crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

You're setting up a straw man argument here. Why? Is that necessary? Of course I'd rather have Rose on a one year audition than be stuck with Calderon. I am saying don't set your expectations too high with either Rose or Jennings. They add nothing defensively and neither make others around them better. If I am proven wrong I will be the first to admit it. But Rose and Jennings really won't move the needle as much as you wish and hope they will. How many wins do you predict?

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

100% agree, he's been passing like that since high school, and that's the cardinal sin of passing, and he does it on 85% of his passes. That's why phil loves tall PG's that can see of the defense. I guess he figures that he would much rather prefer a penetrating guard who can finish around the rim at this point.

that's going to be a tough habit to break

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

You're setting up a straw man argument here. Why? Is that necessary? Of course I'd rather have Rose on a one year audition than be stuck with Calderon. I am saying don't set your expectations too high with either Rose or Jennings. They add nothing defensively and neither make others around them better. If I am proven wrong I will be the first to admit it. But Rose and Jennings really won't move the needle as much as you wish and hope they will. How many wins do you predict?

They add nothing defensively? Are you saying Jennings and Rose are no better than Calderon on that side of the ball?

If you believe that Calderon is a better passer and defender than both Rose and Jennings? Then I'm wasting my time arguing that point. You'll have to wait and see for yourself, when the season starts. These guys play as much defense as every other PG in the league. The difference is every team will not target Rose and Jennings lack of defense like they did with Calderon all season.

I said neither of those things. More straw man stuff. You clearly have comprehension issues.

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

You're setting up a straw man argument here. Why? Is that necessary? Of course I'd rather have Rose on a one year audition than be stuck with Calderon. I am saying don't set your expectations too high with either Rose or Jennings. They add nothing defensively and neither make others around them better. If I am proven wrong I will be the first to admit it. But Rose and Jennings really won't move the needle as much as you wish and hope they will. How many wins do you predict?

They add nothing defensively? Are you saying Jennings and Rose are no better than Calderon on that side of the ball?

If you believe that Calderon is a better passer and defender than both Rose and Jennings? Then I'm wasting my time arguing that point. You'll have to wait and see for yourself, when the season starts. These guys play as much defense as every other PG in the league. The difference is every team will not target Rose and Jennings lack of defense like they did with Calderon all season.

I said neither of those things. More straw man stuff. You clearly have comprehension issues.

Can you read what you did say? And can you review what you have been saying for the past 2 months?

YOU could be added to the team, and compared to Calderone, YOU would have added something defensively. Let alone adding a partially freak athlete and Jennings.

The only points that are being made are for needle movement are for a legit starting star NBA PG who creates havoc in the paint and will OBVIOUSLY (if he can remain healthy) be able to make the elite shooters around him better by the open looks they are going to get. And a version of Jennings that will be coming off the bench with a huge chip on his shoulder and has 55-point level scoring in his not too distant past resume.

You're a negative realist, i get it. You want people to temper expectations. Check. But going from where we were, backcourt-wise, to where we are today, you really need to consider checking your negativity gauges.

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I remember watching this game. Rose was a warrior, hit a crazy off balance three to win the game. Should be noted he shot 10-26 though.

He's not the most efficient player. But I do feel the way he breaks down the defense and opens the floor will help the Knicks offense overall. He creates havoc in the paint and I'd bet he makes others more efficient because of that. I'm sure the analytics guys will say there's a stat for that, but I sort of doubt there's a stat that accurately reflects that.

no. his passes are most often made while in midair, a big no-no. the reason is that the mid-air passes will most often lack the timing, touch, and accuracy that are necessary for the recipient to be in rhythm to shoot. marbury and a host of other so-called "scoring point guards" hurt their teams in precisely this manner. placing the burden on the shooter to make a shot when that shooter has just received a poorly-delivered pass, requiring him to get out of any rhythm, is why the fg percentages will necessarily go down.

Maybe... we're both talking about eye test things without stats to back them up. I think we'll just have to wait and see how this collection of players fits together on the court.

Would you rather have a 27 yr old former MVP, injury prone and jumps when he passes....But still demands double teams and breaks down any NBA defense.

or

A pg approaching 40, who couldn't even crack the starting rotation on an international team. Jose didn't jump and pass mid flight....So based on that one skill, sounds like some fans rather have Jose back! No wonder it's so hard to satisfy knick fans......They all over the place. Some fans just search all day for all the biggest negatives on the team......But that negative tunnel vision can cause us to lack the vision of Phils strategy. To win now....and win later.

Rose jumps and pass
Jose doesn't jump and pass

By this theory, Jose would've been the better player for us. Too bad nobody (Noah, Lee, Jennings....) would've been here if we still had Jose.

You're setting up a straw man argument here. Why? Is that necessary? Of course I'd rather have Rose on a one year audition than be stuck with Calderon. I am saying don't set your expectations too high with either Rose or Jennings. They add nothing defensively and neither make others around them better. If I am proven wrong I will be the first to admit it. But Rose and Jennings really won't move the needle as much as you wish and hope they will. How many wins do you predict?

They add nothing defensively? Are you saying Jennings and Rose are no better than Calderon on that side of the ball?

If you believe that Calderon is a better passer and defender than both Rose and Jennings? Then I'm wasting my time arguing that point. You'll have to wait and see for yourself, when the season starts. These guys play as much defense as every other PG in the league. The difference is every team will not target Rose and Jennings lack of defense like they did with Calderon all season.

I said neither of those things. More straw man stuff. You clearly have comprehension issues.

Can you read what you did say? And can you review what you have been saying for the past 2 months?

YOU could be added to the team, and compared to Calderone, YOU would have added something defensively. Let alone adding a partially freak athlete and Jennings.

The only points that are being made are for needle movement are for a legit starting star NBA PG who creates havoc in the paint and will OBVIOUSLY (if he can remain healthy) be able to make the elite shooters around him better by the open looks they are going to get. And a version of Jennings that will be coming off the bench with a huge chip on his shoulder and has 55-point level scoring in his not too distant past resume.

You're a negative realist, i get it. You want people to temper expectations. Check. But going from where we were, backcourt-wise, to where we are today, you really need to consider checking your negativity gauges.

Some people are Glass Half Empty types, even when the glass is clearly 2 thirds FULL. I know Rose did not have a good overall year but the way he ended the year he was playing at a level much closer to what we would want to see and I don't think that was the best he can do. I expect that Rose will be better offensively and defensively with a solid summer of work on his body and skills. Being able to put in a solid summer of work without being limited by rehab from a surgery makes a big difference.

This is what we had last year:

#30 - Philadelphia 76ers: Ish Smith and Nik Stauskas
Backcourt Score: 3
Combined Points Per Game: 23.2
Combined Win Shares: 0.9
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -5.6
Combined VORP: -0.7

#29 - Brooklyn Nets: Jarrett Jack and Bojan Bogdanovic
Backcourt Score: 6
Combined Points Per Game: 24
Combined Win Shares: 1.8
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -4.8
Combined VORP: -0.6

#28 - Denver Nuggets: Emmanuel Mudiay and Gary Harris
Backcourt Score: 9
Combined Points Per Game: 25.1
Combined Win Shares: 1.9
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -4.2
Combined VORP: 0.1

#27 - Los Angeles Lakers: D'Angelo Russell and Jordan Clarkson
Backcourt Score: 12
Combined Points Per Game: 28.7
Combined Win Shares: 2.1
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -3.2
Combined VORP: 0.5

#26 - Sacramento Kings: Rajon Rondo and Ben McLemore
Backcourt Score: 19
Combined Points Per Game: 19.7
Combined Win Shares: 4.9
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -2.2
Combined VORP: 1.5

#25 - New York Knicks: Jose Calderon and Arron Afflalo
Backcourt Score: 19
Combined Points Per Game: 20.4
Combined Win Shares: 6.7
Combined Box Plus/Minus: -2.5
Combined VORP: 0.8
The New York Knicks started arguably the least compelling backcourt duo in the NBA this season. Calderon is a great outside shooter and solid passer, but he's a 34-year-old defensive sieve.

Afflalo hasn't come close to replicating the numbers he posted for Orlando in 2013-14 since leaving and suiting up for Denver, Portland and New York. He also was miffed about being demoted to the bench late in the season by interim head coach Kurt Rambis. It's fair to say this backcourt is not providing hope for the future in New York. Rather, they are stop-gap solutions until Phil Jackson can add more talent to the roster.

newyorknewyork wrote:Between Noah, Melo, Rose, Jennings all capable of getting 4-5 ast a game each. Rose doesn't really have to focus on creating for everyone all the time though, and he has a lot of space to work with. He has played majority with 2 lane blockers.

With the spacing KP, Melo, Lee could provide from the 4-2 a high energy high IQ player like Noah could have a field day as well. Teams have to worry about Rose penetration to go with the shooters and then Noah's clean up capabilities & passing. Noah has not really played with this much spacing from the forward positions before always being paired up with the Boozer's, Gibson's, Gasol's. Though sure he has played mins with stretches like Dunleavy and Mirotic. But KP alleviates him with spacing and defense length.

Between the potential spacing, ball movement, penetration and front court length offensively and defensively around the rim. We have a lot of elements in place.