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mreinman
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7/26/2016  10:45 AM
holfresh wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:I am fully aware we import more than we export.If you meant to say American consumption drives Global economy then I would actually agree with you. Though the Chinese are doing more than their fair share as well.

Also it seems like ever since 1970s the income gap has widened steadily - it may have had reversal or two during the recessions (Dot com and Housing) but during those times capital gains declines are enormous so a sharp drop off followed by a equally sharp recovery can be expected. Isn't this what they called the divergence? In fact if you want to look for single trigger event, then overturn of Bretton Woods and the onset of the FIRE economy almost coincides with the onset of the great divergence. If you agree capitalism has been in force since the seventies then it has definitely widened the income gap. If you look at other capitalist countries they bear out the same story the income and wealth inequality is palpable and resulted in crises in human terms. The price for capitalism is being paid by the lives of people living and dying in starvation and destitution.


You are right about American consumption drives Global economy..I worded my sentence incorrectly...One of the main reasons for the income gap is the increase of asset prices along with housing values..More wealth were created in the mid 80s to late 80s when good old Ronnie cut taxes and blew out the deficit. The Dow really started to get rolling in the 90s.. I don't have a problem with these things...What I have a problem with are the things that further exacerbates the income gap and further squeezing the little guy...For example, do banks really have to charge 30% interest on a credit card along with the nickle and dime fees at every turn...$3.00 to withdraw money from another branch. Mobile phone service with phantom fees which ATT had to pay a massive fine...Auto renewal of Norton antivirus protection cost people 10s of millions..It's stuff like that....We are forced to bundle TV package... You mean Apple cant pay it's workers at least $25/30 per hour while hoarding 233 billion with no clue what to do with it...It's the pile on charges that can make a difference in consumer spending. The starvation and destitution argument I don't get.

More CC regulation would be good but the CC companies need to also make up for all the defaults and debt forgiveness / modifications. Also, if you use your ATM card and a transaction causes your account to go into a negative state, instead of charging you $40 bucks per occurrence, do you think that it would be more protective and fair business to deny the transaction? Banks overall need much more regulation but at least its much better than it once was.

The other thing that makes no sense is CEO salaries ... in many cases its borderline stealing from the share holders and employees at gun point. You can have a CEO of a middling company that has enough voting seats to command a 60 million dollar annual package while the company does poorly and there is no recourse to remove this CEO. I am not sure if I am for CEO compensation capping but I do believe that it has to be tied directly to performance to warrant it. The number executives that have shady compensation deals is off the charts and its not regulated since nobody has the guts to stand up to this powerful corporate beast.

As far as apple paying higher wages, that's complicated ... if they can offshore for dirt cheap, why should they pay more? Companies will always get away with what they can, that is why they are so profitable.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
AUTOADVERT
meloanyk
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7/26/2016  12:24 PM
mreinman wrote:
holfresh wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:I am fully aware we import more than we export.If you meant to say American consumption drives Global economy then I would actually agree with you. Though the Chinese are doing more than their fair share as well.

Also it seems like ever since 1970s the income gap has widened steadily - it may have had reversal or two during the recessions (Dot com and Housing) but during those times capital gains declines are enormous so a sharp drop off followed by a equally sharp recovery can be expected. Isn't this what they called the divergence? In fact if you want to look for single trigger event, then overturn of Bretton Woods and the onset of the FIRE economy almost coincides with the onset of the great divergence. If you agree capitalism has been in force since the seventies then it has definitely widened the income gap. If you look at other capitalist countries they bear out the same story the income and wealth inequality is palpable and resulted in crises in human terms. The price for capitalism is being paid by the lives of people living and dying in starvation and destitution.


You are right about American consumption drives Global economy..I worded my sentence incorrectly...One of the main reasons for the income gap is the increase of asset prices along with housing values..More wealth were created in the mid 80s to late 80s when good old Ronnie cut taxes and blew out the deficit. The Dow really started to get rolling in the 90s.. I don't have a problem with these things...What I have a problem with are the things that further exacerbates the income gap and further squeezing the little guy...For example, do banks really have to charge 30% interest on a credit card along with the nickle and dime fees at every turn...$3.00 to withdraw money from another branch. Mobile phone service with phantom fees which ATT had to pay a massive fine...Auto renewal of Norton antivirus protection cost people 10s of millions..It's stuff like that....We are forced to bundle TV package... You mean Apple cant pay it's workers at least $25/30 per hour while hoarding 233 billion with no clue what to do with it...It's the pile on charges that can make a difference in consumer spending. The starvation and destitution argument I don't get.

More CC regulation would be good but the CC companies need to also make up for all the defaults and debt forgiveness / modifications. Also, if you use your ATM card and a transaction causes your account to go into a negative state, instead of charging you $40 bucks per occurrence, do you think that it would be more protective and fair business to deny the transaction? Banks overall need much more regulation but at least its much better than it once was.

The other thing that makes no sense is CEO salaries ... in many cases its borderline stealing from the share holders and employees at gun point. You can have a CEO of a middling company that has enough voting seats to command a 60 million dollar annual package while the company does poorly and there is no recourse to remove this CEO. I am not sure if I am for CEO compensation capping but I do believe that it has to be tied directly to performance to warrant it. The number executives that have shady compensation deals is off the charts and its not regulated since nobody has the guts to stand up to this powerful corporate beast.

As far as apple paying higher wages, that's complicated ... if they can offshore for dirt cheap, why should they pay more? Companies will always get away with what they can, that is why they are so profitable.

Kind of ridiculous that Mayer will walk away with over $200 mil over her short unsuccessful stint at Yahoo. Also kind of ridiculous that some some rather average NBA players will be making as much as the CEO of JP Morgan who gets the bulk of his compensation in restricted stock. Point being that I conceptually agree with you on corporate executive compensation limits but it's nearly impossible to slot and establish given variants and comp tied in to performance, while logical has faults since many bottom line results are derived from cost cutting rather than top line growth. On another note not directed at you, I hear this 1% bandied so loosely today without any consideration who is in it and why its share of income has increased resulting in a greater divergence. Wide range of functions and income . Still mainly entrepreneurs, medical professionals, finance, sports and entertainers, law, politicians, supervisors and executives but certain sectors have seen their wealth and their share within that 1% grow exponentially such as technology innovators, top executives ,sports and entertainers, hedge fund operators. When one starts delving closer into the details of the 1% then one can begin to be more specific on where excesses lie than making blanket generalizations because they don't apply to all. Maybe Jordan and others can sign the Giving Pledge

meloshouldgo
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7/26/2016  3:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/26/2016  3:42 PM
holfresh wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:I am fully aware we import more than we export.If you meant to say American consumption drives Global economy then I would actually agree with you. Though the Chinese are doing more than their fair share as well.

Also it seems like ever since 1970s the income gap has widened steadily - it may have had reversal or two during the recessions (Dot com and Housing) but during those times capital gains declines are enormous so a sharp drop off followed by a equally sharp recovery can be expected. Isn't this what they called the divergence? In fact if you want to look for single trigger event, then overturn of Bretton Woods and the onset of the FIRE economy almost coincides with the onset of the great divergence. If you agree capitalism has been in force since the seventies then it has definitely widened the income gap. If you look at other capitalist countries they bear out the same story the income and wealth inequality is palpable and resulted in crises in human terms. The price for capitalism is being paid by the lives of people living and dying in starvation and destitution.


You are right about American consumption drives Global economy..I worded my sentence incorrectly...One of the main reasons for the income gap is the increase of asset prices along with housing values..More wealth were created in the mid 80s to late 80s when good old Ronnie cut taxes and blew out the deficit. The Dow really started to get rolling in the 90s.. I don't have a problem with these things...What I have a problem with are the things that further exacerbates the income gap and further squeezing the little guy...For example, do banks really have to charge 30% interest on a credit card along with the nickle and dime fees at every turn...$3.00 to withdraw money from another branch. Mobile phone service with phantom fees which ATT had to pay a massive fine...Auto renewal of Norton antivirus protection cost people 10s of millions..It's stuff like that....We are forced to bundle TV package... You mean Apple cant pay it's workers at least $25/30 per hour while hoarding 233 billion with no clue what to do with it...It's the pile on charges that can make a difference in consumer spending. The starvation and destitution argument I don't get.

Just so we are talking about the same thing. Inflated asset prices especially in housing will directly lead to wealth gap increase. The impact on income gap is more indirect. Since the seventies most of the wealth created is through leverage and asset price manipulation and not through the normal production based economy. This in turn made all types of regular jobs less valuable and drove down real wages for 85% of the workforce, resulting in the income gap. Also availability of cheap labor from outside countries feed into this.

The starvation and destitution comment was about really poor people in capitalist countries outside the US, example India and Bangladesh.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
newyorknewyork
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7/26/2016  5:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/26/2016  5:50 PM
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12256510/republican-party-trump-avik-roy

A Republican intellectual explains why the Republican Party is going to die
Updated by Zack Beauchamp on July 25, 2016, 8:50 a.m. ET @zackbeauchamp zack@vox.com

CLEVELAND — Avik Roy is a Republican’s Republican. A health care wonk and editor at Forbes, he has worked for three Republican presidential hopefuls — Mitt Romney, Rick Perry, and Marco Rubio. Much of his adult life has been dedicated to advancing the Republican Party and conservative ideals.

But when I caught up with Roy at a bar just outside the Republican convention, he said something I’ve never heard from an establishment conservative before: The Grand Old Party is going to die.

“I don’t think the Republican Party and the conservative movement are capable of reforming themselves in an incremental and gradual way,” he said. “There’s going to be a disruption.”

Roy isn’t happy about this: He believes it means the Democrats will dominate national American politics for some time. But he also believes the Republican Party has lost its right to govern, because it is driven by white nationalism rather than a true commitment to equality for all Americans.

“Until the conservative movement can stand up and live by that principle, it will not have the moral authority to lead the country,” he told me.

This is a standard assessment among liberals, but it is frankly shocking to hear from a prominent conservative thinker. Our conversation had the air of a confessional: of Roy admitting that he and his intellectual comrades had gone wrong, had failed, had sinned.

His history of conservatism was a Greek tragedy. It begins with a fatal error in 1964, survived on the willful self-delusion of people like Roy himself, and ended with Donald Trump.

“I think the conservative movement is fundamentally broken,” Roy tells me. “Trump is not a random act. This election is not a random act.”

The conservative movement’s founding error: Barry Goldwater

The conservative movement has something of a founding myth — Roy calls it an “origin story.”

In 1955, William F. Buckley created the intellectual architecture of modern conservatism by founding National Review, focusing on a free market, social conservatism, and a muscular foreign policy. Buckley’s ideals found purchase in the Republican Party in 1964, with the nomination of Barry Goldwater. While Goldwater lost the 1964 general election, his ideas eventually won out in the GOP, culminating in the Reagan Revolution of 1980.

Normally, Goldwater’s defeat is spun as a story of triumph: how the conservative movement eventually righted the ship of an unprincipled GOP. But according to Roy, it’s the first act of a tragedy.

“Goldwater’s nomination in 1964 was a historical disaster for the conservative movement,” Roy tells me, “because for the ensuing decades, it identified Democrats as the party of civil rights and Republicans as the party opposed to civil rights.”

“THE GRAVITATIONAL CENTER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS WHITE NATIONALISM”
Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He himself was not especially racist — he believed it was wrong, on free market grounds, for the federal government to force private businesses to desegregate. But this “principled” stance identified the GOP with the pro-segregation camp in everyone’s eyes, while the Democrats under Lyndon Johnson became the champions of anti-racism.

This had a double effect, Roy says. First, it forced black voters out of the GOP. Second, it invited in white racists who had previously been Democrats. Even though many Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act in Congress, the post-Goldwater party became the party of aggrieved whites.

“The fact is, today, the Republican coalition has inherited the people who opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 — the Southern Democrats who are now Republicans,” Roy says. “Conservatives and Republicans have not come to terms with that problem.”

Conservative intellectuals were blind to the truth about the GOP — hence Trump

The available evidence compiled by historians and political scientists suggests that 1964 really was a pivotal political moment, in exactly the way Roy describes.

Yet Republican intellectuals have long denied this, fabricating a revisionist history in which Republicans were and always have been the party of civil rights. In 2012, National Review ran a lengthy cover story arguing that the standard history recounted by Roy was “popular but indefensible.”

This revisionism, according to Roy, points to a much bigger conservative delusion: They cannot admit that their party’s voters are motivated far more by white identity politics than by conservative ideals.

“Conservative intellectuals, and conservative politicians, have been in kind of a bubble,” Roy says. “We’ve had this view that the voters were with us on conservatism — philosophical, economic conservatism. In reality, the gravitational center of the Republican Party is white nationalism.”

Conservative intellectuals, for the most part, are horrified by racism. When they talk about believing in individual rights and equality, they really mean it. Because the Republican Party is the vehicle through which their ideas can be implemented, they need to believe that the party isn’t racist.

So they deny the party’s racist history, that its post-1964 success was a direct result of attracting whites disillusioned by the Democrats’ embrace of civil rights. And they deny that to this day, Republican voters are driven more by white resentment than by a principled commitment to the free market and individual liberty.

“It’s the power of wishful thinking. None of us want to accept that opposition to civil rights is the legacy that we’ve inherited,” Roy says.

He expands on this idea: “It’s a common observation on the left, but it’s an observation that a lot of us on the right genuinely believed wasn’t true — which is that conservatism has become, and has been for some time, much more about white identity politics than it has been about conservative political philosophy. I think today, even now, a lot of conservatives have not come to terms with that problem.”

This, Roy believes, is where the conservative intellectual class went astray. By refusing to admit the truth about their own party, they were powerless to stop the forces that led to Donald Trump’s rise. They told themselves, over and over again, that Goldwater’s victory was a triumph.

But in reality, it created the conditions under which Trump could thrive. Trump’s politics of aggrieved white nationalism — labeling black people criminals, Latinos rapists, and Muslims terrorists — succeeded because the party’s voting base was made up of the people who once opposed civil rights.

“[Trump] tapped into something that was latent in the Republican Party and conservative movement — but a lot of people in the conservative movement didn’t notice,” Roy concludes, glumly.

For conservatism to live, the conservative movement has to die

A sign with one of the RNC’s most popular slogans.
Over beers, I ask Roy how he feels about all of this personally. His answer is very sad.

“When Marco [Rubio] lost, I went through the five stages of grief. It was tough. I had to spend some time thinking about what to do for the next several years of my life,” he says.

“I left a comforting and rewarding career as a biotech investor to do this kind of work. I did it because I felt it was important, and I care about the country. Maybe it’s cheesy to say that, but I really sincerely do,” he continues. “So then, okay, what do I do? Do I do the same things I’ve been doing for the last four years? To me, just to do that to collect a paycheck didn’t make a lot of sense.”

This soul-searching led Roy to an uncomfortable conclusion: The Republican Party, and the conservative movement that propped it up, is doomed.

Both are too wedded to the politics of white nationalism to change how they act, but that just isn’t a winning formula in a nation that’s increasingly black and brown. Either the Republican Party will eat itself or a new party will rise and overtake its voting share.

“Either the disruption will come from the Republican Party representing cranky old white people and a new right-of-center party emerging in its place, or a third party will emerge, à la the Republicans emerging from the Whigs in the [1850s],” Roy says.

The work of conservative intellectuals today, he argues, is to devise a new conservatism — a political vision that adheres to limited government principles but genuinely appeals to a more diverse America.

“I think it’s incredibly important to take stock,” he says, “and build a new conservative movement that is genuinely about individual liberty.”

I don’t know how this would work. I don’t think Roy knows either.

For the entire history of modern conservatism, its ideals have been wedded to and marred by white supremacism. That’s Roy’s own diagnosis, and I think it’s correct. As a result, we have literally no experience in America of a politically viable conservative movement unmoored from white supremacy.

I’ve read dozens of conservative intellectuals writing compellingly about non-racist conservative ideals. Writers like Andrew Sullivan, Ross Douthat, Reihan Salam, Michael Brendan Dougherty, and too many others to count have put forward visions of a conservative party quite different from the one we have.

But not one of these writers, smart as they are, has been able to explain what actual political constituency could bring about this pure conservatism in practice. The fact is that limited government conservatism is not especially appealing to nonwhite Americans, whereas liberalism and social democracy are. The only ones for whom conservatism is a natural fit are Roy’s “cranky old white people” — and they’re dying off.

Maybe Roy and company will be able to solve this problem. I hope they do. America needs a viable, intellectually serious right-of-center party.

Because we now know what the alternative looks like. It’s Donald Trump.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
meloshouldgo
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7/26/2016  6:20 PM
Good article, pretty much validates everything I think is true about the GOP. I don't agree with conservatism but I don't think of them as indecent people. But large chunks of the party are basically white supremacists and their sympathizers. This second group is bereft of any intellectual capital and they are the dominant section of the party. They have done enormous damage to the country and continue to do so under the pretext of conservatism.
Donald Trump is merely the culmination of everything these people wanted being vocally legitimized at the top of the ticket.
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
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7/26/2016  10:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/26/2016  10:25 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:The poverty levels are extreme in those countries, that is fair to state. India being the worse.

It is only recent that these countries are trying to turn to more markets economies after years of state controlled economies. Bangladesh is as corrupt as countries come.
A turn to capitalism has helped undermine the Caste system in India. Those who were once the lowest have not risen socially as well as economically BUT there is still far to go.

I do not think it is fair to say they have been capitalist countries and the poverty was entrenched well before they have attempted to turn their policies around.

1991 is the year India enacted economic reform - including massive deregulation, adoption of free markets etc. This chart shows you what happened to corporate profits and inflation adjusted real wages of industrial workers from 1983 onwards.

In 2014, 58% of population of India made less than $3.50 a day

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
misterearl
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7/27/2016  5:46 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/27/2016  5:53 AM
American Education

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/26/12292322/bill-oreilly-michelle-obama-slaves-white-house

On Fox News, a trusted source for millions of viewers, Bill O'Reilly said the slaves thet built The White House were well fed.

Ignorance, racism and privilege are a dangerous blend. Fox News keeps banging the drum for all three. Bill O'Reilly should be forced to watch "12 Years A Slave."

Better still, he should be put in chains and shipped to another country.

once a knick always a knick
GoNyGoNyGo
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7/27/2016  10:13 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:The poverty levels are extreme in those countries, that is fair to state. India being the worse.

It is only recent that these countries are trying to turn to more markets economies after years of state controlled economies. Bangladesh is as corrupt as countries come.
A turn to capitalism has helped undermine the Caste system in India. Those who were once the lowest have not risen socially as well as economically BUT there is still far to go.

I do not think it is fair to say they have been capitalist countries and the poverty was entrenched well before they have attempted to turn their policies around.

1991 is the year India enacted economic reform - including massive deregulation, adoption of free markets etc. This chart shows you what happened to corporate profits and inflation adjusted real wages of industrial workers from 1983 onwards.

In 2014, 58% of population of India made less than $3.50 a day


Good chart, It illustrates a point that you were making. I think adding in that CEO's, in India are making thousands a day, would hammer it home more.

You would agree that 1970's India was socialist with Poverty at almost 70%. In 2010 the poverty rate is now much less (20% or less depending on source). In 2012 the line was considered $1.25 per day. So while $3.50/day, is horrific for an American standard, it is not as bad when you look at it relative to what the daily living expenses are in India.

The quality of life has improved for most since the reforms.
There is no arguing that GDP for the country has been exponential since the reforms.

What is more true now is that with the reforms, almost all have a chance to make more than before whereas before you had to be of a higher caste to even have a chance. For example, the middle class has grown in India.

The bottom line is there is improvement but old philosophies and mind sets are still at work. There is a difference in their rural vs urban economies which is a factor in the gap. Overall the top 1% in INdia have half the wealth.

World wide, the top 1% saw a decrease from 2000 to 2009 (48.7 to 44%) and this has increased back to 48.2% since 2009 to now.

Knickoftime
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7/27/2016  1:05 PM
Can a Trump supporter please attempt to justify encouraging Russia to perform espionage on his political opponent, and accusing Putin of calling Obama the 'n'-word please?

Bonus points if you can do it without comparing them to some other thing you think Clinton did that was worse (which I don't expect to have to pay out).

arkrud
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7/27/2016  3:10 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:The poverty levels are extreme in those countries, that is fair to state. India being the worse.

It is only recent that these countries are trying to turn to more markets economies after years of state controlled economies. Bangladesh is as corrupt as countries come.
A turn to capitalism has helped undermine the Caste system in India. Those who were once the lowest have not risen socially as well as economically BUT there is still far to go.

I do not think it is fair to say they have been capitalist countries and the poverty was entrenched well before they have attempted to turn their policies around.

1991 is the year India enacted economic reform - including massive deregulation, adoption of free markets etc. This chart shows you what happened to corporate profits and inflation adjusted real wages of industrial workers from 1983 onwards.

In 2014, 58% of population of India made less than $3.50 a day


Good chart, It illustrates a point that you were making. I think adding in that CEO's, in India are making thousands a day, would hammer it home more.

You would agree that 1970's India was socialist with Poverty at almost 70%. In 2010 the poverty rate is now much less (20% or less depending on source). In 2012 the line was considered $1.25 per day. So while $3.50/day, is horrific for an American standard, it is not as bad when you look at it relative to what the daily living expenses are in India.

The quality of life has improved for most since the reforms.
There is no arguing that GDP for the country has been exponential since the reforms.

What is more true now is that with the reforms, almost all have a chance to make more than before whereas before you had to be of a higher caste to even have a chance. For example, the middle class has grown in India.

The bottom line is there is improvement but old philosophies and mind sets are still at work. There is a difference in their rural vs urban economies which is a factor in the gap. Overall the top 1% in INdia have half the wealth.

World wide, the top 1% saw a decrease from 2000 to 2009 (48.7 to 44%) and this has increased back to 48.2% since 2009 to now.

The wealth gap concept is fascinating but pointless.
Wealth only can grow if it is concentrated.
Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.
Human race come up so far only with 2 types of wealth concentration - private (capitalism) and public (socialism).
Both can work if actual actors in the society will have motivation to farther concentrate and grow the wealth.
Capitalism is using natural human tendencies so the process of increasing wealth of the nations works.
Socialism is trying to use some kind of imaginal "new human being" who will participate in increasing wealth because he is "good", educated, and generous by nature. So far this was proven to be a fiction and all attempts to collect wealth this way failed.
Contrary wealth was destroyed and societies set back for decades and centuries, and were even totally destroyed.
In US minimum accommodation provided to people who cannot or unwilling to contribute to wealth creation (Supplemental Social Security assistance, Welfare, food-stamps, housing support, kids support, etc.) is much bigger that what average worker in India gets in absolute and even relative terms.
It is not about fairness but about the natural social behaviors.
You break it and the ecosystem of the society get broken and all members are suffering with pure suffering much more that wealthy.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knickoftime
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7/27/2016  3:40 PM
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

fishmike
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7/27/2016  4:27 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
meloshouldgo
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7/27/2016  7:13 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:The poverty levels are extreme in those countries, that is fair to state. India being the worse.

It is only recent that these countries are trying to turn to more markets economies after years of state controlled economies. Bangladesh is as corrupt as countries come.
A turn to capitalism has helped undermine the Caste system in India. Those who were once the lowest have not risen socially as well as economically BUT there is still far to go.

I do not think it is fair to say they have been capitalist countries and the poverty was entrenched well before they have attempted to turn their policies around.

1991 is the year India enacted economic reform - including massive deregulation, adoption of free markets etc. This chart shows you what happened to corporate profits and inflation adjusted real wages of industrial workers from 1983 onwards.

In 2014, 58% of population of India made less than $3.50 a day


Good chart, It illustrates a point that you were making. I think adding in that CEO's, in India are making thousands a day, would hammer it home more.

You would agree that 1970's India was socialist with Poverty at almost 70%. In 2010 the poverty rate is now much less (20% or less depending on source). In 2012 the line was considered $1.25 per day. So while $3.50/day, is horrific for an American standard, it is not as bad when you look at it relative to what the daily living expenses are in India.

Sorry, but I would agree to nothing such. There is no credible source of data on poverty in India prior to the 90s. Throwing out 70% isn't gonna make it stick. The Indian government has been extremely corrupt and their standards of computing poverty in the earlier years has been questioned by all manner of people and organizations.

$3.50 is not the poverty line for 2015, that's still at the $1.25 level, I provided the $3.50 to show what it means to be "above the poverty line" in India (that accounts for about 37% of the population over and above the 21% below the actual poverty line). And those numbers are Purchasing Power Parity adjusted so it already accounts for conditions relative to India. PPP adjusted $3.50 is the equivalent of a person making $3.50 in the local economy here in 2011. I probably should have explained that better.

The quality of life has improved for most since the reforms.
There is no arguing that GDP for the country has been exponential since the reforms.

There is zero evidence that the quality of life has improved for anyone but the top 10th percentile
No one is arguing about GDP growth the argument is about what that growth does for the people of the country

What is more true now is that with the reforms, almost all have a chance to make more than before whereas before you had to be of a higher caste to even have a chance. For example, the middle class has grown in India.

You clearly don't understand how the caste system has played out in India - the many injustices are heavily weighed on the social scale not the economical. Protection for lower castes in education and job market has been in the books for over 35 years now.

The bottom line is there is improvement but old philosophies and mind sets are still at work. There is a difference in their rural vs urban economies which is a factor in the gap. Overall the top 1% in INdia have half the wealth.

World wide, the top 1% saw a decrease from 2000 to 2009 (48.7 to 44%) and this has increased back to 48.2% since 2009 to now.

This last part I agree with, but not necessarily about the mindsets. The business sector completely embraced full bore capitalism, they are the ones making economic decisions at the micro level.

Right now 80 of the World's richest people have more wealth than 3.5 Billion of the world's poorest people. Capitalism will continue to make that gap more and more stark. By 2020, 95% of the world's population will have 5% of the wealth and the means to support their lives.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
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7/27/2016  7:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/27/2016  8:12 PM
Since I got partially sidetracked from the main discussion - do not judge India's poor by the poverty line. That refers to people who are actually working. There are millions who don't have any earnings are not on social welfare and sleep on the streets. They survive by begging, random charitable acts by strangers (mostly not organized), stealing and or eating garbage. Those are the destitute people I referred to earlier. The few social welfare programs that were there have been under attack from the capitalist wing.

This shows extreme poverty - guess which country has he biggest square? You keep bringing up socialism, China has a square about half the size of India and their economic reforms started much later and they have never completely adopted capitalism. Having said that I have no intention of discussing socialism just providing you with some data.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
arkrud
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7/27/2016  9:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/27/2016  9:13 PM
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers

You know food, drinks, yep strippers, just fooling around in the office, whatever you like.
You get free lunch so you eat it.
I saw the wealth produced by hard labor of Gulag slaves, taken from defeated Germans. and collected from $100+ oil disappeared in front of my eyes in one generation.
You don't wont to be there... so forget this socialism crap.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knickoftime
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7/27/2016  9:19 PM
arkrud wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers

You know food, drinks, yep strippers, just fooling around in the office, whatever you like.
You get free lunch so you eat it.
I saw the wealth produced by hard labor of Gulag slaves, taken from defeated Germans. and collected from $100+ oil disappeared in front of my eyes in one generation.
You don't wont to be there... so forget this socialism crap.

Not talking socialism.

I'm talking basic economic principles that informs economic/social system.

Wealth doesn't disappear.

If one doesn't understand that, one doesn't possess the tools to critique systems.

meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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7/27/2016  9:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/27/2016  10:01 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers

You know food, drinks, yep strippers, just fooling around in the office, whatever you like.
You get free lunch so you eat it.
I saw the wealth produced by hard labor of Gulag slaves, taken from defeated Germans. and collected from $100+ oil disappeared in front of my eyes in one generation.
You don't wont to be there... so forget this socialism crap.

Not talking socialism.

I'm talking basic economic principles that informs economic/social system.

Wealth doesn't disappear.

If one doesn't understand that, one doesn't possess the tools to critique systems.

Ditto

EDIT: Technically you could say paper wealth has been shown to disappear, the great recession is a very good example. Wealth does disappear when inflated bubble economies are forced to self correct. What strippers and Gulag slaves have to do with bubble economies, that's anybody's guess.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
GoNyGoNyGo
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7/28/2016  11:31 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:The poverty levels are extreme in those countries, that is fair to state. India being the worse.

It is only recent that these countries are trying to turn to more markets economies after years of state controlled economies. Bangladesh is as corrupt as countries come.
A turn to capitalism has helped undermine the Caste system in India. Those who were once the lowest have not risen socially as well as economically BUT there is still far to go.

I do not think it is fair to say they have been capitalist countries and the poverty was entrenched well before they have attempted to turn their policies around.

1991 is the year India enacted economic reform - including massive deregulation, adoption of free markets etc. This chart shows you what happened to corporate profits and inflation adjusted real wages of industrial workers from 1983 onwards.

In 2014, 58% of population of India made less than $3.50 a day


Good chart, It illustrates a point that you were making. I think adding in that CEO's, in India are making thousands a day, would hammer it home more.

You would agree that 1970's India was socialist with Poverty at almost 70%. In 2010 the poverty rate is now much less (20% or less depending on source). In 2012 the line was considered $1.25 per day. So while $3.50/day, is horrific for an American standard, it is not as bad when you look at it relative to what the daily living expenses are in India.

Sorry, but I would agree to nothing such. There is no credible source of data on poverty in India prior to the 90s. Throwing out 70% isn't gonna make it stick. The Indian government has been extremely corrupt and their standards of computing poverty in the earlier years has been questioned by all manner of people and organizations.

$3.50 is not the poverty line for 2015, that's still at the $1.25 level, I provided the $3.50 to show what it means to be "above the poverty line" in India (that accounts for about 37% of the population over and above the 21% below the actual poverty line). And those numbers are Purchasing Power Parity adjusted so it already accounts for conditions relative to India. PPP adjusted $3.50 is the equivalent of a person making $3.50 in the local economy here in 2011. I probably should have explained that better.

I have seen the 21% number in the same charts as the nearly 70% number.


The quality of life has improved for most since the reforms.
There is no arguing that GDP for the country has been exponential since the reforms.

There is zero evidence that the quality of life has improved for anyone but the top 10th percentile
No one is arguing about GDP growth the argument is about what that growth does for the people of the country


What is more true now is that with the reforms, almost all have a chance to make more than before whereas before you had to be of a higher caste to even have a chance. For example, the middle class has grown in India.

You clearly don't understand how the caste system has played out in India - the many injustices are heavily weighed on the social scale not the economical. Protection for lower castes in education and job market has been in the books for over 35 years now.

I thought we were talking economics and the poor. I was not discussing the caste system other than saying it is being undermined by the rise of economic opportunity of the lower castes. Undermined in that with greater economic and political equality more attention is being given to the lack of social equality. Which is a good thing. The Caste system is a far greater issue in India that is embedded in religion and culture.

The bottom line is there is improvement but old philosophies and mind sets are still at work. There is a difference in their rural vs urban economies which is a factor in the gap. Overall the top 1% in INdia have half the wealth.

World wide, the top 1% saw a decrease from 2000 to 2009 (48.7 to 44%) and this has increased back to 48.2% since 2009 to now.

This last part I agree with, but not necessarily about the mindsets. The business sector completely embraced full bore capitalism, they are the ones making economic decisions at the micro level.

Right now 80 of the World's richest people have more wealth than 3.5 Billion of the world's poorest people. Capitalism will continue to make that gap more and more stark. By 2020, 95% of the world's population will have 5% of the wealth and the means to support their lives.

As I understand you (see last bolded part), you believe that Capitalism is the reason for the wealth gap here, in India and worldwide. What economic system will reverse the trend? Assuming that is what you are advocating.

Knickoftime
Posts: 24159
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7/28/2016  11:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2016  11:38 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers

You know food, drinks, yep strippers, just fooling around in the office, whatever you like.
You get free lunch so you eat it.
I saw the wealth produced by hard labor of Gulag slaves, taken from defeated Germans. and collected from $100+ oil disappeared in front of my eyes in one generation.
You don't wont to be there... so forget this socialism crap.

Not talking socialism.

I'm talking basic economic principles that informs economic/social system.

Wealth doesn't disappear.

If one doesn't understand that, one doesn't possess the tools to critique systems.

Ditto

EDIT: Technically you could say paper wealth has been shown to disappear, the great recession is a very good example. Wealth does disappear when inflated bubble economies are forced to self correct. What strippers and Gulag slaves have to do with bubble economies, that's anybody's guess.

Wealth the reaches the middle to lower classes is almost certainly converted to consumer spending in some form or another.

arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
7/28/2016  12:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2016  12:35 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
arkrud wrote:Dispersed wealth is consumed and disappearing quickly.

Where does it disappear to?

strippers

You know food, drinks, yep strippers, just fooling around in the office, whatever you like.
You get free lunch so you eat it.
I saw the wealth produced by hard labor of Gulag slaves, taken from defeated Germans. and collected from $100+ oil disappeared in front of my eyes in one generation.
You don't wont to be there... so forget this socialism crap.

Not talking socialism.

I'm talking basic economic principles that informs economic/social system.

Wealth doesn't disappear.

If one doesn't understand that, one doesn't possess the tools to critique systems.

Ditto

EDIT: Technically you could say paper wealth has been shown to disappear, the great recession is a very good example. Wealth does disappear when inflated bubble economies are forced to self correct. What strippers and Gulag slaves have to do with bubble economies, that's anybody's guess.

Wealth the reaches the middle to lower classes is almost certainly converted to consumer spending in some form or another.

Wealth obviously can flow from one country to another or inside the society and it does.
But if the society is not provided means for wealth accumulation and inheritance it does disappear.
Simply say if you take 1 million dollars and give it to million people.
Then they all go to the store and by pack of cigarettes made on government factory which is subsidized itself.
Then wealth worth 1 million is reduces to nothing.
Contrary is you invest this million into profitable business wealth will we sustained or even increased.
Obviously in reality wealth diminishing take a lot of steps as some of it is preserved and reused in every transaction.
US leaves in the world of expanding wealth forever so people cannot imagine that a lot of countries in the world have it collapsing.
Obviously this counties slowly descent in more primitive state and eventually are depopulated and case to exist.
Most of this countries get into this state by attempting to make socialist economy work.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." – Arthur Schopenhauer
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
OT: Melo Steps Forward

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