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Melo and Rose
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yellowboy90
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7/13/2016  9:16 PM
Herring has an article up about how things could be with the two and the team

http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-derrick-rose-and-carmelo-anthony-can-both-thrive-1468447612

y Chris Herring
July 13, 2016 6:06 p.m. ET
1 COMMENTS

When Knicks team president Phil Jackson sat down with Carmelo Anthony this summer and asked for his take on the state of the franchise, the 32-year-old was clear in identifying the biggest source of trouble.

“The first priority [he stated] was to get a point guard,” Jackson said during last week’s news conference, when the team introduced Joakim Noah, Courtney Lee and Brandon Jennings.

Jackson didn’t take long to act on Anthony’s wish, orchestrating a low-risk trade for former MVP Derrick Rose, the Chicago Bulls’ star-crossed floor general entering the final year of his deal.

The swap excited Anthony, who texted Rose when rumors of the trade first emerged. And Rose, who acknowledged he’d previously let his mind wander to picture what it’d be like to have Anthony as a teammate in Chicago, said he can’t wait to get to work with the star forward.

A key question that could go a long way in determining how successful the Knicks are next season, is how the alpha-dog scorers will function together on offense; particularly with budding star Kristaps Porzingis also needing touches to continue his offensive growth.

Regardless of whether the duo plays well, one thing is clear: New York will almost certainly play faster with Rose leading the offense. The shift might have taken place anyway, with new coach Jeff Hornacek and his track record with the Suns. But the addition of Rose should cement that notion. The Bulls played at the 10th-fastest pace in the league with Rose on the court, up from the equivalent of the 10th-slowest pace when he wasn’t on the court.

His ability to transform the Knicks in that way explains why Hornacek has mentioned, twice, needing Anthony to run harder following opponents’ misses. Rose was very inefficient in transition scenarios last season—with his double vision from a preseason orbital fracture likely playing a role—struggling to take care of the ball, drawing fouls or finishing at the rim.

But he was solid at finding open perimeter shooters, like Mike Dunleavy and Doug McDermott, before defenses were set. At his best, in the 2012 Olympics, and then again during the 2012 season, Anthony was a devastating trailer in transition. Committing to running the floor with Rose could earn him similar looks when opponents are a step late in identifying their fast break assignments.

When the Knicks aren’t able to get quick looks, the fit could become a bit more complicated.

While both players take a considerable amount of midrange jumpers—Anthony took an NBA-high 8.4 shots from there among qualifying players, and Rose took 5.3 attempts a night—they don’t share sweet spots, meaning their styles shouldn’t necessarily clash the way that Anthony and Jeremy Lin did at times; partly because both men favored playing from the right.

Rose was more comfortable on the left, taking about 40% of his outside jumpers from there. Anthony, by contrast, took nearly 48% of his outside jumpers from the right, per Stats LLC.

This doesn’t guarantee anything, obviously. Jimmy Butler, whose playmaking style and ascension hastened Rose’s exit in Chicago, also preferred playing from the right, yet never fit with him. There are two key differences in Anthony’s case, though. First, he’s a far superior shooter to Butler. Secondly, Anthony—though he likes to isolate—unloads the ball a bit quicker than Butler. (Anthony held it 2.97 seconds per touch last year, while Butler, as an occasional lead ballhandler, possessed it an average of 3.64 seconds, per SportVU player-tracking technology.)

Aside from his health, Rose’s ability to penetrate to and convert at the rim—particularly with the spacing he’ll get with lineups featuring Porzingis at center—will dictate how the Knicks perform on offense more than any other factor.

Rose should be a perfect running mate for a player like Anthony. He can create good looks for himself—after the All-Star break, he shot a blistering 56% when he possessed the ball for more than six seconds—and also force enough help to where teammates get open as a result. That could be a game-changer for Anthony, who’s been one of the NBA’s best 3-point shooters when left wide-open, hitting 47.1% (106-of-225) of such looks the past three seasons.

But while Rose will occasionally make the cross-court, home-run pass, and sometimes makes nifty ones while in mid-air, he doesn’t hit perimeter shooters nearly as frequently as other drive-and-kick point guards. In Chicago, Rose more commonly would drive after getting a pick, then kick the ball back to his screener—generally either Joakim Noah or Pau Gasol—at the elbow. The big man would then generally either shoot, or scan the floor for the open man, who was often beyond the arc. (It’s easy to imagine Porzingis in this facilitating role, similar to Gasol; perhaps with even more spacing.)

This explains why Rose ranked among NBA leaders in hockey assists—plays where he feeds the player who ultimately gets credited with the assist—with 1.3 per game despite owning modest assist totals in a traditional sense. Noah and Gasol assisted McDermott, Dunleavy and Nikola Mirotic more than Rose (and did so with fewer minutes than Rose had with those players, in some cases), but part of that was him making the simple play rather than the spectacular one.

Clutch situations will bring about another question for the Knicks, given Rose and Anthony’s star mentalities. Anthony used 36.2% of the Knicks’ possessions in “clutch” scenarios—when the game was separated by five points or fewer, with five minutes or less to play—while Rose used 31.7% of the Bulls’ possessions. Both ranked among the NBA’s 20 stingiest players of those who saw action in at least 30 close games last season.

Ideally, the Knicks would use the two of them together in screen-roll action—or one of them, along with Porzingis—to get defenders moving instead of settling for the stagnant, contested looks Anthony has gotten on his own in recent years.

One way or another, though, the Knicks should have real options with Rose in the fold. It’s just a matter of figuring out how to get him and Anthony working in tandem, as opposed to having the two All-Stars take turns running the offense.

AUTOADVERT
mreinman
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7/13/2016  10:01 PM
good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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7/13/2016  10:07 PM
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

Yeah I think KP will get a lot more easy looks this year. I can really see him scoring 18-20ppg this season. I think his three point shot will be better too as he gets better looks.

This is one thing that the advanced stats do not really show - the ability for Rose to get guys open looks even off one or two passes. I sort of wish the NBA counted or made the hockey assist stat more visible. Melo and Rose are both good at it because they draw so much help that swinging the ball usually means one or two passes creates a wide open look.

¿ △ ?
mreinman
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7/13/2016  10:13 PM
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

Yeah I think KP will get a lot more easy looks this year. I can really see him scoring 18-20ppg this season. I think his three point shot will be better too as he gets better looks.

This is one thing that the advanced stats do not really show - the ability for Rose to get guys open looks even off one or two passes. I sort of wish the NBA counted or made the hockey assist stat more visible. Melo and Rose are both good at it because they draw so much help that swinging the ball usually means one or two passes creates a wide open look.

of course that data is tracked, we just are privy to very little of it. Teams with the top analytics departments have so much more data than what is openly shared.

And NBA.com has lots of interesting passing stats though the UI is pretty awful.

I am looking for your boy BJ to be our dark horse.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
nixluva
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7/13/2016  10:22 PM
Good Article. I could've wrote it! I agree with his assessment. The overall mix of skills and strengths between the starters on this Knicks team should lead to some very good basketball. Hornacek is probably chomping at the bit waiting to get these guys in the gym. For a coach like him that's all you want is this kind of versatility on your roster. It's not just about the Rose, Melo and KP dynamic, but overall the role players we now have should be able to fulfill those roles to a higher degree.

IMO the key is for all these guys to relax and let the ball and player movement flow!!! They will get GREAT shots if they just MOVE and PASS the ball. With this talent I don't see how they can't be very effective. JH will have them running the floor and looking for quick hit PnR plays. No more super slow motion bringing it up and then giving it to RoLo who slows it down to his speed or Grant hesitating and forcing post feeds rather than looking to penetrate. Just being aggressive and moving quicker will make a huge difference.

Melo has proven he can play this way as he's done it with the Olympic Team and on the Knicks 54 win team. Quick Melo is a real thing and playing with guys that are playing fast will bring that out of him.

knicks1248
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7/13/2016  10:40 PM
Rose in the triangle is going to be the biggest question mark IMO..There hasn't been a PG of his caliber in this system EVER
ES
Cartman718
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7/14/2016  1:02 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Rose in the triangle is going to be the biggest question mark IMO..There hasn't been a PG of his caliber in this system EVER

haven't you heard? we'll be running very little triangle. ::looks at nix::

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Bonn1997
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7/14/2016  8:14 AM
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.


Yeah, this was a good article with good data on the upside but it didn't give as much detail about the downside. Hopefully JH can get them to cut out those low percentage mid range shots.
Bonn1997
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7/14/2016  8:18 AM
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

Yeah I think KP will get a lot more easy looks this year. I can really see him scoring 18-20ppg this season. I think his three point shot will be better too as he gets better looks.

This is one thing that the advanced stats do not really show - the ability for Rose to get guys open looks even off one or two passes. I sort of wish the NBA counted or made the hockey assist stat more visible. Melo and Rose are both good at it because they draw so much help that swinging the ball usually means one or two passes creates a wide open look.

of course that data is tracked, we just are privy to very little of it. Teams with the top analytics departments have so much more data than what is openly shared.

And NBA.com has lots of interesting passing stats though the UI is pretty awful.

I am looking for your boy BJ to be our dark horse.


Hockey assists (called "secondary AST") are available here. If you look at the other columns, you'll see a lot of interesting info. there too.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1
BigRedDog
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7/14/2016  8:57 AM
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
Cartman718
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7/14/2016  9:07 AM
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Agree, all of us including mreinman posted about that all season long.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
fishmike
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7/14/2016  9:23 AM
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
yellowboy90
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7/14/2016  9:39 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

JesseDark
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7/14/2016  9:58 AM
Seeing the title of this thread made come up with a new nickname for the garden - Melrose Place. See what I did there
Bring back dee-fense
crzymdups
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7/14/2016  10:03 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

Yeah I think KP will get a lot more easy looks this year. I can really see him scoring 18-20ppg this season. I think his three point shot will be better too as he gets better looks.

This is one thing that the advanced stats do not really show - the ability for Rose to get guys open looks even off one or two passes. I sort of wish the NBA counted or made the hockey assist stat more visible. Melo and Rose are both good at it because they draw so much help that swinging the ball usually means one or two passes creates a wide open look.

of course that data is tracked, we just are privy to very little of it. Teams with the top analytics departments have so much more data than what is openly shared.

And NBA.com has lots of interesting passing stats though the UI is pretty awful.

I am looking for your boy BJ to be our dark horse.


Hockey assists (called "secondary AST") are available here. If you look at the other columns, you'll see a lot of interesting info. there too.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1

Yeah, I know you can look them up. But I think it'd be interesting if the NBA made the stat more visible, put it more in the spotlight as they do with other stats.

¿ △ ?
fishmike
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7/14/2016  10:17 AM
yellowboy90 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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7/14/2016  10:21 AM
crzymdups wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

Yeah I think KP will get a lot more easy looks this year. I can really see him scoring 18-20ppg this season. I think his three point shot will be better too as he gets better looks.

This is one thing that the advanced stats do not really show - the ability for Rose to get guys open looks even off one or two passes. I sort of wish the NBA counted or made the hockey assist stat more visible. Melo and Rose are both good at it because they draw so much help that swinging the ball usually means one or two passes creates a wide open look.

of course that data is tracked, we just are privy to very little of it. Teams with the top analytics departments have so much more data than what is openly shared.

And NBA.com has lots of interesting passing stats though the UI is pretty awful.

I am looking for your boy BJ to be our dark horse.


Hockey assists (called "secondary AST") are available here. If you look at the other columns, you'll see a lot of interesting info. there too.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1

Yeah, I know you can look them up. But I think it'd be interesting if the NBA made the stat more visible, put it more in the spotlight as they do with other stats.


Oh my bad. I see what you mean.
knicks1248
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7/14/2016  10:37 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

all good points..Melo has been very good when he has a very good PG on the roster..

ES
Bonn1997
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7/14/2016  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2016  10:40 AM
fishmike wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.


What evidence is there that anyone is cherry picking stats? Yellow, Mreinman, and I look at the same stats for every player.
CrushAlot
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7/14/2016  10:43 AM
BigRedDog wrote:
mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

This. Also didn't the new coach say they needed to get a point guard?

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Melo and Rose

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