Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:All I'm saying is if Phil locks us into 4 years of Noah and 4 years of "insert mediocre shooting guard", it's just a plain bad franchise move. PERIOD. All this guarantees is the playoff berth if everyone's reasonably healthy. Not any closer to a ring, really, and it'll tie up money better spent elsewhere.

Hoping once everything's official, we'll see only 1 or 2 year team option type deals. If it's longer, then it's a PHUCK JOB.

Your logic is flawed, by virtue of making the playoffs your odds of winning a Title are in fact increased. On the contract issue we have to wait and see what the Noah contract actually ends up being.

I actually think this team makes sense if we hope to take any advantage of having Melo for the next 3 years. This is what you should do and after that contract ends you have KP just going into his prime years.

Your odds of actually eventually winning a title might be better with a lottery pick than the 8th seed in the playoffs.

The empirical reality of that equation is in each of those scenarios your odds are very long and you'd be comparing the relative difference between very long odds.

Teams that have GREAT players win championships. We can of course point to the vast majority of lottery picks that never sniff a championship. And you can point to teams that have been in the lottery for most of the last decade (or more) that aren't in danger of getting out of it.

The James, Currys, Duncans of the world are very, very special.

Currently, Spurs two best players at the moment are a free agent signing and a non-lottery draft pick they gave up a good player to get. And of course, the Spurs move valuable player is probably their coach.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I think that although Nix is right that by making the playoffs, your theoretical possibility of winning a championship (that one year at least) are increased, the actual odds are probably negligible if you're an 8th seed.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:All I'm saying is if Phil locks us into 4 years of Noah and 4 years of "insert mediocre shooting guard", it's just a plain bad franchise move. PERIOD. All this guarantees is the playoff berth if everyone's reasonably healthy. Not any closer to a ring, really, and it'll tie up money better spent elsewhere.

Hoping once everything's official, we'll see only 1 or 2 year team option type deals. If it's longer, then it's a PHUCK JOB.

Your logic is flawed, by virtue of making the playoffs your odds of winning a Title are in fact increased. On the contract issue we have to wait and see what the Noah contract actually ends up being.

I actually think this team makes sense if we hope to take any advantage of having Melo for the next 3 years. This is what you should do and after that contract ends you have KP just going into his prime years.

Your odds of actually eventually winning a title might be better with a lottery pick than the 8th seed in the playoffs.

What the Hell makes you think the Knicks will be an 8th seed? It's quite possible that they will be much higher than that. We have to see what the final roster will be but IMO a combination of Hornacek, Rose, Melo, Noah, KP and either Lee or Gordon is going to make for a VERY good NBA team. I'm not sure that some have really let that gel in their minds yet. The Knicks will be able to bring back some of their bench from last year as well.

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:All I'm saying is if Phil locks us into 4 years of Noah and 4 years of "insert mediocre shooting guard", it's just a plain bad franchise move. PERIOD. All this guarantees is the playoff berth if everyone's reasonably healthy. Not any closer to a ring, really, and it'll tie up money better spent elsewhere.

Hoping once everything's official, we'll see only 1 or 2 year team option type deals. If it's longer, then it's a PHUCK JOB.

Your logic is flawed, by virtue of making the playoffs your odds of winning a Title are in fact increased. On the contract issue we have to wait and see what the Noah contract actually ends up being.

I actually think this team makes sense if we hope to take any advantage of having Melo for the next 3 years. This is what you should do and after that contract ends you have KP just going into his prime years.

Your odds of actually eventually winning a title might be better with a lottery pick than the 8th seed in the playoffs.

The empirical reality of that equation is in each of those scenarios your odds are very long and you'd be comparing the relative difference between very long odds.

Teams that have GREAT players win championships. We can of course point to the vast majority of lottery picks that never sniff a championship. And you can point to teams that have been in the lottery for most of the last decade (or more) that aren't in danger of getting out of it.

The James, Currys, Duncans of the world are very, very special.

Currently, Spurs two best players at the moment are a free agent signing and a non-lottery draft pick they gave up a good player to get. And of course, the Spurs move valuable player is probably their coach.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I think that although Nix is right that by making the playoffs, your theoretical possibility of winning a championship (that one year at least) are increased, the actual odds are probably negligible if you're an 8th seed.

Once again, no one knows if the Knicks will be an 8th seed of MUCH better than that. Phil isn't building this team to be an 8th seed and I highly doubt they will be that bad. With this group no one has to go crazy in order for this team to be successful. They all will help to carry the load and thus spread out the pressure. This isn't a situation where the Knicks are putting tons of pressure on Amare or Melo with no help as in the past. We're talking about Rose, Melo, Noah, KP and either Lee or Gordon being able to play off of each other. That's a lot of ball and player movement and scoring ability. Teams will not be able to focus on any one of our top players and our role players will benefit from that. People need to open their eyes on this.

There's an attitude around here that if a playoff team isn't built with our own players, it's not a real playoff team. No one likes the idea of taking chances on players who are injured and in the 2nd half of their careers. The irony is that tanking is taking the greatest chance of all. But if we build a playoff team with Noah, Melo, and Rose to surround KP instead of 3 random rookie prospects, it doesn't hold the same value. Such is life.

fitzfarm wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Noah's contract better be 2-3 years tops, anything longer than that, and Phil officially took too much acid.

I'm "okay" with Rose/Noah moves, as long as we'll have enough to max someone out next year.

Only negative with these moves (besides the obvious health question marks) is it'll jeopardize our draft position in the best draft in years. With these moves we'll be around a .500 team, we'll be picking around 15 instead of 5, and not have that quality stud of a player that can play with KP for a decade.

Of course this the Knicks way....mortgage the future for the mediocre now.

Its a deep draft said to be 1-15 full with great potential guys. We can compete as hard as we want and still come up with a solid player for KP to build a duo.

And, come on, the same "Knicks mortgaging the future" has gotten old, especially when this new management hasn't done so. Not only do we still have KP, but we have been active trying to get young players even without the draft picks that were traded before this regime. I do believe the Knicks are trying to win now, but are also trying to be flexible with their future and do have in mind that the future is KP.

I think the Knicks have set themselves nicely for a "low risk / high reward season." If everything goes wrong with Rose, Melo and the rest of the team, a high pick will take us back up. If everything goes right, we may find out the meaning of the "something special is about to happen" premonition Rose gave in his introduction.

If the Knicks commit $18m per to Noah, They'll have $10-$12m to commit to a sub par shooting guard they'll overpay. Then there's still the bench where depth will be a major key with injury prone players like Rose, Noah, and Melo. Are they bringing back Lance Thomas? And at what price?

It'll be best case the 54 win season all over again, with the team held together with duct tape and elmer's glue, and a ton of veteran minimum contracts. And the eventual bust out in the 1st or 2nd round.

The real best case scenario is the Knicks sign Noah for only a 1 or 2 year rental, fill out SG and the bench with only 1 or 2 yr roster filler, and we go armed to the teeth in 2017 with $60 mill in cap space and a top 5 pick.

Knicks History tells us we'll overpay for Noah with a 4 year deal, and then sign a generic shooting guard to a 4 year $40 mill contract, essentially PHUCKING US UP THE BUTT for the future, draft pick and cap space be damned.

I'll keep my mind open until everything's offical though...

This isn't like the 2012 team. That team was really old. After Shump the youngest player was 27. That team had a 40 yr old, a 39 yr old, two 38 yr olds, and two 35 year olds. Not even close to what the Knicks are doing now. The influx of youth for that year was Cope and he is older than Melo.

Melo is 32 and Noah is 31. Both haven't come close to playing full season in quite a long time. Rose will be turning 28, but he's only played 127 out of a possible 246 regular season games the last 3 years (not even counting the entire 2013 season he missed).

This is exactly the 2012 squad all over again. A win now or forever hold your peace type team. If they don't win anything significant this year, it'll be torn apart and the reset button will be pressed once again.

Do or die team. History repeating itself once again.

That 2012 team never had a player the caliber of porzingod or a healthy Rose for that matter. 2012 didn't have a core of guys in the prime even if it's later in their prime

If healthy Noah Rose addition to our already stars is the best team put together since gosh I would say Ewing days but even he got screwed with just blue collar players most of his career .

This is the best core I think I've ever seen in my knick history dating back to 86

Rose Ny has not had a pg of his talent since Clyde, rose had a great second half and is fully healthy

Noah is a super glue guy warrior VOCAL LEADER we need a guy who holds people accountable and gets under opponents skin. He's fully healthy

We have Porzingod we have never nor has any other team had such a talent as porzingod he's going to go down as one of the greatest.

Melo a scoring machine one of the best in the game

We sure surrounded KP with some great in prime talent to learn and grow .. Again KP is the center piece to this team not melo,Rose,or Noah

It's all about KP and Phil knows it .

Tyson was a much better player in 2012 than KP is today.

Melo was much much better and younger.

Kidd was a player coach on the floor.

Noah and Rose don't help us / make us better if they play like they have played. Will they reverse course? Chances are much higher that they don't than do.

mreinman wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Noah's contract better be 2-3 years tops, anything longer than that, and Phil officially took too much acid.

I'm "okay" with Rose/Noah moves, as long as we'll have enough to max someone out next year.

Only negative with these moves (besides the obvious health question marks) is it'll jeopardize our draft position in the best draft in years. With these moves we'll be around a .500 team, we'll be picking around 15 instead of 5, and not have that quality stud of a player that can play with KP for a decade.

Of course this the Knicks way....mortgage the future for the mediocre now.

Its a deep draft said to be 1-15 full with great potential guys. We can compete as hard as we want and still come up with a solid player for KP to build a duo.

And, come on, the same "Knicks mortgaging the future" has gotten old, especially when this new management hasn't done so. Not only do we still have KP, but we have been active trying to get young players even without the draft picks that were traded before this regime. I do believe the Knicks are trying to win now, but are also trying to be flexible with their future and do have in mind that the future is KP.

I think the Knicks have set themselves nicely for a "low risk / high reward season." If everything goes wrong with Rose, Melo and the rest of the team, a high pick will take us back up. If everything goes right, we may find out the meaning of the "something special is about to happen" premonition Rose gave in his introduction.

If the Knicks commit $18m per to Noah, They'll have $10-$12m to commit to a sub par shooting guard they'll overpay. Then there's still the bench where depth will be a major key with injury prone players like Rose, Noah, and Melo. Are they bringing back Lance Thomas? And at what price?

It'll be best case the 54 win season all over again, with the team held together with duct tape and elmer's glue, and a ton of veteran minimum contracts. And the eventual bust out in the 1st or 2nd round.

The real best case scenario is the Knicks sign Noah for only a 1 or 2 year rental, fill out SG and the bench with only 1 or 2 yr roster filler, and we go armed to the teeth in 2017 with $60 mill in cap space and a top 5 pick.

Knicks History tells us we'll overpay for Noah with a 4 year deal, and then sign a generic shooting guard to a 4 year $40 mill contract, essentially PHUCKING US UP THE BUTT for the future, draft pick and cap space be damned.

I'll keep my mind open until everything's offical though...

This isn't like the 2012 team. That team was really old. After Shump the youngest player was 27. That team had a 40 yr old, a 39 yr old, two 38 yr olds, and two 35 year olds. Not even close to what the Knicks are doing now. The influx of youth for that year was Cope and he is older than Melo.

Melo is 32 and Noah is 31. Both haven't come close to playing full season in quite a long time. Rose will be turning 28, but he's only played 127 out of a possible 246 regular season games the last 3 years (not even counting the entire 2013 season he missed).

This is exactly the 2012 squad all over again. A win now or forever hold your peace type team. If they don't win anything significant this year, it'll be torn apart and the reset button will be pressed once again.

Do or die team. History repeating itself once again.

That 2012 team never had a player the caliber of porzingod or a healthy Rose for that matter. 2012 didn't have a core of guys in the prime even if it's later in their prime

If healthy Noah Rose addition to our already stars is the best team put together since gosh I would say Ewing days but even he got screwed with just blue collar players most of his career .

This is the best core I think I've ever seen in my knick history dating back to 86

Rose Ny has not had a pg of his talent since Clyde, rose had a great second half and is fully healthy

Noah is a super glue guy warrior VOCAL LEADER we need a guy who holds people accountable and gets under opponents skin. He's fully healthy

We have Porzingod we have never nor has any other team had such a talent as porzingod he's going to go down as one of the greatest.

Melo a scoring machine one of the best in the game

We sure surrounded KP with some great in prime talent to learn and grow .. Again KP is the center piece to this team not melo,Rose,or Noah

It's all about KP and Phil knows it .

Tyson was a much better player in 2012 than KP is today.

Melo was much much better and younger.

Kidd was a player coach on the floor.

Noah and Rose don't help us / make us better if they play like they have played. Will they reverse course? Chances are much higher that they don't than do.

TOTALLY DISAGREE! If anything Rose n Noah are primed to have a bounce back season. All the people doubting this are missing the motivation they have to play better. Also having to carry less of a load.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:All I'm saying is if Phil locks us into 4 years of Noah and 4 years of "insert mediocre shooting guard", it's just a plain bad franchise move. PERIOD. All this guarantees is the playoff berth if everyone's reasonably healthy. Not any closer to a ring, really, and it'll tie up money better spent elsewhere.

Hoping once everything's official, we'll see only 1 or 2 year team option type deals. If it's longer, then it's a PHUCK JOB.

Your logic is flawed, by virtue of making the playoffs your odds of winning a Title are in fact increased. On the contract issue we have to wait and see what the Noah contract actually ends up being.

I actually think this team makes sense if we hope to take any advantage of having Melo for the next 3 years. This is what you should do and after that contract ends you have KP just going into his prime years.

Your odds of actually eventually winning a title might be better with a lottery pick than the 8th seed in the playoffs.

The empirical reality of that equation is in each of those scenarios your odds are very long and you'd be comparing the relative difference between very long odds.

Teams that have GREAT players win championships. We can of course point to the vast majority of lottery picks that never sniff a championship. And you can point to teams that have been in the lottery for most of the last decade (or more) that aren't in danger of getting out of it.

The James, Currys, Duncans of the world are very, very special.

Currently, Spurs two best players at the moment are a free agent signing and a non-lottery draft pick they gave up a good player to get. And of course, the Spurs move valuable player is probably their coach.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I think that although Nix is right that by making the playoffs, your theoretical possibility of winning a championship (that one year at least) are increased, the actual odds are probably negligible if you're an 8th seed.

Once again, no one knows if the Knicks will be an 8th seed of MUCH better than that. Phil isn't building this team to be an 8th seed and I highly doubt they will be that bad. With this group no one has to go crazy in order for this team to be successful. They all will help to carry the load and thus spread out the pressure. This isn't a situation where the Knicks are putting tons of pressure on Amare or Melo with no help as in the past. We're talking about Rose, Melo, Noah, KP and either Lee or Gordon being able to play off of each other. That's a lot of ball and player movement and scoring ability. Teams will not be able to focus on any one of our top players and our role players will benefit from that. People need to open their eyes on this.

There's an attitude around here that if a playoff team isn't built with our own players, it's not a real playoff team. No one likes the idea of taking chances on players who are injured and in the 2nd half of their careers. The irony is that tanking is taking the greatest chance of all. But if we build a playoff team with Noah, Melo, and Rose to surround KP instead of 3 random rookie prospects, it doesn't hold the same value. Such is life.

Building a playoff team with Noah, Melo, Rose, and KP isn't a sustainable energy. It's a 1 and done type deal. Then you're forced to retool.

Adding some younger hungry healthy team friendly contracts is much better practice. Win like 25-30 wins and hope to get lucky with a top 5 pick. Reload with Maxing out at least 2 true game changers in 2017 free agency.

Say, we luck out this year and get to 54 wins, a 2nd seed, and lose in the 2nd round. We regress to 42 wins the following season then 35 wins and for what? We're no closer to a championship and we ruined our draft position in a strong draft for nothing. And now instead of 2 Max studs, we can only add 1 max free agent next year, because we wasted it on the remains of Joakim Noah and "Insert Overpaid Mediocre Shooting Guard".

Just keep the major salaries to this year only, and everything is fine and dandy is all.

I don't understand this thought process. KP is 20, Rose 27. Noah 31, and Melo 32. Health permitting, that group could have 4 or 5 years together. PLus, as players continue to age, KP will take on main responsibilities. There is a natural progression there.

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Are you always this pissy?

Not always.

You have absolutely no idea what he will do.

No, you don't.

But you do have history to guide you. Restricted free agents take their first big payday, almost by rule.

Yes, it's theoretically possible KP doesn't cash in, plays for $7.5m for one year rather than sign the $100m plus contract he'll be eligible for (hell, it's not inconceivable he qualifies for the 5th year %30 contract, which would make it a $150m-plus dea]).

It's just nowhere near probable.

Thank you for showing a sense of humor. Neither of us know. 4 years of Dolan, and KP might be running for the exit. A ring(s) might be more important to him. Lets say you're right and he does re-up, we've seen what happens when your star player is surrounded by overpaid, oft-injured, and underproducing players who eat up a big chunk of the cap space. It makes contention all but impossible.

The Knicks need to think about creating the best environment for KP to succeed long term. As a player and as part of a well oiled machine. One starphuck (copyright Nalod) can easily beget other starphucks. We've seen it before many times over the last 10 plus years. I will know things are different when long term deals arent signed for short term gain.

I agree about the environment thing, but I think a solid argument can be made for surrounding him with players that will let him grow into his role rather than making him the alpha dog too soon is a viable strategy.

I don't know what Noah's salary will be or how many years he'll sign for. By rule I don't get angry at speculation.

But what I do know is terms removed, Noah's high-motor, relentless energy, attention to rebounding and more importantly extraordinary post-passing, will benefit KP both as a complimentary frontline player AND as an example ("environment") even if his physical tools aren't at their peak.

Knicks have never had a player like KP, comparisons to previous years are moot.

I can see if not agree with the premise of trying to build around him with all young players.

I just find it hard to imagine some of you others can't see the premise of surrounding him with capable vets for a few years, maybe even log him some play-=off experience early.

There is an argument to be had, for sure. But so often it seems like one side seems totally incapable of grasping the view of the other.