going 1/13 on layups in March. Not finishing well in the paint. So, if a guy was having trouble converting layups last year it is relevant that he starts the pre-season still missing layups? Maybe. Maybe not. Worth noting.

For me, the question is 'why is he missing layups'? Is it just an off night? Is he just working out the kinks? Or is he shying away from contact and releasing the ball early from odd release point? Who knows. I don't know the answer. Not writing off the season. Just making an observation.

EwingsGlass wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I'm loving Rose and Jennings getting into the paint. Not enjoying the rate at which they are finishing in the paint. Missed layups and floaters. Not drawing ccontact. Its early still.

It's our first game. Learning new offense, new coach. New players. It will take some time. They are getting good shots--just missing.

Some people just don't get it.

Finishing layups has very little to do with learning the offense, new coach or new players. It can get easier by spreading the floor. It might have just been a bad game. Or Nene's stifling defense. And I acknowledge that it is early specifically when I say "Its early still".

That said, for Rose in particular, I am paying attention to this issue because his stats showed this was an issue last season as well - going 1/13 on layups in March. Not finishing well in the paint. So, if a guy was having trouble converting layups last year it is relevant that he starts the pre-season still missing layups? Maybe. Maybe not. Worth noting.

For me, the question is 'why is he missing layups'? Is it just an off night? Is he just working out the kinks? Or is he shying away from contact and releasing the ball early from odd release point? Who knows. I don't know the answer. Not writing off the season. Just making an observation.

the "layups" he is attempting are mostly borderline circus shots, where he's relying on his athleticism to convert them, but also risks getting injured yet again. and they end up being lower percentage shots, as you noted. the trouble is that he leaves his feet too soon and commits instead of maintaining another dribble or two, which could lead to a pocket pass to a cutting big man for the finish. crazymadups mentioned that once the big men get used to these shots, they'll be in position to rebound and convert them. i don't know about that. i'd rather see him make assists to them by making pocket passes, which requires him to maintain his dribble-- even making one more dribble would be dramatic. meantime, he is only shooting 50% at that distance-- does anybody see anything wrong with that? i sure do. he needs to convert 60% of those "layups" in order to justify taking them in the first place.

and then there's his atrocious defense. i have pointed out all summer how bad his defensive plus-minus is-- we got a sobering dose of that last night.

Malcolm wrote:It's time for . . . a Jackson/Rambis Triangle workshop (!)

Hell, it was time for it 3 weeks ago.

Last night, Knicks would run the Triangle for its first and
second levels . . . and then everyone was standing around
looking lost after that.

And I still don't see ANYTHING that suggests Rose will be a
Triangle PG . . . or that he is trying to become one.

how many seconds does it take to run the "first and second levels"? six seconds? eight seconds?

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:My 2 cents...

1. We are going to miss RoLo. his defense, box out and wonderful picks will be missed. Hopefully, Noah can provide it.
2. Rose and Jennings are bad defensively. Courtney Lee is a very good perimeter defender. He will need to guard the better penetrating guard.
3. Melo looks tired. He just needs to get his second wind.
4. Willy has a high BBall IQ. He is a little slow footed. He reminds me a lot of Tiago Splitter.
5. We got a lot of open shots due to Rose and Jennings penetrating. Hopefully, those will fall soon.
6. Kuz is a player. He needs to be in the rotation.
7. Same with NDour.
8. Holiday looks unsure and rail thin. Was hoping he would show more.
9. OQuinn does not fit this team. He needs to be traded for some guard help.
10. Lance looks good.
11. The basketball gods has finally smile on us for KP.

My take on the rotation..

Starting 5...
Rose, Lee, Melo, KP, Noah

Rotation
Jennings, Kuz, NDour, Willy, Lance *** Lance and Kuz will need to play some SG.

The rest...
OQuinn, Plumlee, Baker, Holiday,Sasha

CUT..
Randle, Tokoto, Admunson

I agree with everything except I think Randle needs to stay with the team and we should cut and D league stash Baker.

same.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:It's time for . . . a Jackson/Rambis Triangle workshop (!)

Hell, it was time for it 3 weeks ago.

Last night, Knicks would run the Triangle for its first and
second levels . . . and then everyone was standing around
looking lost after that.

And I still don't see ANYTHING that suggests Rose will be a
Triangle PG . . . or that he is trying to become one.

Why would the Knicks expect Rose to be a typical Triangle PG? That's not his game. Of all the PG's Phil had which of them were like Rose? This is going to be different in a lot of ways and Phil did this on purpose. Neither Rose nor Jennings are the typical Phil PG. They are closer to the kind of PG's Hornacek has had success with.

and this will be the source of the knicks' underachievement. you can't sit between two stools.

But Uncle Phil may need to step up here and get into Rose's head somehow . . .

dk7th wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I'm loving Rose and Jennings getting into the paint. Not enjoying the rate at which they are finishing in the paint. Missed layups and floaters. Not drawing ccontact. Its early still.

It's our first game. Learning new offense, new coach. New players. It will take some time. They are getting good shots--just missing.

Some people just don't get it.

Finishing layups has very little to do with learning the offense, new coach or new players. It can get easier by spreading the floor. It might have just been a bad game. Or Nene's stifling defense. And I acknowledge that it is early specifically when I say "Its early still".

That said, for Rose in particular, I am paying attention to this issue because his stats showed this was an issue last season as well - going 1/13 on layups in March. Not finishing well in the paint. So, if a guy was having trouble converting layups last year it is relevant that he starts the pre-season still missing layups? Maybe. Maybe not. Worth noting.

For me, the question is 'why is he missing layups'? Is it just an off night? Is he just working out the kinks? Or is he shying away from contact and releasing the ball early from odd release point? Who knows. I don't know the answer. Not writing off the season. Just making an observation.

the "layups" he is attempting are mostly borderline circus shots, where he's relying on his athleticism to convert them, but also risks getting injured yet again. and they end up being lower percentage shots, as you noted. the trouble is that he leaves his feet too soon and commits instead of maintaining another dribble or two, which could lead to a pocket pass to a cutting big man for the finish. crazymadups mentioned that once the big men get used to these shots, they'll be in position to rebound and convert them. i don't know about that. i'd rather see him make assists to them by making pocket passes, which requires him to maintain his dribble-- even making one more dribble would be dramatic. meantime, he is only shooting 50% at that distance-- does anybody see anything wrong with that? i sure do. he needs to convert 60% of those "layups" in order to justify taking them in the first place.

and then there's his atrocious defense. i have pointed out all summer how bad his defensive plus-minus is-- we got a sobering dose of that last night.

well according to JH, they had no defensive plan to begin with, which to me sounds like BS, so im not going to entirely blame rose..

You cant defend a system that heavily revolves around ball movement and spacing with out a plan.

What I saw was players trying to recover back to defend a outlet pass for a 3 pointers just off of penetration. You go charging at the player who pump fakes you out of your shows, or certainly get you off balnce

Your going to be a horrible defensive team if your not communicating on defense, especially if it's constant PnR

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I'm loving Rose and Jennings getting into the paint. Not enjoying the rate at which they are finishing in the paint. Missed layups and floaters. Not drawing ccontact. Its early still.

It's our first game. Learning new offense, new coach. New players. It will take some time. They are getting good shots--just missing.

Some people just don't get it.

Finishing layups has very little to do with learning the offense, new coach or new players. It can get easier by spreading the floor. It might have just been a bad game. Or Nene's stifling defense. And I acknowledge that it is early specifically when I say "Its early still".

That said, for Rose in particular, I am paying attention to this issue because his stats showed this was an issue last season as well - going 1/13 on layups in March. Not finishing well in the paint. So, if a guy was having trouble converting layups last year it is relevant that he starts the pre-season still missing layups? Maybe. Maybe not. Worth noting.

For me, the question is 'why is he missing layups'? Is it just an off night? Is he just working out the kinks? Or is he shying away from contact and releasing the ball early from odd release point? Who knows. I don't know the answer. Not writing off the season. Just making an observation.

the "layups" he is attempting are mostly borderline circus shots, where he's relying on his athleticism to convert them, but also risks getting injured yet again. and they end up being lower percentage shots, as you noted. the trouble is that he leaves his feet too soon and commits instead of maintaining another dribble or two, which could lead to a pocket pass to a cutting big man for the finish. crazymadups mentioned that once the big men get used to these shots, they'll be in position to rebound and convert them. i don't know about that. i'd rather see him make assists to them by making pocket passes, which requires him to maintain his dribble-- even making one more dribble would be dramatic. meantime, he is only shooting 50% at that distance-- does anybody see anything wrong with that? i sure do. he needs to convert 60% of those "layups" in order to justify taking them in the first place.

and then there's his atrocious defense. i have pointed out all summer how bad his defensive plus-minus is-- we got a sobering dose of that last night.

well according to JH, they had no defensive plan to begin with, which to me sounds like BS, so im not going to entirely blame rose..

You cant defend a system that heavily revolves around ball movement and spacing with out a plan.

What I saw was players trying to recover back to defend a outlet pass for a 3 pointers just off of penetration. You go charging at the player who pump fakes you out of your shows, or certainly get you off balnce

Your going to be a horrible defensive team if your not communicating on defense, especially if it's constant PnR

yes there were no closeouts, but just as bad was the transition defense. rockets also got a lot of transition layups and putbacks.

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:I worry about melo messing up chemistry, trying to keep his 20 pt average and star status.....i saw a few times when melo and others would not pass to the open man, trying to selfishlyput up stats..... as soon as all 5 players on the court plays like a team, we will start winning.

Chancey also said something critical. The triangle worked in the past because phil had a top defensive team. Our defense is at the bottom.....thats a bad combination for a team running a triangle offense. Just like Horny said play defense without a strategy.....i used to build my teams based on defense and told them dont worry about offense, but a provided defensive strategies.....my winning record is flawless....Defense wins championships.....we havent been a good defensive team since the 90s.....

Knicks had worse defenders on the perimeter last year and ended up 18th in defense. It's possible that this team could end up a good deal better once they lock in. I think Horny is just trying to ease the team into this. They have a lot to absorb and bring together with all the new players and maybe he is taking things in stages.

Houston has a bunch of new players?