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It's good we are probably getting Crawford, but I am also sad about Frank Williams:
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2004  9:33 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

the NY Times & the RealGM Wiretaps have Frank included in the deal
I probably wouldn't agree to the deal without Frank if I were Paxson

the cap relief is their primary concern
The cap relief is too tiny IMO to give up Jamal without getting at least one respectable young player in return
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TMS
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8/4/2004  9:54 AM
The cap relief is too tiny IMO to give up Jamal without getting at least one respectable young player in return

$18 million dollars is significant cap relief, especially for a team that's not likely to compete for a title in the next 3 years at least...it also allows them to re-sign their top young big man next year ...i'd say the cap space is pretty significant to the Bulls' organization...but i did say i felt you were right in that the Bulls would probably want Frank included in the deal.
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Knicksfan
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8/4/2004  10:16 AM
Posted by TMS:
The cap relief is too tiny IMO to give up Jamal without getting at least one respectable young player in return

$18 million dollars is significant cap relief, especially for a team that's not likely to compete for a title in the next 3 years at least...it also allows them to re-sign their top young big man next year ...i'd say the cap space is pretty significant to the Bulls' organization...but i did say i felt you were right in that the Bulls would probably want Frank included in the deal.

Ok, but at least take Moochie! Im really dissapointed. The only benefit we get from this trade is Craw, and he better play at his best because he will hear it from the Garden if he doesn't. I was really expecting Isiah to give in to something but get another benefit in the trade from Paxon but that's not the case. He just wants this done no matter what happens later, and IMO that's the kind of thinking that has us in this bad cap situation. YEah its different because Craw has big potential, its young and all that. But giving up everything you have in assets and getting a bad contract without dealing one of your own really doesn't helps us. By keeping at least Othella we could give us another shot at a deal, and that's gone in one trade. It really looks like Isiah played the tough before but now is playing the desperate, giving in to everything the Bulls want.
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TMS
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8/4/2004  10:31 AM
if that article from the Wiretap is true, then Isiah is trying to get an extra year in the JC deal, which would get the Knicks much better value for him & make him imminently more tradeable as well if he pans out to be a good player...if he can manage to get JC & his agent to agree to that, i think it's a perfectly acceptable substitution for taking Moochie out of the deal & including Othella instead...all parties would get what they're looking for in that case...the Bulls get their cap relief, the Knicks get their player at a reasonable contract, & JC gets to play where he's wanted to play all along w/his future security intact.
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codeunknown
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8/4/2004  11:11 AM
TMS, I posted this on another thread, but it got lost in the multitude of posts. Feel free to give your opinion.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TMS:


they can buy out Moochie, sure...Isiah had offered them cash to offset his salary next year anyway...it's alot better than to have to find a taker for JYD's contract which extends for another 3 years at double the money, right?



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Actually, Im not that sure that's right. Atleast not in the context of a Curry and Chandler extension. The Bulls have only 23 mil in guaranteed salary next season (aside from Curry and Chandler), which allows them to extend deals starting at 10 mil (essentially max deals) for both Curry and Chandler, and thats if they intend to be that generous, which I doubt. Still, they would be under the projected cap, and thats if there is a luxury tax next season. I think extending Curry or Chandler is irrelevant to the Crawford trade.

Now, in terms of simply saving expenditure, there's definitely a point to your case. They would be saving 13 mil or so over the life of all deals. And, if they buy out Moochie, it gives them room to sign another significant free agent next summer. So, perhaps you're right that there is incentive for this deal as a purely cost-cutting measure after all.

I would have thought that expanding the deal to its maximum would have further benefited the Bulls though. Accumulating expiring deals for moves at the deadline would allow more options in terms of acquiring an impact player. The same net cap space is created just with more pawns involved.
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TMS
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8/4/2004  11:34 AM
they still have to sign other players to fill out the rest of their roster, don't they? they can't just use up all their cap space to sign those 2 guys.

check their salaries for next season:
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm

even if they simply allowed JC to walk via free agency, w/o getting rid of Jerome Williams' contract they would only have about $8 million in extra cap space...not counting the qualifying offer amounts for Curry & Chandler, who you know probably won't be signing for that amount, the cap space would amount to about $20 million with only 7 players signed to contracts...do you think they'll be able to sign both Curry & Chandler to contract extensions & still fill out the rest of their roster w/o going over the cap & having to pay luxury taxes? i don't know about that....getting rid of Jerome Williams is KEY to this Jamal deal imho.
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franco12
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8/4/2004  12:06 PM
the problem I have with Frank Williams being thrown into this deal is he's just that- thrown into the deal for his ending contract and not valued for the talent that he has.

Now- perhaps Isiah has shopped him around and found he has no value to other teams- but, to me, there are teams out there that could use a young pure point guard.

Dallas, NJ & the Lakers are some teams that come to mind that could really use a good back up point guard- yes, Dallas has some young talent there, but for them, Frank would be insurance. And the Nets don't count because unless they could trade Kidd for Frank straight up, their not doing it. And the Fakers have Payton, but did they pass a rule changine allowing wheel chairs to be used, because Payton is only a year older and 5 miles slower next year.
TMS
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8/4/2004  12:31 PM
if the Knicks are in need of a backup PG (since Moochie at backup PG isn't my idea of good insurance), maybe they can sign Bobby Sura for the LLE? i know he's taken flack for trying that fake triple double last year, but he's got good handle, good size at PG & can shoot the ball.
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codeunknown
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8/4/2004  12:55 PM
Posted by TMS:


do you think they'll be able to sign both Curry & Chandler to contract extensions & still fill out the rest of their roster w/o going over the cap & having to pay luxury taxes? i don't know about that....getting rid of Jerome Williams is KEY to this Jamal deal imho.

Im my previous post, I pretty much made that argument for you, that getting rid of Jerome would enable them to sign an extra impact free agent. I don't think we disagree on that.

As a matter of fact, I think we also agree on not giving up all our expiring deals unless they take back one of our bad contracts in return. But, in my opinion, Chicago should have expanded the deal to its maximum. Depending on the source, there are conflicting reports about which players are involved. More ending contracts = more trading option at the deadline. But if its Deke and Norris and cash for Jamal and JunkYard, thats only an extra 3 mil in cap space - but that could end up being significant.
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fahkyu911
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8/4/2004  1:03 PM
the knicks got robbed.
Bonn1997
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8/4/2004  1:08 PM
the bulls got robbed
Allanfan20
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8/4/2004  1:18 PM
Sheesh, they didn't get robbed. I mean, we got ourselves a good deal, but they are looking for expiring contracts and veterans. Plus, Frank Williams is still going to be a very good player. I can see him and Heinrick working great together. I like Frank better than Crawford, I've made that clear, but this is a case where both teams have to make the deal. Crawford was a shooting guard to them, and that's what they have Ben Gordon for, and he is waaaay more talented than Crawford, IMO. Different mindset, but much more talented.

I think Frank would fit well under their sysetem, with the type of game he plays. He makes his teammates look good with his penetrate and dish game, and he takes it to the rack, strong. Plus, the Bulls get the expiring contracts that they need.

And as much as I love Frank, he needs minutes at the PG position, and we wasn't always going to get those, behind Marbury and Houston at the SG. And he certainly is no 2, but Crawford is, at times. We need our 2 of the future, so we need to gamble on Crawford, and if he turns out to be the same player that shot 38%, and wouldn't pass to his teammates, then trade him to Denver.
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s3231
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8/4/2004  1:21 PM
Yea I will definitely miss Frankie, I would have loved for him to become a good player with the Knicks but there is just no room for him if we get Craw. I really like Frank but I think Crawford is more of a need for this team. I'm gonna miss Frank's flashy passes but trading for Crawford is the right move to do.
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2004  4:18 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Sheesh, they didn't get robbed. I mean, we got ourselves a good deal, but they are looking for expiring contracts and veterans. Plus, Frank Williams is still going to be a very good player. I can see him and Heinrick working great together. I like Frank better than Crawford, I've made that clear, but this is a case where both teams have to make the deal. Crawford was a shooting guard to them, and that's what they have Ben Gordon for, and he is waaaay more talented than Crawford, IMO. Different mindset, but much more talented.

I think Frank would fit well under their sysetem, with the type of game he plays. He makes his teammates look good with his penetrate and dish game, and he takes it to the rack, strong. Plus, the Bulls get the expiring contracts that they need.

And as much as I love Frank, he needs minutes at the PG position, and we wasn't always going to get those, behind Marbury and Houston at the SG. And he certainly is no 2, but Crawford is, at times. We need our 2 of the future, so we need to gamble on Crawford, and if he turns out to be the same player that shot 38%, and wouldn't pass to his teammates, then trade him to Denver.
I was just joking in response to the previous blank statement about the Knicks getting robbed. I don't think either team gets robbed. We get the better players; they get tiny expiring contracts and save between $5.5 mil and $8 mil in contractual obligations (depending on which of the rumored deals occur)

As for Jamal, his FG% last year was the *same* as Franks and is higher than Franks for their careers. He also does get a lot of assists for an SG. I suspect that like Marbury, he's always going to be called selfish while getting a ton of assists just because he also can score.
PhilinLA
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8/4/2004  4:27 PM
I always thought Frank lacked a little speed and quickness.
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2004  4:35 PM
Posted by PhilinLA:

I always thought Frank lacked a little speed and quickness.
Frank lacks a lot of speed but is very strong
PhilinLA
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8/4/2004  4:43 PM
Sounds like me as I age.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
martin
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8/4/2004  5:31 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by PhilinLA:

I always thought Frank lacked a little speed and quickness.
Frank lacks a lot of speed but is very strong

Frank lacks overall speed but is deceptively quick. Quick first step.
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Allanfan20
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8/4/2004  5:36 PM
Bonn, I understand where you are coming from, in that it's unfair to call Jamal selfish, b/c he shoots a lot. And you're right, b/c in truth, he is a shooting guard. But I think those 5 assists may be a bit decieving, b/c he is mainly a scorer, not someone who gets his teammates involved. Same with Frank Williams, and his poor 2:1 assist to TO ratio. I think that's deceiving, b/c with the type of game he plays, he penetrates, kicks the ball out, and he initiates TEAM BALL MOVEMENT. Not every pass he makes is an assist. And he hustles and is going to be a VERY GOOD defender, in years to come. His shot will come in time, as he works on it more. He will hit it, once he learns to shoot at the right times, and right places and when he starts to feel confident. And he just goes out and plays. That's why I love Frank so much.

Jamal, overall, is a much better player, and I am not ignorant to deny that. He has a lot more talent. He too, just goes out and plays. Like I said, he's more like a poor mans Ray Allen, except he doesn't get his teammates involved as much. He will learn though. He'll be a good player to have, if this trade goes through.

Again, I am still not a big fan of his, but I wasn't a big fan of Sprewell, when he first came, either. I eventually learned to love him. But even though I think Jamal is the better player, I think Frank is the better fit for the Bulls, and IN THE FUTURE, Jamal is probably the better fit for the Knicks, as they will need a shooting guard, to replace Allan.
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Bonn1997
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8/4/2004  6:26 PM
allanfan, I agree with most of what you said, but here are a few differences.

I actually at this point would view Jamal as a (taller) poor man's Marbury. I think he does the same things Steph does just not quiet as well. He's very quick, a good ball-handler with a very good crossover, and he finishes strong. I think he's already quicker than Ray Allen and their ball-handling is similarly good, but Ray Allen is a far better shooter and better decision maker at this point in their careers.
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It's good we are probably getting Crawford, but I am also sad about Frank Williams:
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