Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

Phil Baelish is Little Fingering his exit strategy from the Knicks to save the Lakers from the Mozgov/Clarkson signings.

meloshouldgo wrote:I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it.

The stupidity of the term 'starfukking' is it's trying to brand what's a personal opinion.

You labeled Melo 'starfukkig' and Horford a legitimate big player apparently completely unaware of his significant injury history, a major part of your own criteria.

The term itself in inherently trollish. You want to argue why Al Horford's 11 and 29 games played in 3 of the last 5 season is irrelevant? Fine, that's a legit conversation. So have it. Placing labels on things in place of reason is just lazy.

From mreinman and chuckbuck I can understand it. They only have so many clubs in their bag.

Seems like you can do better.

What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

Fine, but being a Knicks fans is also a choice. You choose to involve yourself in something that apparently only provides frustration and opposition.

I assume your other lifestyle choices bring you satisfaction of some kind, whatever opposition might exist.

You don't even get that out of being a Knicks fan.

Odd "choice."

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it.

The stupidity of the term 'starfukking' is it's trying to brand what's a personal opinion.

You labeled Melo 'starfukkig' and Horford a legitimate big player apparently completely unaware of his significant injury history, a major part of your own criteria.

The term itself in inherently trollish. You want to argue why Al Horford's 11 and 29 games played in 3 of the last 5 season is irrelevant? Fine, that's a legit conversation. So have it. Placing labels on things in place of reason is just lazy.

From mreinman and chuckbuck I can understand it. They only have so many clubs in their bag.

Seems like you can do better.

What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

Fine, but being a Knicks fans is also a choice. You choose to involve yourself in something that apparently only provides frustration and opposition.

I assume your other lifestyle choices bring you satisfaction of some kind, whatever opposition might exist.

You don't even get that out of being a Knicks fan.

Odd "choice."

Right, because "trollish" is not s label at all. And between the two of us one is showing frustration and it's not me. You are also trying to legislate fanhood and choice. I'll choose whatever I damn please, Thank you very much

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

The first big change was hiring Hornacek. Once that happened the Knicks were looking for a point guard other than what they had in house. The european meetings happened and Rose's name was out there. The front office saw it as an opportunity and took it. Once the trade was done it changed what the Knicks needed for their roster. The coach wants a top 10 defense and dominant dynamic guards. The front office seems to be trying to work with him. The coach now has a voice versus Fisher/Rambis.

top 10 defense? they gave up a very good defender in rolo, a good defensive PG in grant for a guy who can't shoot, has been won of the worst and most inefficient players in the league for 3 straight years and who btw, plays horrible defense.

Is this really what Hornacek wants? Maybe Hornacek does not have the say that people assume he does.

We can all see today how good rolo's contract looked at what he is worth today, 7/1. Getting rose back who at best has a decent turnaround year and commands 30 million a year. What the freak do we do then? Sign a decent Rose to a stupid contract and continue praying?

Oh right ... KP needs playoff experience ... got it.

I think that most smart here agree that this was a bad move, they just can't admit and are forcing themselves to justify it.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it.

The stupidity of the term 'starfukking' is it's trying to brand what's a personal opinion.

You labeled Melo 'starfukkig' and Horford a legitimate big player apparently completely unaware of his significant injury history, a major part of your own criteria.

The term itself in inherently trollish. You want to argue why Al Horford's 11 and 29 games played in 3 of the last 5 season is irrelevant? Fine, that's a legit conversation. So have it. Placing labels on things in place of reason is just lazy.

From mreinman and chuckbuck I can understand it. They only have so many clubs in their bag.

Seems like you can do better.

What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

Fine, but being a Knicks fans is also a choice. You choose to involve yourself in something that apparently only provides frustration and opposition.

I assume your other lifestyle choices bring you satisfaction of some kind, whatever opposition might exist.

You don't even get that out of being a Knicks fan.

Odd "choice."

Right, because "trollish" is not s label at all. And between the two of us one is showing frustration and it's not me. You are also trying to legislate fanhood and choice. I'll choose whatever I damn please, Thank you very much

Defiance about masochism. Got it.

And it it if you guys that consistency try to convince others they're stupid for enjoying being a Knicks fans.

You're like the Congress of fanhood and choice.

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it.

The stupidity of the term 'starfukking' is it's trying to brand what's a personal opinion.

You labeled Melo 'starfukkig' and Horford a legitimate big player apparently completely unaware of his significant injury history, a major part of your own criteria.

The term itself in inherently trollish. You want to argue why Al Horford's 11 and 29 games played in 3 of the last 5 season is irrelevant? Fine, that's a legit conversation. So have it. Placing labels on things in place of reason is just lazy.

From mreinman and chuckbuck I can understand it. They only have so many clubs in their bag.

Seems like you can do better.

What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

Fine, but being a Knicks fans is also a choice. You choose to involve yourself in something that apparently only provides frustration and opposition.

I assume your other lifestyle choices bring you satisfaction of some kind, whatever opposition might exist.

You don't even get that out of being a Knicks fan.

Odd "choice."

Right, because "trollish" is not s label at all. And between the two of us one is showing frustration and it's not me. You are also trying to legislate fanhood and choice. I'll choose whatever I damn please, Thank you very much

Defiance about masochism. Got it.

And it it if you guys that consistency try to convince others they're stupid for enjoying being a Knicks fans.

You're like the Congress of fanhood and choice.

That's what I am talking about. All you can do is resort to insulting people who don't agree with you. Typical.

ChuckBuck wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it.

The stupidity of the term 'starfukking' is it's trying to brand what's a personal opinion.

You labeled Melo 'starfukkig' and Horford a legitimate big player apparently completely unaware of his significant injury history, a major part of your own criteria.

The term itself in inherently trollish. You want to argue why Al Horford's 11 and 29 games played in 3 of the last 5 season is irrelevant? Fine, that's a legit conversation. So have it. Placing labels on things in place of reason is just lazy.

From mreinman and chuckbuck I can understand it. They only have so many clubs in their bag.

Seems like you can do better.

What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

Fine, but being a Knicks fans is also a choice. You choose to involve yourself in something that apparently only provides frustration and opposition.

I assume your other lifestyle choices bring you satisfaction of some kind, whatever opposition might exist.

You don't even get that out of being a Knicks fan.

Odd "choice."

Right, because "trollish" is not s label at all. And between the two of us one is showing frustration and it's not me. You are also trying to legislate fanhood and choice. I'll choose whatever I damn please, Thank you very much

Defiance about masochism. Got it.

And it it if you guys that consistency try to convince others they're stupid for enjoying being a Knicks fans.

You're like the Congress of fanhood and choice.

That's what I am talking about. All you can do is resort to insulting people who don't agree with you. Typical.

knickoftime is this guy

He's never wrong! Just ask him.

CB, take a look at this thread and tell me what comes to mind:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=53073&page=3

deja vu all over again?

mreinman wrote:there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

I haven't been around in some time, so i can't speak for others. I can say I thought there was potential for improvement, but not significant leapfrogging improvement.

But you still called attention to the issue.

You're not even taking issue with the Knicks over their personnel decisions and strategy at this stage.

You're taking issue with your fellow fans.

To what end?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

The first big change was hiring Hornacek. Once that happened the Knicks were looking for a point guard other than what they had in house. The european meetings happened and Rose's name was out there. The front office saw it as an opportunity and took it. Once the trade was done it changed what the Knicks needed for their roster. The coach wants a top 10 defense and dominant dynamic guards. The front office seems to be trying to work with him. The coach now has a voice versus Fisher/Rambis.

top 10 defense? they gave up a very good defender in rolo, a good defensive PG in grant for a guy who can't shoot, has been won of the worst and most inefficient players in the league for 3 straight years and who btw, plays horrible defense.

Is this really what Hornacek wants? Maybe Hornacek does not have the say that people assume he does.

We can all see today how good rolo's contract looked at what he is worth today, 7/1. Getting rose back who at best has a decent turnaround year and commands 30 million a year. What the freak do we do then? Sign a decent Rose to a stupid contract and continue praying?

Oh right ... KP needs playoff experience ... got it.

I think that most smart here agree that this was a bad move, they just can't admit and are forcing themselves to justify it.

Not sure what response you were looking for. I thought you wanted to know what happened and why.

not sure you read what I wrote ... I don't think/believe that this is what hornacek wanted and that he has as much of a say as some are assuming.

You didn't write what you think Hornacek wants. You wrote that Rolo was a good contract and that Rose might bounce back and the Knicks might sign him to an unwise contract. We know Hornacek said he wanted another point guard. We know he said he wants the defense to be top 10. You asked what changed the Knicks approach. I responded and you complained about the trade. I read what you wrote. I thought you wanted a response to the question, what changed.

What I don't understand is what is the exact issue with what Phil has done. Even if he changed his mind SO WHAT? Where is it written that a GM can't have a change of mind? What if he sees an opportunity that can advance the team's building process? Does he just ignore that? I'm just tired of the lame complaints. It's one thing to be opposed to the players on the merits of their actual skills or fit, but to complain about a GM/Prez changing his mind about direction seems petty. EVERY TIME a team fails to win a title or even make the playoffs a GM/Prez is obliged to second guess what he's been doing. He can either continue or make changes that he feels are better.

I blame fill for making a terrible trade (again) and having no freakin clue about what the hell he is doing.

I liked what he did with lance thomas, I liked the lopez signing, I even get the Melo signing, I liked that he hired hornacek (regardless of whether it was a forced move away from his true love), everything else he has done has been a disaster.

Now I know that regardless of what move he makes, you will love and defend it to death so I don't think that you not being mr objective should keep calling people out for not seeing it your way. You only see it one way. You can deny that but that would be a waste of your time.

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:there was a million posts prior to the trade about how the knicks will definitely be better and grant was going to have a great sophomore year and continue growing on his strong season close.

Melo was going to get better since he will be healthier and not weak legged.

KP a year older.

Phil would make some smart signings.

Phil will find some hidden gems in the draft and buy / trade for late picks.

Phil and gaines are scouting european outhouses ....

I did not many here (the yaysayers) including you arguing with this premise. What changed?

I haven't been around in some time, so i can't speak for others. I can say I thought there was potential for improvement, but not significant leapfrogging improvement.

But you still called attention to the issue.

You're not even taking issue with the Knicks over their personnel decisions and strategy at this stage.

You're taking issue with your fellow fans.

To what end?

the fans defending and arguing for the regime regardless of the quality of work. Fans who call others out for being negative when yesterday, they felt completely different and boom a 180.