EnySpree wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:You are still suggesting we train civilians to fix a problem where the civilians are not the problem. In many of these cases they did nothing to provoke the police. The police went out of their way to create a situation, escalate it and cause general chaos and panic. I know you agree they need to be trained, but more than that they need to be held accountable. Their decision making when confronted with a completely non threatening situation like a guy smoking a joint or a car stalled on the road was absolutely abysmal.

of course I agree but would you not want your children trained? How to not piss off an office especially a dik one?

Train kids how to not get killed by a police officer? That sounds ok to you?

So when a guy is laying on his back with his hands up and they still shot himy, who's fault is that?

When a guy is in his building walking up the stairwell with his girlfriend on the way to his apartment gets shot... who's at fault? What kind of training do we need for this?

I can run down the line to instances on camera where people weren't doing anything and all get killed or violently beat and arrested.

I've been in more than one bad situation where I felt like the cops were going to kill me... I've also been dead wrong more than once and the cops let me go with barely a warning. There are bad cops out there that need to be weeded out... their are good cops out there doing a great job. The good cops need to be out their protesting too... all the people on the side of the cops should also be on the side of the protesters next to the good cops asking for a change.

It's disgusting. Some of you guys are disgusting. I'm not going to get into it on this forum because I go here to get away from that on Facebook and other outlets.

We need change...everyone needs to get on the same page. We are basically in a new civil rights movement. Racism is being disguised by people believing they are being intelligent and informed. Using terms and sighting facts that disguise what they really feel but are in denial about.

I believe we're still a generation away from real change. Until then, history is repeating itself. Social media steeped it from under the rug.

Its not all about racism, white kids are being stupid too and getting shot. Check the clips that were posted.

Nobody is saying that cops should shoot innocent people. I am saying that people should not be stupid and they should know the basics of what not to do. Will that always help? Of course not, you may get shot anyway but the fist thing that you should do if you want to get arrested or shot is get out of your car.

Its crazy that just because one side can be quite guilty, that means that there is always only one side ... SMH with some of you.

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

meloshouldgo wrote:

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

It's easy to armchair QB these things and point out how stupid these people were. And I hope this never happens to anyone again. But if you are ever in a situation with 5-7 people surrounding you with loaded weapons pointed straight at you and you know they are predisposed to believing you are guilty of something. Even when that something was entirely manufactured in their brains to satisfy their itchy trigger fingers, then we will find out how rational you can act. The police are committing terrorist acts against these people. And you are shaking your head at those that are trying to hold them accountable. Good looks.

No I'm not! Please follow my posts more carefully before making a comment like that. I hate that the cops even have guns and are so quick to shoot to kill. I hate that cops look so ill trained or even worse, are given a go to be overly excessive. I hate that when some people get pulled over, they are clueless about what to do and they sometimes jump out of their cars or do other stupid things that get them shot even though they have done nothing wrong other than not knowing that they should have stayed put.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

It's easy to armchair QB these things and point out how stupid these people were. And I hope this never happens to anyone again. But if you are ever in a situation with 5-7 people surrounding you with loaded weapons pointed straight at you and you know they are predisposed to believing you are guilty of something. Even when that something was entirely manufactured in their brains to satisfy their itchy trigger fingers, then we will find out how rational you can act. The police are committing terrorist acts against these people. And you are shaking your head at those that are trying to hold them accountable. Good looks.

No I'm not! Please follow my posts more carefully before making a comment like that. I hate that the cops even have guns and are so quick to shoot to kill. I hate that cops look so ill trained or even worse, are given a go to be overly excessive. I hate that when some people get pulled over, they are clueless about what to do and they sometimes jump out of their cars or do other stupid things that get them shot even though they have done nothing wrong other than not knowing that they should have stayed put.

My mom — like a lot of Black parents — used to have a pamphlet on our family bulletin board about what to do when you get stopped by the police. It was geared for black motorists but we were made aware of that easily a decade or more before we were driving age.

In fact, growing up in NJ in the 90s I decided getting my driver's license and a car was too much of a risk... and didn't get my license until my mid-30s, after I left NJ ;)

So your comment makes me think if police pull-over procedure should be something that is a part of the 5 hour class when getting your driver's license for everyone, if it isn't already.

That is exactly what I am proposing.

I have no idea why that comes off as being pro bad cop and that I am placing the onus or blame elsewhere.

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

It's easy to armchair QB these things and point out how stupid these people were. And I hope this never happens to anyone again. But if you are ever in a situation with 5-7 people surrounding you with loaded weapons pointed straight at you and you know they are predisposed to believing you are guilty of something. Even when that something was entirely manufactured in their brains to satisfy their itchy trigger fingers, then we will find out how rational you can act. The police are committing terrorist acts against these people. And you are shaking your head at those that are trying to hold them accountable. Good looks.

No I'm not! Please follow my posts more carefully before making a comment like that. I hate that the cops even have guns and are so quick to shoot to kill. I hate that cops look so ill trained or even worse, are given a go to be overly excessive. I hate that when some people get pulled over, they are clueless about what to do and they sometimes jump out of their cars or do other stupid things that get them shot even though they have done nothing wrong other than not knowing that they should have stayed put.

My mom — like a lot of Black parents — used to have a pamphlet on our family bulletin board about what to do when you get stopped by the police. It was geared for black motorists but we were made aware of that easily a decade or more before we were driving age.

In fact, growing up in NJ in the 90s I decided getting my driver's license and a car was too much of a risk... and didn't get my license until my mid-30s, after I left NJ ;)

So your comment makes me think if police pull-over procedure should be something that is a part of the 5 hour class when getting your driver's license for everyone, if it isn't already.

That is exactly what I am proposing.

I have no idea why that comes off as being pro bad cop and that I am placing the onus or blame elsewhere.

It's an interesting idea. I do wonder about the politics of it. Because on one hand, there are your rights as a citizen. On the other hand, you have what is the smart, savvy, or pragmatic thing to do. They are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm sure it's a slippery slope with the ACLU on one side and a Patrolman's Benevolent Assoc on the other. I'm sure cops won't like being depicted as a roadside hazard like ice or drunk driving... but the ACLU wouldn't like the state recommending compromises to our civil liberties.

You don't have the right as a citizen to get out of the car when you get pulled over. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this awareness. I think that it is all gain and no loss.

I'm confused. Are you talking about one of these cases specifically with the "right to get out of the car"?

Because in the case of Scott in Charlotte, he was ordered.

In the case of Crutcher in Tulsa, it wasn't a traffic stop, but response to a stalled vehicle.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-youre-stopped-police-immigration-agents-or-fbi

There are rights — right to remain silent, refuse a search, lawyer upon arrest, etc... and there are "responsibilities". Even when the ACLU give its recommendations, they are clear to say it is not "legal advice".

It would be interesting to see what a DMV would have the latitude to instruct prospective drivers — again, it might be in the manual already, who reads those things after the test anyway? I don't remember how many feet I'm supposed to be from a hydrant anymore or which way to turn my wheels when parked up a hill!

But perhaps we do need to tack another hour on the driver's class to cover this.

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

It's easy to armchair QB these things and point out how stupid these people were. And I hope this never happens to anyone again. But if you are ever in a situation with 5-7 people surrounding you with loaded weapons pointed straight at you and you know they are predisposed to believing you are guilty of something. Even when that something was entirely manufactured in their brains to satisfy their itchy trigger fingers, then we will find out how rational you can act. The police are committing terrorist acts against these people. And you are shaking your head at those that are trying to hold them accountable. Good looks.

No I'm not! Please follow my posts more carefully before making a comment like that. I hate that the cops even have guns and are so quick to shoot to kill. I hate that cops look so ill trained or even worse, are given a go to be overly excessive. I hate that when some people get pulled over, they are clueless about what to do and they sometimes jump out of their cars or do other stupid things that get them shot even though they have done nothing wrong other than not knowing that they should have stayed put.

My mom — like a lot of Black parents — used to have a pamphlet on our family bulletin board about what to do when you get stopped by the police. It was geared for black motorists but we were made aware of that easily a decade or more before we were driving age.

In fact, growing up in NJ in the 90s I decided getting my driver's license and a car was too much of a risk... and didn't get my license until my mid-30s, after I left NJ ;)

So your comment makes me think if police pull-over procedure should be something that is a part of the 5 hour class when getting your driver's license for everyone, if it isn't already.

That is exactly what I am proposing.

I have no idea why that comes off as being pro bad cop and that I am placing the onus or blame elsewhere.

It's an interesting idea. I do wonder about the politics of it. Because on one hand, there are your rights as a citizen. On the other hand, you have what is the smart, savvy, or pragmatic thing to do. They are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm sure it's a slippery slope with the ACLU on one side and a Patrolman's Benevolent Assoc on the other. I'm sure cops won't like being depicted as a roadside hazard like ice or drunk driving... but the ACLU wouldn't like the state recommending compromises to our civil liberties.

You don't have the right as a citizen to get out of the car when you get pulled over. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this awareness. I think that it is all gain and no loss.

I'm confused. Are you talking about one of these cases specifically with the "right to get out of the car"?

Because in the case of Scott in Charlotte, he was ordered.

In the case of Crutcher in Tulsa, it wasn't a traffic stop, but response to a stalled vehicle.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-youre-stopped-police-immigration-agents-or-fbi

There are rights — right to remain silent, refuse a search, lawyer upon arrest, etc... and there are "responsibilities". Even when the ACLU give its recommendations, they are clear to say it is not "legal advice".

It would be interesting to see what a DMV would have the latitude to instruct prospective drivers — again, it might be in the manual already, who reads those things after the test anyway? I don't remember how many feet I'm supposed to be from a hydrant anymore or which way to turn my wheels when parked up a hill!

But perhaps we do need to tack another hour on the driver's class to cover this.

No. I think that the police look awful in this NC case. I am talking about overall awareness which many in all races seem to be lacking.

I am trying to figure out though why this is more on topic and knicks related than the Derrick Rose rape case which is very knicks related and very much in the news with the trial coming up next week. This screams of terrible stereotypes of ignoring this issue and these women. And people still wonder why rape is so underreported and women want to remain anonymous.

Horrible example here ... C ya!

Fair point. I simply post in the threads I feel like I have something to say in. I still try to be fair and not paint a broad brush unless I'm painting a landscape.

I simply don't know what to say about the Rose case. The same reason I loved Law & Order & Criminal Intent but don't watch Law & Order SVU. I don't have the stomach for those kind of details. But don't pin someone else's character failures on me, bro.

Bye bye!

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

It's easy to armchair QB these things and point out how stupid these people were. And I hope this never happens to anyone again. But if you are ever in a situation with 5-7 people surrounding you with loaded weapons pointed straight at you and you know they are predisposed to believing you are guilty of something. Even when that something was entirely manufactured in their brains to satisfy their itchy trigger fingers, then we will find out how rational you can act. The police are committing terrorist acts against these people. And you are shaking your head at those that are trying to hold them accountable. Good looks.

No I'm not! Please follow my posts more carefully before making a comment like that. I hate that the cops even have guns and are so quick to shoot to kill. I hate that cops look so ill trained or even worse, are given a go to be overly excessive. I hate that when some people get pulled over, they are clueless about what to do and they sometimes jump out of their cars or do other stupid things that get them shot even though they have done nothing wrong other than not knowing that they should have stayed put.

My mom — like a lot of Black parents — used to have a pamphlet on our family bulletin board about what to do when you get stopped by the police. It was geared for black motorists but we were made aware of that easily a decade or more before we were driving age.

In fact, growing up in NJ in the 90s I decided getting my driver's license and a car was too much of a risk... and didn't get my license until my mid-30s, after I left NJ ;)

So your comment makes me think if police pull-over procedure should be something that is a part of the 5 hour class when getting your driver's license for everyone, if it isn't already.

That is exactly what I am proposing.

I have no idea why that comes off as being pro bad cop and that I am placing the onus or blame elsewhere.

It's an interesting idea. I do wonder about the politics of it. Because on one hand, there are your rights as a citizen. On the other hand, you have what is the smart, savvy, or pragmatic thing to do. They are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm sure it's a slippery slope with the ACLU on one side and a Patrolman's Benevolent Assoc on the other. I'm sure cops won't like being depicted as a roadside hazard like ice or drunk driving... but the ACLU wouldn't like the state recommending compromises to our civil liberties.

You don't have the right as a citizen to get out of the car when you get pulled over. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this awareness. I think that it is all gain and no loss.

I'm confused. Are you talking about one of these cases specifically with the "right to get out of the car"?

Because in the case of Scott in Charlotte, he was ordered.

In the case of Crutcher in Tulsa, it wasn't a traffic stop, but response to a stalled vehicle.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-youre-stopped-police-immigration-agents-or-fbi

There are rights — right to remain silent, refuse a search, lawyer upon arrest, etc... and there are "responsibilities". Even when the ACLU give its recommendations, they are clear to say it is not "legal advice".

It would be interesting to see what a DMV would have the latitude to instruct prospective drivers — again, it might be in the manual already, who reads those things after the test anyway? I don't remember how many feet I'm supposed to be from a hydrant anymore or which way to turn my wheels when parked up a hill!

But perhaps we do need to tack another hour on the driver's class to cover this.

No. I think that the police look awful in this NC case. I am talking about overall awareness which many in all races seem to be lacking.

I am trying to figure out though why this is more on topic and knicks related than the Derrick Rose rape case which is very knicks related and very much in the news with the trial coming up next week. This screams of terrible stereotypes of ignoring this issue and these women. And people still wonder why rape is so underreported and women want to remain anonymous.

Horrible example here ... C ya!

Fair point. I simply post in the threads I feel like I have something to say in. I still try to be fair and not paint a broad brush unless I'm painting a landscape.

I simply don't know what to say about the Rose case. The same reason I loved Law & Order & Criminal Intent but don't watch Law & Order SVU. I don't have the stomach for those kind of details. But don't pin someone else's character failures on me, bro.

Bye bye!

hey sorry Doc, the C ya was not meant for you, you are a class posters with a very fair take on things. Others should follow your example.

No problem, man. Hat tip to you sir.

mreinman wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

mreinman wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:You are still suggesting we train civilians to fix a problem where the civilians are not the problem. In many of these cases they did nothing to provoke the police. The police went out of their way to create a situation, escalate it and cause general chaos and panic. I know you agree they need to be trained, but more than that they need to be held accountable. Their decision making when confronted with a completely non threatening situation like a guy smoking a joint or a car stalled on the road was absolutely abysmal.

of course I agree but would you not want your children trained? How to not piss off an office especially a dik one?

Train kids how to not get killed by a police officer? That sounds ok to you?

So when a guy is laying on his back with his hands up and they still shot himy, who's fault is that?

When a guy is in his building walking up the stairwell with his girlfriend on the way to his apartment gets shot... who's at fault? What kind of training do we need for this?

I can run down the line to instances on camera where people weren't doing anything and all get killed or violently beat and arrested.

I've been in more than one bad situation where I felt like the cops were going to kill me... I've also been dead wrong more than once and the cops let me go with barely a warning. There are bad cops out there that need to be weeded out... their are good cops out there doing a great job. The good cops need to be out their protesting too... all the people on the side of the cops should also be on the side of the protesters next to the good cops asking for a change.

It's disgusting. Some of you guys are disgusting. I'm not going to get into it on this forum because I go here to get away from that on Facebook and other outlets.

We need change...everyone needs to get on the same page. We are basically in a new civil rights movement. Racism is being disguised by people believing they are being intelligent and informed. Using terms and sighting facts that disguise what they really feel but are in denial about.

I believe we're still a generation away from real change. Until then, history is repeating itself. Social media steeped it from under the rug.

Its not all about racism, white kids are being stupid too and getting shot. Check the clips that were posted.

Nobody is saying that cops should shoot innocent people. I am saying that people should not be stupid and they should know the basics of what not to do. Will that always help? Of course not, you may get shot anyway but the fist thing that you should do if you want to get arrested or shot is get out of your car.

Its crazy that just because one side can be quite guilty, that means that there is always only one side ... SMH with some of you.

I mentioned racism once at the end. Didn't say anything about white and black at all in what I wrote. Smh with some of you

mreinman wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Rookie wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

holfresh wrote:I saw the video of the North Carolina shooting..I didn't see a gun but Lamont Scott looked like he had a gun, he was walking like he was holding a gun..He simple didn't look like a person backing away from a conflict...He had an object in his right hand. I can't fault the police here...

His main flaw was not coming out with his hands up and attempting to slowly lay on the ground. I can't speak for the officers but I don't feel that he presented any real tldanger to them. Their were multiple officers. They had taken cover behind their vehicles. The man walked out of the car like they requested. When he turned his head to witness all the different officers present is when they took him as a threat. With all that said was there a need for the multiple guns shots with the shoot to kill mentality? Would a shoulder/leg shot not be a more appropriate action in this instance?

If he had a gun in his hand then this is all moot...Dude had a gun holster around his left ankle around his white socks, I saw it, I slowed, froze, the frame from the police body cam...If he had a gun in his hands, all bets are off...Look at the police officer's point of view..You told him to drop the gun several times, he got out the car with gun in hand and moved around in a manner not to resolve the conflict..Be reasonable...

NC is an open carry state. So the main question is if he had a gun in his hand as he came out of the car. Which even after all this still isn't clear for some reason. He was an open target for multiple police officers who we all behind cover. And while his head and body turned he was shot while never even attempting to move his arms. I can't tell you what was going through his head. He was either looking for conflicted which he had no way out of but death. Or he was scared out of his mind and reacted poorly which resulted in his death. At the end of the day police had way more control over the situation and his life then he ever had over theirs.

I don't understand the argument if he had a gun in his hands then we need to examine his mental state or wait to see if he raises and fire or he is reacting poorly to commands...All that is just crazy to me..Everyone is trying to get home to their family. If I'm a police officer, I'm not trying to find out if his bullets can pierce the car I'm trying to hide behind or if he is upset or medicated etc...If you have a gun in hand and you refuse to drop it and you are backtracking like some one in combat then all bets are off...Put yourself in the situation, If you had a gun and think you life is in danger and the other person has a gun, are you going to shoot him in the leg and see what happens next??

I keep thinking back and forth on this and it's hard to really take clear position. Openly carrying a gun around is completely legal in NC. This person like everyone else knows the police are probably going to shoot and kill him in this situation based on the history of several such shootings this year. Right or wrong what do you expect him to do? If he complies and they still shoot him he didn't give himself a fighting chance. This is the dilemma created in people's mind by unchecked police brutality.

Also it's a failure of the gun laws that allow people to openly carry but doesn't provide the police with proper protocol for deescalating.

I have a concealed weapons license. At no time in my life have I or will I, take it out during a traffic stop, hold it in my hand, then refuse to drop it when asked by several police officers. And you should "expect" everyone in their right mind to do the same. However, I do agree that the process for obtaining a gun is way too easy and needs stricter requirements. It is a sad commentary that it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to obtain a driver's license. Also, police have a ridiculously hard job, but there needs to be more training on how to defuse a situation. Some of these shootings are clearly showing certain officers are just not ready for the stress of a life or death situation.

NC is open carry, so there's no reason for him to hide it. I don't know your ethnicity, but I can see why black people may justifiably fear for their life when surrounded by the police. If you think you are going to be shot (not sure how many points in your life you felt that) you too would try to defend yourself. This man had no idea if the police would let him live assuming he even had a gun in his hands. And when both your wife and the police are screaming different things at you, you can get easily confused in a very stressful situation. The man sitting in his car minding his own business and not breaking any laws, There was no "situation" till the Police went out of their way to create one.

There is nothing to get confused about. The first words out of your mouth are "officer, I have a legal hand gun". Situation diffused

Situation diffused? Tell that to the guy shot dead in Tulsa.

There's no doubt this was a tragedy. And yes, there are cops that just should not be cops. But there is no chance anyone will live if you they at stopped, have a gun and ignore a police officer with a gun pointed at them telling them to drop their weapon. But if you get out, go straight to floor with hands on your head then there is a much betyer chance of getting home. And if they do shoot, then ot gives clear evidence for that cop to spend the rest of their lives in jail. As the a Tulsa cop will.

NO NO NO! Its the cops fault ... people have a right to be stupid.

Actually people do have the right to be stupid. This is America.

People are being killed without even committing any crimes.

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/9/27/1574972/-Greensboro-NC-city-leaders-release-video-and-permanently-suspend-police-officer-for-excessive-force?detail=email&link_id=2&can_id=0ed299ceb50ce0771cc145e8367b4972&source=email-trump-is-going-to-regret-mentioning-rosie-odonnell-last-night-because-shes-back-and-shes-pissed&email_referrer=trump-is-going-to-regret-mentioning-rosie-odonnell-last-night-because-shes-back-and-shes-pissed___111814&email_subject=greensboro-nc-city-leaders-release-video-and-permanently-suspend-police-officer-for-excessive-force

For those that say all y'all need to do is follow the officer's direction tell me what he did wrong.