blkexec wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

you can see who actually understands the game (or any athletic competition for that matter) by some of these comments. Nobody is calling Rose the big fundamental. He is a big upgrade over Jose (although some of the stat monkeys actually think the Knicks got worse). He's an athletic scoring PG who gets into the paint at will. We will see if this translates into a better Knick team or not.

I'm convinced this team will be better. Cuz it's not just Rose but how all the new players fit with each other and with Hornacek's schemes. The way Rose plays fits how Hornacek wants to play. He can push the ball but also run PnR. Lee, Melo and KP can knock down jumpers off the catch. Rose and Noah already have great chemistry, which gets overlooked. In every way this is a better roster.

You keep bringing up fit like ours a foregone conclusion. Thread after thread, I see the same thing. How well they fit and if they fit will only be determined in the regular season. It's great to project what you believe in, but it's not an established fact.

Projecting how a team fits together can never be a fact.....Because it's in the future and the future is never promised! But what he's saying is there's a high probability that they will fit together, based on the parts that phil put together, and the history between players like Rose and Noah or Hornacek and fast guards....Thats his opinion, based on historical data, so I can't say he's wrong or right, it's just a fans opinion. I see nothing wrong with that. Same can be said about rose and noah haters, who point to their historical injury resume, and use that historical fact to project the future.

Not true. An individual player with an injury history is a much more self contained case than a team that lives in his imagination involving a dynamic set of variables, players and coaching staff. Saying the two are the same is a stretch. It's his opinion and I have no issue with him having an opinion. There is zero evidence that Rose, Noah and Jennings will fit better with Hornaceks schemes. You can't take a patchwork of assumptions and start drawing complex conclusions from it.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:pot...kettle.

lmao.. in the "real world" DK answers to nobody! I think your brilliant post fell on deaf ears as you appear to be in the "fvck mvnkey yahoos" ignore list. Classic!

i dont really respond to his posts anymore, unless he's specifically calling me out. he lives in his own world, which is fine. after interacting with him a few times on here, i realized he's not really interested in listening so why bother debating anything with him.

I guess I never paid attention to the friction among different posters. And for Martin to step in was eye opening. Thats why this site has been so successful. I hope I didn't rekindle that friction again. There's so many positives surrounding Knick fans right now, I don't know what to do with myself. For years, I've stood up to all the back lash from other fans, representing orange and blue regardless of our record. So when there is tension between fans, I usually look over it, because the real tension is with non knick fans, who I interact with all the time, since I live outside of NYC, with a potential move down to Dallas Texas.....Again, I will be Giants blue all day with a touch of Orange and Blue, while rocking a yankee blue.....

In DK's defense, he hasn't been the same poster the last few months that he was when he joined. His poor choice of words aside, there is a lot less Melo on the brain, and he's added more to the discussion IMO lately than he has taken away from it. Hope this carries into the season.

Also hope we don't once again have a small faction holding whatever views they might have (positive or negative) spamming threads, trying to shut down discussions. This board works when its more about exchanging ideas, and less about planting flags.

Thank you. I am not so down on Melo because he has matured a bit as a man and he played 25 fantastic games last year. I infer from your remarks that you perhaps see that I am fair-minded or even-handed if not completely objective. As I always say, when a player plays well I will praise and if a player plays badly I will say so. Off court it's the same thing. (Rose has an October 4th court date for sexual assault, which is the first day of Preseason and his 28th birthday.) I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that.

You forgot a great humanitarian, philanthropist, and global icon. GTFO. I was infering that your very strong opinion of Melo wasnt the problem, it was how you chose to share it. Incessantly and regardless of the topic.

GustavBahler wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:pot...kettle.

lmao.. in the "real world" DK answers to nobody! I think your brilliant post fell on deaf ears as you appear to be in the "fvck mvnkey yahoos" ignore list. Classic!

i dont really respond to his posts anymore, unless he's specifically calling me out. he lives in his own world, which is fine. after interacting with him a few times on here, i realized he's not really interested in listening so why bother debating anything with him.

I guess I never paid attention to the friction among different posters. And for Martin to step in was eye opening. Thats why this site has been so successful. I hope I didn't rekindle that friction again. There's so many positives surrounding Knick fans right now, I don't know what to do with myself. For years, I've stood up to all the back lash from other fans, representing orange and blue regardless of our record. So when there is tension between fans, I usually look over it, because the real tension is with non knick fans, who I interact with all the time, since I live outside of NYC, with a potential move down to Dallas Texas.....Again, I will be Giants blue all day with a touch of Orange and Blue, while rocking a yankee blue.....

In DK's defense, he hasn't been the same poster the last few months that he was when he joined. His poor choice of words aside, there is a lot less Melo on the brain, and he's added more to the discussion IMO lately than he has taken away from it. Hope this carries into the season.

Also hope we don't once again have a small faction holding whatever views they might have (positive or negative) spamming threads, trying to shut down discussions. This board works when its more about exchanging ideas, and less about planting flags.

Thank you. I am not so down on Melo because he has matured a bit as a man and he played 25 fantastic games last year. I infer from your remarks that you perhaps see that I am fair-minded or even-handed if not completely objective. As I always say, when a player plays well I will praise and if a player plays badly I will say so. Off court it's the same thing. (Rose has an October 4th court date for sexual assault, which is the first day of Preseason and his 28th birthday.) I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that.

You forgot a great humanitarian, philanthropist, and global icon. GTFO. I was infering that your very strong opinion of Melo wasnt the problem, it was how you chose to share it. Incessantly and regardless of the topic.

Wow thanks for the internet sucker punch. Classless punk move.

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

blkexec wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

you can see who actually understands the game (or any athletic competition for that matter) by some of these comments. Nobody is calling Rose the big fundamental. He is a big upgrade over Jose (although some of the stat monkeys actually think the Knicks got worse). He's an athletic scoring PG who gets into the paint at will. We will see if this translates into a better Knick team or not.

I'm convinced this team will be better. Cuz it's not just Rose but how all the new players fit with each other and with Hornacek's schemes. The way Rose plays fits how Hornacek wants to play. He can push the ball but also run PnR. Lee, Melo and KP can knock down jumpers off the catch. Rose and Noah already have great chemistry, which gets overlooked. In every way this is a better roster.

You keep bringing up fit like ours a foregone conclusion. Thread after thread, I see the same thing. How well they fit and if they fit will only be determined in the regular season. It's great to project what you believe in, but it's not an established fact.

Projecting how a team fits together can never be a fact.....Because it's in the future and the future is never promised! But what he's saying is there's a high probability that they will fit together, based on the parts that phil put together, and the history between players like Rose and Noah or Hornacek and fast guards....Thats his opinion, based on historical data, so I can't say he's wrong or right, it's just a fans opinion. I see nothing wrong with that. Same can be said about rose and noah haters, who point to their historical injury resume, and use that historical fact to project the future.

Not true. An individual player with an injury history is a much more self contained case than a team that lives in his imagination involving a dynamic set of variables, players and coaching staff. Saying the two are the same is a stretch. It's his opinion and I have no issue with him having an opinion. There is zero evidence that Rose, Noah and Jennings will fit better with Hornaceks schemes. You can't take a patchwork of assumptions and start drawing complex conclusions from it.

Please explain your statement about complex conclusions. Nothing I've presented is complex. It's as logical as 2+2=4!!! Yes there is always a chance it doesn't work but IMO it's very low.

Hornacek has proven he knows how to incorporate scoring PG's into an offense and make use of forwards and centers that can shoot from 3 or run PnR. So the players Phil has on this roster fit perfectly into what Hornacek specializes in. I've provided my proof in various threads so you're going to have to explain why I'm wrong about how these players should fit.

I think I already explained it - what you are projecting isn't 2+2=4, it's more in the range of a+b+c+?+?+d+e = 55 wins. That's all. Too many question marks and variables are open in your analysis. I admire your level of optimism for the Knicks and your patience and respectful posting here, but I have to admit your ability to predict/forecast is not on the same level as those other virtues. That doesn't make you a lesser poster, in fact you seem to be the key component of holding up one side of the common discourse on this forum.

The whole "fit" thing was starting to sound like a foregone conclusion, so I was merely pointing out the obvious. There is no formula for fit, it's one of those things that's hard to explain. Trying to make the case for fit using shooting range and percentage of shots made from various points on the floor while admirable in its creativity is not very reliable in my opinion.

Chill.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:pot...kettle.

lmao.. in the "real world" DK answers to nobody! I think your brilliant post fell on deaf ears as you appear to be in the "fvck mvnkey yahoos" ignore list. Classic!

i dont really respond to his posts anymore, unless he's specifically calling me out. he lives in his own world, which is fine. after interacting with him a few times on here, i realized he's not really interested in listening so why bother debating anything with him.

I guess I never paid attention to the friction among different posters. And for Martin to step in was eye opening. Thats why this site has been so successful. I hope I didn't rekindle that friction again. There's so many positives surrounding Knick fans right now, I don't know what to do with myself. For years, I've stood up to all the back lash from other fans, representing orange and blue regardless of our record. So when there is tension between fans, I usually look over it, because the real tension is with non knick fans, who I interact with all the time, since I live outside of NYC, with a potential move down to Dallas Texas.....Again, I will be Giants blue all day with a touch of Orange and Blue, while rocking a yankee blue.....

In DK's defense, he hasn't been the same poster the last few months that he was when he joined. His poor choice of words aside, there is a lot less Melo on the brain, and he's added more to the discussion IMO lately than he has taken away from it. Hope this carries into the season.

Also hope we don't once again have a small faction holding whatever views they might have (positive or negative) spamming threads, trying to shut down discussions. This board works when its more about exchanging ideas, and less about planting flags.

Thank you. I am not so down on Melo because he has matured a bit as a man and he played 25 fantastic games last year. I infer from your remarks that you perhaps see that I am fair-minded or even-handed if not completely objective. As I always say, when a player plays well I will praise and if a player plays badly I will say so. Off court it's the same thing. (Rose has an October 4th court date for sexual assault, which is the first day of Preseason and his 28th birthday.) I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that.

You forgot a great humanitarian, philanthropist, and global icon. GTFO. I was infering that your very strong opinion of Melo wasnt the problem, it was how you chose to share it. Incessantly and regardless of the topic.

Wow thanks for the internet sucker punch. Classless punk move.

I told posters you have been a much better poster lately, a positive sum poster (as you like to say) and you respond with something that sounds a lot like " you're inferring of course how awesome I am."

You've spent the better part of your time here trying to be as disruptive a force as you could manage. I told everyone how you changed and you went fishing for more compliments.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

blkexec wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

you can see who actually understands the game (or any athletic competition for that matter) by some of these comments. Nobody is calling Rose the big fundamental. He is a big upgrade over Jose (although some of the stat monkeys actually think the Knicks got worse). He's an athletic scoring PG who gets into the paint at will. We will see if this translates into a better Knick team or not.

I'm convinced this team will be better. Cuz it's not just Rose but how all the new players fit with each other and with Hornacek's schemes. The way Rose plays fits how Hornacek wants to play. He can push the ball but also run PnR. Lee, Melo and KP can knock down jumpers off the catch. Rose and Noah already have great chemistry, which gets overlooked. In every way this is a better roster.

You keep bringing up fit like ours a foregone conclusion. Thread after thread, I see the same thing. How well they fit and if they fit will only be determined in the regular season. It's great to project what you believe in, but it's not an established fact.

Projecting how a team fits together can never be a fact.....Because it's in the future and the future is never promised! But what he's saying is there's a high probability that they will fit together, based on the parts that phil put together, and the history between players like Rose and Noah or Hornacek and fast guards....Thats his opinion, based on historical data, so I can't say he's wrong or right, it's just a fans opinion. I see nothing wrong with that. Same can be said about rose and noah haters, who point to their historical injury resume, and use that historical fact to project the future.

Not true. An individual player with an injury history is a much more self contained case than a team that lives in his imagination involving a dynamic set of variables, players and coaching staff. Saying the two are the same is a stretch. It's his opinion and I have no issue with him having an opinion. There is zero evidence that Rose, Noah and Jennings will fit better with Hornaceks schemes. You can't take a patchwork of assumptions and start drawing complex conclusions from it.

Please explain your statement about complex conclusions. Nothing I've presented is complex. It's as logical as 2+2=4!!! Yes there is always a chance it doesn't work but IMO it's very low.

Hornacek has proven he knows how to incorporate scoring PG's into an offense and make use of forwards and centers that can shoot from 3 or run PnR. So the players Phil has on this roster fit perfectly into what Hornacek specializes in. I've provided my proof in various threads so you're going to have to explain why I'm wrong about how these players should fit.

I think I already explained it - what you are projecting isn't 2+2=4, it's more in the range of a+b+c+?+?+d+e = 55 wins. That's all. Too many question marks and variables are open in your analysis. I admire your level of optimism for the Knicks and your patience and respectful posting here, but I have to admit your ability to predict/forecast is not on the same level as those other virtues. That doesn't make you a lesser poster, in fact you seem to be the key component of holding up one side of the common discourse on this forum.

The whole "fit" thing was starting to sound like a foregone conclusion, so I was merely pointing out the obvious. There is no formula for fit, it's one of those things that's hard to explain. Trying to make the case for fit using shooting range and percentage of shots made from various points on the floor while admirable in its creativity is not very reliable in my opinion.

Chill.

I really don't know what you mean. First off Rose and Lee FIT. Rose is ball dominant and Lee is a proven catch and shoot low usage SG! Melo and KP are not only catch and shoot capable but they have multiple skills and can do just about anything on the floor. Noah is a great PnR and defensive center that is one of the best post passers in the game. Explain to us how that doesn't fit! What can you point to that would suggest these players don't fit together as well as fit coach Hornacek! In fact Rose, Noah, Melo and KP have played Triangle and Lee has played in old school offenses as well. So even when talking about Triangle vs uptempo spread offense stuff, these players have proven capable.

I'm sorry but this has NOTHING to do with season predictions. It's pure LOGIC!!! For me to accept your take I'm afraid you'll have to do better. I could get deeper into the details as I've done in other threads to further my point but it's not even necessary. Even if you're talking about chemistry there's an argument in favor since Rose n Noah already have chemistry as does Melo n KP. That makes the process a bit easier. I find this all very funny cuz I bet no one would be saying this if we signed CP3!!!

meloshouldgo wrote:The point, I am trying to make is that you can't keep saying they fit, before they have shown that they can play together and complement each other. I am not saying the roster is badly constructed or that they can't possibly play together. But that "fit" depends on a lot of things that have nothing you do with preferred playing style. The Indiana Pacers fit, then Paul G banged Hilbert's girl friend and they never fit again. Apply your pure logic of one ball dominant guard and a catch and shoot guy to Curry and Klay, how does that work? Kyrie and JR? It only works when you consider things that are not part of your logic. That's what I am trying to point out. Fit requires more variables than two people with contrasting playing styles.

Of course they fit! No need for training camp or practices or the usual 15-20 regular season games gel time it takes most newly constructed teams. nixluva is a precog obviously.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:pot...kettle.

lmao.. in the "real world" DK answers to nobody! I think your brilliant post fell on deaf ears as you appear to be in the "fvck mvnkey yahoos" ignore list. Classic!

i dont really respond to his posts anymore, unless he's specifically calling me out. he lives in his own world, which is fine. after interacting with him a few times on here, i realized he's not really interested in listening so why bother debating anything with him.

I guess I never paid attention to the friction among different posters. And for Martin to step in was eye opening. Thats why this site has been so successful. I hope I didn't rekindle that friction again. There's so many positives surrounding Knick fans right now, I don't know what to do with myself. For years, I've stood up to all the back lash from other fans, representing orange and blue regardless of our record. So when there is tension between fans, I usually look over it, because the real tension is with non knick fans, who I interact with all the time, since I live outside of NYC, with a potential move down to Dallas Texas.....Again, I will be Giants blue all day with a touch of Orange and Blue, while rocking a yankee blue.....

In DK's defense, he hasn't been the same poster the last few months that he was when he joined. His poor choice of words aside, there is a lot less Melo on the brain, and he's added more to the discussion IMO lately than he has taken away from it. Hope this carries into the season.

Also hope we don't once again have a small faction holding whatever views they might have (positive or negative) spamming threads, trying to shut down discussions. This board works when its more about exchanging ideas, and less about planting flags.

Thank you. I am not so down on Melo because he has matured a bit as a man and he played 25 fantastic games last year. I infer from your remarks that you perhaps see that I am fair-minded or even-handed if not completely objective. As I always say, when a player plays well I will praise and if a player plays badly I will say so. Off court it's the same thing. (Rose has an October 4th court date for sexual assault, which is the first day of Preseason and his 28th birthday.) I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that.

You forgot a great humanitarian, philanthropist, and global icon. GTFO. I was infering that your very strong opinion of Melo wasnt the problem, it was how you chose to share it. Incessantly and regardless of the topic.

Wow thanks for the internet sucker punch. Classless punk move.

I told posters you have been a much better poster lately, a positive sum poster (as you like to say) and you respond with something that sounds a lot like " you're inferring of course how awesome I am."

You've spent the better part of your time here trying to be as disruptive a force as you could manage. I told everyone how you changed and you went fishing for more compliments.

no, i was not fishing. i was expressing gratitude to you for your acknowledgement that i am capable of adapting my opinions based on results, for better or worse, and am not being merely a blind hater. there was no implication of awesomeness on my part, yet somehow you took my expression of gratitude to you and twisted it into my alleged self-aggrandizement. i don't know what is in your heart, or any man's other than my own, but i would suggest you search yours. from where i sit, it was mean spirited. forgive me if i am mistaken.

i hope you have learned your lesson today, Gustav. Meanwhile dk of all people is referring to Rose as a narcissist. it's comedy night.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

blkexec wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

you can see who actually understands the game (or any athletic competition for that matter) by some of these comments. Nobody is calling Rose the big fundamental. He is a big upgrade over Jose (although some of the stat monkeys actually think the Knicks got worse). He's an athletic scoring PG who gets into the paint at will. We will see if this translates into a better Knick team or not.

I'm convinced this team will be better. Cuz it's not just Rose but how all the new players fit with each other and with Hornacek's schemes. The way Rose plays fits how Hornacek wants to play. He can push the ball but also run PnR. Lee, Melo and KP can knock down jumpers off the catch. Rose and Noah already have great chemistry, which gets overlooked. In every way this is a better roster.

You keep bringing up fit like ours a foregone conclusion. Thread after thread, I see the same thing. How well they fit and if they fit will only be determined in the regular season. It's great to project what you believe in, but it's not an established fact.

Projecting how a team fits together can never be a fact.....Because it's in the future and the future is never promised! But what he's saying is there's a high probability that they will fit together, based on the parts that phil put together, and the history between players like Rose and Noah or Hornacek and fast guards....Thats his opinion, based on historical data, so I can't say he's wrong or right, it's just a fans opinion. I see nothing wrong with that. Same can be said about rose and noah haters, who point to their historical injury resume, and use that historical fact to project the future.

Not true. An individual player with an injury history is a much more self contained case than a team that lives in his imagination involving a dynamic set of variables, players and coaching staff. Saying the two are the same is a stretch. It's his opinion and I have no issue with him having an opinion. There is zero evidence that Rose, Noah and Jennings will fit better with Hornaceks schemes. You can't take a patchwork of assumptions and start drawing complex conclusions from it.

Please explain your statement about complex conclusions. Nothing I've presented is complex. It's as logical as 2+2=4!!! Yes there is always a chance it doesn't work but IMO it's very low.

Hornacek has proven he knows how to incorporate scoring PG's into an offense and make use of forwards and centers that can shoot from 3 or run PnR. So the players Phil has on this roster fit perfectly into what Hornacek specializes in. I've provided my proof in various threads so you're going to have to explain why I'm wrong about how these players should fit.

I think I already explained it - what you are projecting isn't 2+2=4, it's more in the range of a+b+c+?+?+d+e = 55 wins. That's all. Too many question marks and variables are open in your analysis. I admire your level of optimism for the Knicks and your patience and respectful posting here, but I have to admit your ability to predict/forecast is not on the same level as those other virtues. That doesn't make you a lesser poster, in fact you seem to be the key component of holding up one side of the common discourse on this forum.

The whole "fit" thing was starting to sound like a foregone conclusion, so I was merely pointing out the obvious. There is no formula for fit, it's one of those things that's hard to explain. Trying to make the case for fit using shooting range and percentage of shots made from various points on the floor while admirable in its creativity is not very reliable in my opinion.

Chill.

I really don't know what you mean. First off Rose and Lee FIT. Rose is ball dominant and Lee is a proven catch and shoot low usage SG! Melo and KP are not only catch and shoot capable but they have multiple skills and can do just about anything on the floor. Noah is a great PnR and defensive center that is one of the best post passers in the game. Explain to us how that doesn't fit! What can you point to that would suggest these players don't fit together as well as fit coach Hornacek! In fact Rose, Noah, Melo and KP have played Triangle and Lee has played in old school offenses as well. So even when talking about Triangle vs uptempo spread offense stuff, these players have proven capable.

I'm sorry but this has NOTHING to do with season predictions. It's pure LOGIC!!! For me to accept your take I'm afraid you'll have to do better. I could get deeper into the details as I've done in other threads to further my point but it's not even necessary. Even if you're talking about chemistry there's an argument in favor since Rose n Noah already have chemistry as does Melo n KP. That makes the process a bit easier. I find this all very funny cuz I bet no one would be saying this if we signed CP3!!!

rose being a "ball dominant" guard-- these are your own words now-- does not fit. you have just contradicted yourself.

WTF are you talking about??? You think Rose is not going to handle the ball a lot? You're F'n lost if you think he's brought in to just give up the ball and run around. Don't be silly. Rose is going to be used smartly by JH but he's gonna have the ball more than Lee for sure. Lee excels without having the ball. Now I'm not saying Rose is gonna needlessly handle the ball more than he already has in his career so I don't know what you're talking about.

I've already shown how Rose has played in his career even in recent years and Goran Dragic had a Usage of 24.5 and 21.8 under Hornacek. This was with Dragic starting next to Bledsoe avg'ing a usage of 24.9 and 23.7.

dk7th wrote:
there are too may conflicting agendas in terms offensive philosophies and the players brought in, and too much injury history, for you to be anything but skeptical about how the knicks will do. that's why most projection models have the knicks winning anywhere from 35-43 games.

Most projections aren't taking into account the things I've pointed out. Most don't recognize how these players fit into what Hornacek likes to do or how creative JH actually is as a coach that knows how to maximize the talent he has.

What offensive Philosophy issues are you talking about? What players clash with each other so much that this roster doesn't make sense? Explain to us how BJ doesn't fit!

How does Rose not fit? What is there to suggest Rose would have trouble executing Hornacek's schemes?

We know Lee is a solid 3nD SG, Melo and KP can do it all for their positions. Please break it down how these players don't fit!!!