but rose? rose's only real effective play is in pushing the ball in transition. note there's no mention of rose by herring of rose working the pick and roll, even though he sort of tries to piggyback the notion onto his mention of billups and fat felton. in halfcourt, you have to hope rose doesn't shoot too much, doesn't handle the ball too much, and plays passable defense. 12-14 shots max, doesn't hold the ball for more than 3-4 seconds, and for **** sake earn your salary by playing real defense.

also it'd be a plus if he doesn't become a distraction when his ass is hauled into court in october the first day of camp.

dk7th wrote:herring implies that melo has hurt his career because of conditioning issues. that's fair. the reality is that much of his underachieving is directly related to non-elite if not sub-standard conditioning, coasting in games, and just too many bad shots.

First off you forget to mention that Melo has had some offseason surgery which most suredly has an impact on how in shape you are coming into a season. Melo has also played thru pain many times in his career, which goes unmentioned. So yes there may have been some issues with Melo's conditioning over the years, but there have also been some legitimate health issues at the source of the problem and not necessarily due to laziness or a lack of dedication.

Carmelo Anthony told the media on Sunday that he quietly had surgery on his elbow and knee in May, after the New York Knicks were eliminated from the NBA playoffs.
By Tom Ziller @teamziller Sep 26, 2011, 8:54a

Carmelo Anthony to have surgery, out rest of season
Sam Amick and Jeff Zillgitt, USA TODAY Sports 3:12 p.m. EST February 18, 2015

dk7th wrote:but rose? rose's only real effective play is in pushing the ball in transition. note there's no mention of rose by herring of rose working the pick and roll, even though he sort of tries to piggyback the notion onto his mention of billups and fat felton. in halfcourt, you have to hope rose doesn't shoot too much, doesn't handle the ball too much, and plays passable defense. 12-14 shots max, doesn't hold the ball for more than 3-4 seconds, and for **** sake earn your salary by playing real defense.

also it'd be a plus if he doesn't become a distraction when his ass is hauled into court in october the first day of camp.

Regarding Rose, you keep making these points about his shooting and handling the ball but you aren't really focusing on the very clear facts about how Rose scores. You can keep making these statements over and over but that doesn't make them right. In a year where he was dealing with the effects of Orbital surgery and it clearly lowered his effectiveness, here's what he did in terms of his division of shot attempts.

	                        Field Goals	                        2 Point Field Goals	        3 Point Field Goals
General Range	GP	G	Freq	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	Freq	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	Freq	3PM	3PA	3P%
Catch and Shoot	66	54	11.1%	0.6	1.8	33.6	48.3	1.3%	0.1	0.2	35.7	9.8%	0.5	1.6	33.3
Pull Ups	66	65	42.0%	2.6	6.7	38.7	39.7	37.6%	2.4	6.0	41.0	4.4%	0.1	0.7	19.6
Less than 10 ft	66	65	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	48.7	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	0.0%	0.0	0.0	-
Other	        66	6	0.6%	0.0	0.1	33.3	41.7	0.4%	0.0	0.1	25.0	0.2%	0.0	0.0	50.0

If you really take a look at how Rose scores you will see that the BULK of his shots are 2pt range. 46% of his shots are within 10ft where he shoots 48.7% and averaged 7.3 shots inside of 10ft per game.

The other 42% of his shots are Pull Up Jumpers outside of 10ft, where he averaged 6 2pt shots a game at 41%. Collectively that is 84% of all the shots he took. Another 9.8% of his shots were Catch and Shoot 3's, where he shot 33.3% on those.

As for Rose handling the ball you talk like he's holding the ball for some inordinate amount of time. For a guard that is ball dominant for a reason, he's not a leader in terms of how long he holds the ball per touch.

                                                        Front   Time    Avg Sec Avg      PTS
                                                        CT      of      Per     Drib per Per    
Player	          Team	GP  W	L  MIN	PTS	TOUCHES	Touches Poss    Touch   Touch   Touch  
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43	36 30.7	18.8	76.1	65.6	7.6	5.99	6.15	0.248	
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40	35 35.7	25.1	89.0	77.8	8.4	5.64	5.59	0.282	
Chris Paul        LAC	74  50	24 32.7	19.5	87.5	74.5	8.0	5.52	5.47	0.223	
D.J. Augustin     DEN	62  35	27 19.0	7.5	40.1	35.9	3.7	5.52	6.13	0.188	
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55	25 34.4	23.5	88.8	77.7	8.1	5.44	5.41	0.264	
Steve Blake       DET	58  34	24 17.0	4.4	43.4	38.3	3.9	5.41	5.86	0.101	
Ricky Rubio       MIN	76  28	48 30.6	10.1	78.7	67.1	7.0	5.30	5.52	0.128	
Brian Roberts     POR	51  26	25 9.2	4.0	19.6	18.2	1.7	5.27	5.42	0.205	
Tony Parker       SAS	72  59	13 27.5	11.9	68.9	60.8	5.9	5.16	5.71	0.173	
Kemba Walker      CHA	81  47	34 35.6	20.9	91.1	80.9	7.8	5.15	5.31	0.229	
Tim Frazier       NOP	51  25	26 14.5	5.1	35.5	30.3	3.0	5.05	5.04	0.144	
Aaron Brooks      CHI	69  36	33 16.1	7.1	34.9	31.4	2.9	5.02	5.26	0.204	
Cameron Payne     OKC	57  44	13 12.2	5.0	27.2	23.1	2.3	5.02	4.97	0.182	
Mike Conley       MEM	56  33	23 31.4	15.3	80.8	70.0	6.7	4.97	4.99	0.189	
Cory Joseph       TOR	79  53	26 25.5	8.3	58.7	51.2	4.9	4.95	5.74	0.142	
Mario Chalmers    MIA	61  38	23 22.5	10.3	54.6	45.0	4.5	4.94	5.12	0.189	
Shane Larkin      BKN	78  20	58 22.4	7.3	55.5	48.3	4.6	4.94	5.35	0.131	
Donald Sloan      BKN	61  13	48 21.6	7.0	53.9	47.1	4.3	4.82	4.85	0.129	
Rajon Rondo       SAC	71  29	42 35.4	12.0	95.0	76.2	7.5	4.75	4.67	0.127	
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37	16 31.5	19.6	74.5	63.8	5.8	4.71	4.68	0.264	
Dennis Schroder   ATL	80  47	33 20.3	11.0	54.5	49.7	4.3	4.71	4.55	0.202	
Goran Dragic      MIA	72  44	28 32.8	14.1	82.4	71.6	6.4	4.69	5.00	0.172	
John Wall         WAS	77  37	40 36.2	19.9	98.7	85.9	7.7	4.69	4.43	0.201	
Jose Juan Barea   DAL	74  38	36 22.5	10.9	56.3	47.7	4.4	4.68	5.07	0.194	
Emmanuel Mudiay   DEN	68  29	39 30.4	12.8	74.0	65.5	5.7	4.66	4.46	0.173	
M Carter-Williams MIL	54  21	33 30.5	11.5	73.2	59.5	5.7	4.66	4.22	0.158	
Elfrid Payton     ORL	72  32	40 29.5	10.8	74.1	65.5	5.7	4.63	4.69	0.145	
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47	32 28.5	15.7	71.1	65.1	5.4	4.58	4.85	0.221	
Shabazz Napier    ORL	55  23	32 10.9	3.7	24.9	22.4	1.9	4.53	4.44	0.148	
D'Angelo Russell  LAL	80  17	63 28.2	13.2	65.6	53.6	4.9	4.50	4.09	0.201	
Marcelo Huertas   LAL	53  8	45 16.4	4.5	36.9	30.1	2.8	4.49	4.38	0.121	
Ty Lawson         IND	66  31	35 21.4	5.7	43.1	37.0	3.2	4.48	4.34	0.131	
James Harden      HOU	82  41	41 38.1	29.0	85.1	68.3	6.3	4.43	3.84	0.340	
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32	34 31.8	16.4	77.2	66.9	5.7	4.41	4.05	0.212

EwingsGlass wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:herring implies that melo has hurt his career because of conditioning issues. that's fair. the reality is that much of his underachieving is directly related to non-elite if not sub-standard conditioning, coasting in games, and just too many bad shots.

First off you forget to mention that Melo has had some offseason surgery which most suredly has an impact on how in shape you are coming into a season. Melo has also played thru pain many times in his career, which goes unmentioned. So yes there may have been some issues with Melo's conditioning over the years, but there have also been some legitimate health issues at the source of the problem and not necessarily due to laziness or a lack of dedication.

Carmelo Anthony told the media on Sunday that he quietly had surgery on his elbow and knee in May, after the New York Knicks were eliminated from the NBA playoffs.
By Tom Ziller @teamziller Sep 26, 2011, 8:54a

Carmelo Anthony to have surgery, out rest of season
Sam Amick and Jeff Zillgitt, USA TODAY Sports 3:12 p.m. EST February 18, 2015

dk7th wrote:but rose? rose's only real effective play is in pushing the ball in transition. note there's no mention of rose by herring of rose working the pick and roll, even though he sort of tries to piggyback the notion onto his mention of billups and fat felton. in halfcourt, you have to hope rose doesn't shoot too much, doesn't handle the ball too much, and plays passable defense. 12-14 shots max, doesn't hold the ball for more than 3-4 seconds, and for **** sake earn your salary by playing real defense.

also it'd be a plus if he doesn't become a distraction when his ass is hauled into court in october the first day of camp.

Regarding Rose, you keep making these points about his shooting and handling the ball but you aren't really focusing on the very clear facts about how Rose scores. You can keep making these statements over and over but that doesn't make them right. In a year where he was dealing with the effects of Orbital surgery and it clearly lowered his effectiveness, here's what he did in terms of his division of shot attempts.

	                        Field Goals	                        2 Point Field Goals	        3 Point Field Goals
General Range	GP	G	Freq	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	Freq	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	Freq	3PM	3PA	3P%
Catch and Shoot	66	54	11.1%	0.6	1.8	33.6	48.3	1.3%	0.1	0.2	35.7	9.8%	0.5	1.6	33.3
Pull Ups	66	65	42.0%	2.6	6.7	38.7	39.7	37.6%	2.4	6.0	41.0	4.4%	0.1	0.7	19.6
Less than 10 ft	66	65	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	48.7	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	0.0%	0.0	0.0	-
Other	        66	6	0.6%	0.0	0.1	33.3	41.7	0.4%	0.0	0.1	25.0	0.2%	0.0	0.0	50.0

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/shots/

If you really take a look at how Rose scores you will see that the BULK of his shots are 2pt range. 46% of his shots are within 10ft where he shoots 48.7% and averaged 7.3 shots inside of 10ft per game.

The other 42% of his shots are Pull Up Jumpers outside of 10ft, where he averaged 6 2pt shots a game at 41%. Collectively that is 84% of all the shots he took. Another 9.8% of his shots were Catch and Shoot 3's, where he shot 33.3% on those.

As for Rose handling the ball you talk like he's holding the ball for some inordinate amount of time. For a guard that is ball dominant for a reason, he's not a leader in terms of how long he holds the ball per touch.

                                                        Front   Time    Avg Sec Avg      PTS
                                                        CT      of      Per     Drib per Per    
Player	          Team	GP  W	L  MIN	PTS	TOUCHES	Touches Poss    Touch   Touch   Touch  
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43	36 30.7	18.8	76.1	65.6	7.6	5.99	6.15	0.248	
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40	35 35.7	25.1	89.0	77.8	8.4	5.64	5.59	0.282	
Chris Paul        LAC	74  50	24 32.7	19.5	87.5	74.5	8.0	5.52	5.47	0.223	
D.J. Augustin     DEN	62  35	27 19.0	7.5	40.1	35.9	3.7	5.52	6.13	0.188	
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55	25 34.4	23.5	88.8	77.7	8.1	5.44	5.41	0.264	
Steve Blake       DET	58  34	24 17.0	4.4	43.4	38.3	3.9	5.41	5.86	0.101	
Ricky Rubio       MIN	76  28	48 30.6	10.1	78.7	67.1	7.0	5.30	5.52	0.128	
Brian Roberts     POR	51  26	25 9.2	4.0	19.6	18.2	1.7	5.27	5.42	0.205	
Tony Parker       SAS	72  59	13 27.5	11.9	68.9	60.8	5.9	5.16	5.71	0.173	
Kemba Walker      CHA	81  47	34 35.6	20.9	91.1	80.9	7.8	5.15	5.31	0.229	
Tim Frazier       NOP	51  25	26 14.5	5.1	35.5	30.3	3.0	5.05	5.04	0.144	
Aaron Brooks      CHI	69  36	33 16.1	7.1	34.9	31.4	2.9	5.02	5.26	0.204	
Cameron Payne     OKC	57  44	13 12.2	5.0	27.2	23.1	2.3	5.02	4.97	0.182	
Mike Conley       MEM	56  33	23 31.4	15.3	80.8	70.0	6.7	4.97	4.99	0.189	
Cory Joseph       TOR	79  53	26 25.5	8.3	58.7	51.2	4.9	4.95	5.74	0.142	
Mario Chalmers    MIA	61  38	23 22.5	10.3	54.6	45.0	4.5	4.94	5.12	0.189	
Shane Larkin      BKN	78  20	58 22.4	7.3	55.5	48.3	4.6	4.94	5.35	0.131	
Donald Sloan      BKN	61  13	48 21.6	7.0	53.9	47.1	4.3	4.82	4.85	0.129	
Rajon Rondo       SAC	71  29	42 35.4	12.0	95.0	76.2	7.5	4.75	4.67	0.127	
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37	16 31.5	19.6	74.5	63.8	5.8	4.71	4.68	0.264	
Dennis Schroder   ATL	80  47	33 20.3	11.0	54.5	49.7	4.3	4.71	4.55	0.202	
Goran Dragic      MIA	72  44	28 32.8	14.1	82.4	71.6	6.4	4.69	5.00	0.172	
John Wall         WAS	77  37	40 36.2	19.9	98.7	85.9	7.7	4.69	4.43	0.201	
Jose Juan Barea   DAL	74  38	36 22.5	10.9	56.3	47.7	4.4	4.68	5.07	0.194	
Emmanuel Mudiay   DEN	68  29	39 30.4	12.8	74.0	65.5	5.7	4.66	4.46	0.173	
M Carter-Williams MIL	54  21	33 30.5	11.5	73.2	59.5	5.7	4.66	4.22	0.158	
Elfrid Payton     ORL	72  32	40 29.5	10.8	74.1	65.5	5.7	4.63	4.69	0.145	
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47	32 28.5	15.7	71.1	65.1	5.4	4.58	4.85	0.221	
Shabazz Napier    ORL	55  23	32 10.9	3.7	24.9	22.4	1.9	4.53	4.44	0.148	
D'Angelo Russell  LAL	80  17	63 28.2	13.2	65.6	53.6	4.9	4.50	4.09	0.201	
Marcelo Huertas   LAL	53  8	45 16.4	4.5	36.9	30.1	2.8	4.49	4.38	0.121	
Ty Lawson         IND	66  31	35 21.4	5.7	43.1	37.0	3.2	4.48	4.34	0.131	
James Harden      HOU	82  41	41 38.1	29.0	85.1	68.3	6.3	4.43	3.84	0.340	
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32	34 31.8	16.4	77.2	66.9	5.7	4.41	4.05	0.212

Why you always gotta use facts and stats to win arguments? Random cat memes should be more than sufficient to win any argument.

Yeah, i've never understood nix's infatuation with facts and stats that are actually related to backing up the topic being discussed, when you can always just make bold, brilliant statements about how our upgrade at PG is not Tony Parker.

Next up, our resident evil BB genius will tell you, with a link, how Courtney Lee doesn't compare to Jerry West in his prime.

Or maybe how much better Lebron is at recovering from injuries than Melo is.

Let's see how nix handles those.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:herring implies that melo has hurt his career because of conditioning issues. that's fair. the reality is that much of his underachieving is directly related to non-elite if not sub-standard conditioning, coasting in games, and just too many bad shots.

First off you forget to mention that Melo has had some offseason surgery which most suredly has an impact on how in shape you are coming into a season. Melo has also played thru pain many times in his career, which goes unmentioned. So yes there may have been some issues with Melo's conditioning over the years, but there have also been some legitimate health issues at the source of the problem and not necessarily due to laziness or a lack of dedication.

Carmelo Anthony told the media on Sunday that he quietly had surgery on his elbow and knee in May, after the New York Knicks were eliminated from the NBA playoffs.
By Tom Ziller @teamziller Sep 26, 2011, 8:54a

Carmelo Anthony to have surgery, out rest of season
Sam Amick and Jeff Zillgitt, USA TODAY Sports 3:12 p.m. EST February 18, 2015

dk7th wrote:but rose? rose's only real effective play is in pushing the ball in transition. note there's no mention of rose by herring of rose working the pick and roll, even though he sort of tries to piggyback the notion onto his mention of billups and fat felton. in halfcourt, you have to hope rose doesn't shoot too much, doesn't handle the ball too much, and plays passable defense. 12-14 shots max, doesn't hold the ball for more than 3-4 seconds, and for **** sake earn your salary by playing real defense.

also it'd be a plus if he doesn't become a distraction when his ass is hauled into court in october the first day of camp.

Regarding Rose, you keep making these points about his shooting and handling the ball but you aren't really focusing on the very clear facts about how Rose scores. You can keep making these statements over and over but that doesn't make them right. In a year where he was dealing with the effects of Orbital surgery and it clearly lowered his effectiveness, here's what he did in terms of his division of shot attempts.

	                        Field Goals	                        2 Point Field Goals	        3 Point Field Goals
General Range	GP	G	Freq	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	Freq	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	Freq	3PM	3PA	3P%
Catch and Shoot	66	54	11.1%	0.6	1.8	33.6	48.3	1.3%	0.1	0.2	35.7	9.8%	0.5	1.6	33.3
Pull Ups	66	65	42.0%	2.6	6.7	38.7	39.7	37.6%	2.4	6.0	41.0	4.4%	0.1	0.7	19.6
Less than 10 ft	66	65	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	48.7	46.4%	3.6	7.3	48.7	0.0%	0.0	0.0	-
Other	        66	6	0.6%	0.0	0.1	33.3	41.7	0.4%	0.0	0.1	25.0	0.2%	0.0	0.0	50.0

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/shots/

If you really take a look at how Rose scores you will see that the BULK of his shots are 2pt range. 46% of his shots are within 10ft where he shoots 48.7% and averaged 7.3 shots inside of 10ft per game.

The other 42% of his shots are Pull Up Jumpers outside of 10ft, where he averaged 6 2pt shots a game at 41%. Collectively that is 84% of all the shots he took. Another 9.8% of his shots were Catch and Shoot 3's, where he shot 33.3% on those.

As for Rose handling the ball you talk like he's holding the ball for some inordinate amount of time. For a guard that is ball dominant for a reason, he's not a leader in terms of how long he holds the ball per touch.

Look at the FG% for every shot he took last year and notice the TYPE of shots he was most successful with.

                                                        Front   Time    Avg Sec Avg      PTS
                                                        CT      of      Per     Drib per Per    
Player	          Team	GP  W	L  MIN	PTS	TOUCHES	Touches Poss    Touch   Touch   Touch  
Reggie Jackson    DET	79  43	36 30.7	18.8	76.1	65.6	7.6	5.99	6.15	0.248	
Damian Lillard    POR	75  40	35 35.7	25.1	89.0	77.8	8.4	5.64	5.59	0.282	
Chris Paul        LAC	74  50	24 32.7	19.5	87.5	74.5	8.0	5.52	5.47	0.223	
D.J. Augustin     DEN	62  35	27 19.0	7.5	40.1	35.9	3.7	5.52	6.13	0.188	
Russell Westbrook OKC	80  55	25 34.4	23.5	88.8	77.7	8.1	5.44	5.41	0.264	
Steve Blake       DET	58  34	24 17.0	4.4	43.4	38.3	3.9	5.41	5.86	0.101	
Ricky Rubio       MIN	76  28	48 30.6	10.1	78.7	67.1	7.0	5.30	5.52	0.128	
Brian Roberts     POR	51  26	25 9.2	4.0	19.6	18.2	1.7	5.27	5.42	0.205	
Tony Parker       SAS	72  59	13 27.5	11.9	68.9	60.8	5.9	5.16	5.71	0.173	
Kemba Walker      CHA	81  47	34 35.6	20.9	91.1	80.9	7.8	5.15	5.31	0.229	
Tim Frazier       NOP	51  25	26 14.5	5.1	35.5	30.3	3.0	5.05	5.04	0.144	
Aaron Brooks      CHI	69  36	33 16.1	7.1	34.9	31.4	2.9	5.02	5.26	0.204	
Cameron Payne     OKC	57  44	13 12.2	5.0	27.2	23.1	2.3	5.02	4.97	0.182	
Mike Conley       MEM	56  33	23 31.4	15.3	80.8	70.0	6.7	4.97	4.99	0.189	
Cory Joseph       TOR	79  53	26 25.5	8.3	58.7	51.2	4.9	4.95	5.74	0.142	
Mario Chalmers    MIA	61  38	23 22.5	10.3	54.6	45.0	4.5	4.94	5.12	0.189	
Shane Larkin      BKN	78  20	58 22.4	7.3	55.5	48.3	4.6	4.94	5.35	0.131	
Donald Sloan      BKN	61  13	48 21.6	7.0	53.9	47.1	4.3	4.82	4.85	0.129	
Rajon Rondo       SAC	71  29	42 35.4	12.0	95.0	76.2	7.5	4.75	4.67	0.127	
Kyrie Irving      CLE	53  37	16 31.5	19.6	74.5	63.8	5.8	4.71	4.68	0.264	
Dennis Schroder   ATL	80  47	33 20.3	11.0	54.5	49.7	4.3	4.71	4.55	0.202	
Goran Dragic      MIA	72  44	28 32.8	14.1	82.4	71.6	6.4	4.69	5.00	0.172	
John Wall         WAS	77  37	40 36.2	19.9	98.7	85.9	7.7	4.69	4.43	0.201	
Jose Juan Barea   DAL	74  38	36 22.5	10.9	56.3	47.7	4.4	4.68	5.07	0.194	
Emmanuel Mudiay   DEN	68  29	39 30.4	12.8	74.0	65.5	5.7	4.66	4.46	0.173	
M Carter-Williams MIL	54  21	33 30.5	11.5	73.2	59.5	5.7	4.66	4.22	0.158	
Elfrid Payton     ORL	72  32	40 29.5	10.8	74.1	65.5	5.7	4.63	4.69	0.145	
Jeff Teague       ATL	79  47	32 28.5	15.7	71.1	65.1	5.4	4.58	4.85	0.221	
Shabazz Napier    ORL	55  23	32 10.9	3.7	24.9	22.4	1.9	4.53	4.44	0.148	
D'Angelo Russell  LAL	80  17	63 28.2	13.2	65.6	53.6	4.9	4.50	4.09	0.201	
Marcelo Huertas   LAL	53  8	45 16.4	4.5	36.9	30.1	2.8	4.49	4.38	0.121	
Ty Lawson         IND	66  31	35 21.4	5.7	43.1	37.0	3.2	4.48	4.34	0.131	
James Harden      HOU	82  41	41 38.1	29.0	85.1	68.3	6.3	4.43	3.84	0.340	
Derrick Rose      CHI	66  32	34 31.8	16.4	77.2	66.9	5.7	4.41	4.05	0.212

you enjoy blurring distinctions to make a point. i am not talking about injuries being the reason for his not being in peak condition, i am talking about an overall mindset of being comfortable at the expense of the rigors it requires to be in peak condition. you cannot conflate legitimate injury with a mindset of laziness. and now that he is older, being in shape going into the season will be a boon to the knicks. "there may have been issues with melo's conditioning over the years" is essentially a gloss.

so far as rose is concerned, it's what he does with the ball for those 4.41 seconds.

1) does he take bad or difficult shots? the answer is yes. taking bad shots is demoralizing for teammates and destroys potential synergy.

2) is he making plays for others, ie passing the ball without leaving his feet and making passes that are accurate and in the shooter's rhythm? no he sucks at that, and the result is-- i am guessing here-- is that his passes drive DOWN his teammates fg%, even as he accumulates a measly 5 assists a game. that too is demoralizing.

3) also: does he defend his position with gusto and real effort? no he is an AWFUL DEFENDER, something you are content to gloss over with "he'll have help." well, if the turnstile backcourt players we have had were demoralizing and ruinous in the past, does rose somehow get exempted from this same dynamic? according to you he does, because you don't want to face facts with him.

4) finally: is he involved in a civil suit that is concurrent with the opening of preseason as well as his 28th birthday? yes, and you know he will not be settling out of court. this will have a distracting and demoralizing effect on the team. or do you think that he and his teammates will be able to tune this out?

My point about Melo is that you can only point to a few seasons recently where Melo has been accused of not being in great shape. This wasn't the case when he was young in Denver. So you're really talking about since being a Knick and some of his conditioning issues have been due to Injury and Subsequent Surgery.

Your issues with Rose offensively still ignores the way that Rose plays. Your 1st point above about Rose taking difficult shots and it being demoralizing for his teammates, is just a wild assumption that isn't supported by facts. Rose was actually pretty efficient on his Drives and shots on the move. It was his regular Jump Shot that was the main source of his issues this year and much of that came early on in the season when he was dealing with the Orbital Surgery issues.

                                                                                                FGM     FGM
Shot Type Detail	        FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	eFG%	BLKA	%AST    %UAST
Cutting Layup Shot	        6	9	66.7	0	0	0.0	66.7	0	83.3	16.7
Driving Bank Hook Shot	        1	1	100	0	0	0.0	100	0	0.0	100
Driving Bank shot	        8	10	80.0	0	0	0.0	80.0	0	12.5	87.5
Driving Finger Roll Layup Shot	17	23	73.9	0	0	0.0	73.9	0	5.9	94.1
Driving Floating Bank Jump Shot	5	7	71.4	0	0	0.0	71.4	0	20.0	80.0
Driving Floating Jump Shot	18	29	62.1	0	0	0.0	62.1	0	50.0	50.0
Driving Hook Shot	        3	3	100	0	0	0.0	100	0	33.3	66.7
Driving Layup Shot	        95	170	55.9	0	0	0.0	55.9	15	20.0	80.0
Driving Reverse Layup Shot	13	20	65.0	0	0	0.0	65.0	2	30.8	69.2
Dunk Shot	                1	1	100	0	0	0.0	100	0	100	0.0
Fadeaway Bank shot	        3	4	75.0	0	0	0.0	75.0	0	0.0	100
Fadeaway Jump Shot	        3	5	60.0	0	0	0.0	60.0	0	33.3	66.7
Floating Jump shot	        37	72	51.4	0	0	0.0	51.4	2	18.9	81.1
Hook Shot	                0	1	0.0	0	0	0.0	0.0	0	0.0	0.0
Jump Bank Shot	                25	38	65.8	0	0	0.0	65.8	0	16.0	84.0
                                Total = 393
Jump Shot	                103	396	26.0	44	145	30.3	31.6	19	53.4	46.6
Layup Shot	                13	74	17.6	0	0	0.0	17.6	28	53.8	46.2
Pullup Bank shot	        9	16	56.3	0	0	0.0	56.3	0	11.1	88.9
Pullup Jump shot	        28	57	49.1	0	4	0.0	49.1	1	10.7	89.3
Putback Layup Shot	        3	5	60.0	0	0	0.0	60.0	0	0.0	100
Reverse Layup Shot	        4	8	50.0	0	0	0.0	50.0	3	0.0	100
Running Finger Roll Layup Shot	1	2	50.0	0	0	0.0	50.0	1	100	0.0
                                Total = 88
Running Jump Shot	        6	16	37.5	0	1	0.0	37.5	2	50.0	50.0
Running Layup Shot	        15	28	53.6	0	0	0.0	53.6	3	26.7	73.3
Running Pull-Up Jump Shot	2	2	100	0	0	0.0	100	0	0.0	100
Running Reverse Layup Shot	0	2	0.0	0	0	0.0	0.0	0	0.0	0.0
Step Back Bank Jump Shot	4	6	66.7	0	0	0.0	66.7	0	25.0	75.0
Step Back Jump shot	        13	27	48.1	0	0	0.0	48.1	0	7.7	92.3
Tip Layup Shot	                1	2	50.0	0	0	0.0	50.0	0	0.0	100
Turnaround Fadeaway shot	1	2	50.0	0	0	0.0	50.0	0	0.0	100
Turnaround Hook Shot	        1	3	33.3	0	0	0.0	33.3	0	0.0	100
Turnaround Jump Shot	        8	9	88.9	0	0	0.0	88.9	0	0.0	100
                                Total = 97

So on the so called "difficult" shots Rose was very efficient. My contention is that Rose should improve on these Jump Shot numbers this coming season. For one thing he won't be coming off Orbital Surgery and he's been able to work on his shot for longer minus any surgery or Playoffs.

Vmart wrote:I don't see the correlation between Olympics and NBA. Lesser competition closer three point line. Playing with a team of all stars. Torrid? The competition is more like Horrid.

Melo has had very good starts coming off Olympic runs, so it's understandable where the interest is in how he might play in the regular NBA season coming off another Olympics. I think there's something positive from a mental standpoint that happens when Melo comes off Olympic play. His frame of mind is different in terms of running the floor and looking for more Catch and Shoot and early offense. It's not so much about the strength of competition as it is the approach to the game and his being in rhythm.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't see the correlation between Olympics and NBA. Lesser competition closer three point line. Playing with a team of all stars. Torrid? The competition is more like Horrid.

When was the last time you saw a game? Anyone who still thinks the international players are made up of the 2004 Nigerian team is just not informed. Our starting PG from last year doesn't even play on Spain. Most of the international teams have NBA pros, good ones, and have been playing together for a long time. If you know basketball, then you know that's more important than paper teams.