nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

I have already answered this many times. Keep acquiring assets like Rolo. They are valuable to other teams. And sooner or later opportunity will present itself to trade for a legit star or move them to create enough cap space to sign one outright. In the meantime draft the best talent you can. It's slow process but I would like to see us try it.

You seem to think that the entire NYK brain trust didn't also think of this. Why is it do you suppose that they moved RoLo and brought in Rose? It's because they felt NOW is the time to cash in on RoLo's value. He's coming off a very good season with no injury and his value was high. Waiting wouldn't make him any more valuable and could damage his value if he had an injury or down year.

Also the Knicks have Melo under contract and it makes ZERO sense to just waste his time here if you feel you can put a winning team around him. KP is still the future so nothing changes in that regard but you put KP and Melo in a winning situation and take your shot. This is SMART decision making. You know you have your picks and Rose is an expiring. You're not stuck in terms of your cap flexibility at all.

There's a lot here I disagree with. Given the cap is going up and players are automatically costing more this year and next year Rolo.s contract is worth it's weight in gold. What you call cashing in, I see as wasting on a low value acquisition. Rose isn't why we get stuck, 4 year deal for Noah if it happens is where we get stuck. Remember the last center with health issues we got from the Bulls? I do.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

I have already answered this many times. Keep acquiring assets like Rolo. They are valuable to other teams. And sooner or later opportunity will present itself to trade for a legit star or move them to create enough cap space to sign one outright. In the meantime draft the best talent you can. It's slow process but I would like to see us try it.

You seem to think that the entire NYK brain trust didn't also think of this. Why is it do you suppose that they moved RoLo and brought in Rose? It's because they felt NOW is the time to cash in on RoLo's value. He's coming off a very good season with no injury and his value was high. Waiting wouldn't make him any more valuable and could damage his value if he had an injury or down year.

Also the Knicks have Melo under contract and it makes ZERO sense to just waste his time here if you feel you can put a winning team around him. KP is still the future so nothing changes in that regard but you put KP and Melo in a winning situation and take your shot. This is SMART decision making. You know you have your picks and Rose is an expiring. You're not stuck in terms of your cap flexibility at all.

There's a lot here I disagree with. Given the cap is going up and players are automatically costing more this year and next year Rolo.s contract is worth it's weight in gold. What you call cashing in, I see as wasting on a low value acquisition. Rose isn't why we get stuck, 4 year deal for Noah if it happens is where we get stuck. Remember the last center with health issues we got from the Bulls? I do.

But there is no proactive strategy there. It is passively sitting back, waiting for a team to maybe, what, offer a draft pick (a slow developing lottery ticket in of itself)?

What do the Knicks do THIS offeason? Who do they target?

Surely the Knicks rebuilding plan around Porzingis isn't wait until Robin Lopez can transformed into a star player?

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Now if we were giving Horford a max deal for 4 years - I would have NO ISSUES with that - NONE

I think a lot of teams will offer him a max contract and he'd have no reason to come here. Either Noah really wants to be here or he's expecting that we'll outbid everyone else.

No disagreement. I don't think we have a realistic shot at landing Horford right now. But that is not reason for us to go bid against ourselves on overrated players with injury history or attitude problems. And even if we are bidding against other teams we should only offer what's reasonable. In case of Noah a two year guaranteed contract is reasonable. Sorry for the typos, Swype on new Android phone hasn't settled to my style yet

So what happens when the team only offers what you think are reasonable contracts and then signs no one?

It's a sellers market out there

You keep the assets you have instead of trading for one year rentals that then puts you in the position to get into a bidding war for damaged goods. Or basically use common sense, This stuff is case by case.

your response does not make sense and is a big non-answer. We are not talking about Rose. We are talking about free agents.

Team is KP, Melo, Rose and parts right now. If you wanna add low level dudes to that, that's fine, say it. If you want to build a team, the market this year dictates you overpay by the standards you are setting.

My response was trading Rolo means we now need to bid for starting center and our choice is Noah who is damaged goods. What part of this did not make sense?

Okay, fair enough.

Knicks keep Lopez.

Knicks were a 32 win team with Lopez.

How do the Knicks get better?

I have already answered this many times. Keep acquiring assets like Rolo. They are valuable to other teams. And sooner or later opportunity will present itself to trade for a legit star or move them to create enough cap space to sign one outright. In the meantime draft the best talent you can. It's slow process but I would like to see us try it.

You seem to think that the entire NYK brain trust didn't also think of this. Why is it do you suppose that they moved RoLo and brought in Rose? It's because they felt NOW is the time to cash in on RoLo's value. He's coming off a very good season with no injury and his value was high. Waiting wouldn't make him any more valuable and could damage his value if he had an injury or down year.

Also the Knicks have Melo under contract and it makes ZERO sense to just waste his time here if you feel you can put a winning team around him. KP is still the future so nothing changes in that regard but you put KP and Melo in a winning situation and take your shot. This is SMART decision making. You know you have your picks and Rose is an expiring. You're not stuck in terms of your cap flexibility at all.

There's a lot here I disagree with. Given the cap is going up and players are automatically costing more this year and next year Rolo.s contract is worth it's weight in gold. What you call cashing in, I see as wasting on a low value acquisition. Rose isn't why we get stuck, 4 year deal for Noah if it happens is where we get stuck. Remember the last center with health issues we got from the Bulls? I do.

But there is no proactive strategy there. It is passively sitting back, waiting for a team to maybe, what, offer a draft pick (a slow developing lottery ticket in of itself)?

What do the Knicks do THIS offeason? Who do they target?

Surely the Knicks rebuilding plan around Porzingis isn't wait until Robin Lopez can transformed into a star player?

Lopez wasnt a star player but 12/8/2 in thirty mins aint shabby especially at his deal which afforded more flexibilty . Do you really believe, really believe , really believe that Noah and Rose at this stage are still star players????? As much as I like Noah, he is a solid gritty all around ceneter nm. Rose? He's a reclamation from two years of mediocrity. You guys making it out like we got Westbrook, Lilliard or Curry Please, we got a change, a upgrade a attraction . Would have gotten the same from a faded Deron Williams,, at least Rose his age and some upside. Just keepin it real. Knicks will be better because they are adding some additional bodies that can play but are no longer top tier . Ill be glad to shout to the roof when they add a star

meloanyk wrote:Lopez wasnt a star player but 12/8/2 in thirty mins aint shabby especially at his deal which afforded more flexibilty . Do you really believe, really believe , really believe that Noah and Rose at this stage are still star players????? As much as I like Noah, he is a solid gritty all around ceneter nm.

The CURRENT version of Noah is far and away the best passing center in the game. Which paired next to KP, is a big deal. That's a brain/vision skill. Wasn't diminished last year and no reason it should be this year. And it's a criminally overlooked part of his game.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a defensively engaged defender and rebounder.

The CURRENT version of Noah doesn't require shots to keep him engaged.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a vocal leader who isn't intimated by anyone and relentlessly competes. In this regard, he's a different animal that Lopez. Lopez was a great teammate as far i could tell. Noah is a tone setter.

Are his physical tools what they once were? Maybe and probably not.

But from every other standpoint, you couldn't build a better player in a lab to play in the same front court with Melo and KP.

I don't know what his deal will be and I'll reserve judgement until then. But I'll take 75% of Noah to play with the particularly front court players the Knicks have over just about all other realistic options, including Robin Lopez.

Knickoftime wrote:

meloanyk wrote:Lopez wasnt a star player but 12/8/2 in thirty mins aint shabby especially at his deal which afforded more flexibilty . Do you really believe, really believe , really believe that Noah and Rose at this stage are still star players????? As much as I like Noah, he is a solid gritty all around ceneter nm.

The CURRENT version of Noah is far and away the best passing center in the game. Which paired next to KP, is a big deal. That's a brain/vision skill. Wasn't diminished last year and no reason it should be this year. And it's a criminally overlooked part of his game.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a defensively engaged defender and rebounder.

The CURRENT version of Noah doesn't require shots to keep him engaged.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a vocal leader who isn't intimated by anyone and relentlessly competes. In this regard, he's a different animal that Lopez. Lopez was a great teammate as far i could tell. Noah is a tone setter.

Are his physical tools what they once were? Maybe and probably not.

But from every other standpoint, you couldn't build a better player in a lab to play in the same front court with Melo and KP.

I don't know what his deal will be and I'll reserve judgement until then. But I'll take 75% of Noah to play with the particularly front court players the Knicks have over just about all other realistic options, including Robin Lopez.

These things sum it for me for nicely regarding Noah. Rolo protected KP from playing the 5, he had a bit of upside on the offensive end that I still feel is untapped but it is limited, especially guarding and shooting away from the basket. Rolo didn't make the team as a whole or KP better by himself, which is EXACTLY what Noah does without needing touches on the offensive end. In years 3, 4 you can move him to the bench if he is that diminished or if KP is ready; you can also limit his minutes with KP and others at the 5 over the course of his contact. Noah moves the needle BIG TIME defensively as a motivator that won't back down from the likes of Rose or Melo and can also teach KP (Willy, KOQ, big men), Rolo wouldn't be able to do that.

martin wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloanyk wrote:Lopez wasnt a star player but 12/8/2 in thirty mins aint shabby especially at his deal which afforded more flexibilty . Do you really believe, really believe , really believe that Noah and Rose at this stage are still star players????? As much as I like Noah, he is a solid gritty all around ceneter nm.

The CURRENT version of Noah is far and away the best passing center in the game. Which paired next to KP, is a big deal. That's a brain/vision skill. Wasn't diminished last year and no reason it should be this year. And it's a criminally overlooked part of his game.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a defensively engaged defender and rebounder.

The CURRENT version of Noah doesn't require shots to keep him engaged.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a vocal leader who isn't intimated by anyone and relentlessly competes. In this regard, he's a different animal that Lopez. Lopez was a great teammate as far i could tell. Noah is a tone setter.

Are his physical tools what they once were? Maybe and probably not.

But from every other standpoint, you couldn't build a better player in a lab to play in the same front court with Melo and KP.

I don't know what his deal will be and I'll reserve judgement until then. But I'll take 75% of Noah to play with the particularly front court players the Knicks have over just about all other realistic options, including Robin Lopez.

So you wouldn't mind paying Noah $18m per year in years 3 and 4 when he's 50% of Noah and 25% of Noah just to get your 75% of Noah this year?

It's a remote possibility - as with any player - but it's not a realistic scenario.

Uhm, he'll be 34 and 35 in years 3 and 4. It's a near certainty. Are you saying we'll be competing for titles each of these 4 years, because that's the only way this signing makes sense.

Knickoftime wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloanyk wrote:Lopez wasnt a star player but 12/8/2 in thirty mins aint shabby especially at his deal which afforded more flexibilty . Do you really believe, really believe , really believe that Noah and Rose at this stage are still star players????? As much as I like Noah, he is a solid gritty all around ceneter nm.

The CURRENT version of Noah is far and away the best passing center in the game. Which paired next to KP, is a big deal. That's a brain/vision skill. Wasn't diminished last year and no reason it should be this year. And it's a criminally overlooked part of his game.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a defensively engaged defender and rebounder.

The CURRENT version of Noah doesn't require shots to keep him engaged.

The CURRENT version of Noah is a vocal leader who isn't intimated by anyone and relentlessly competes. In this regard, he's a different animal that Lopez. Lopez was a great teammate as far i could tell. Noah is a tone setter.

Are his physical tools what they once were? Maybe and probably not.

But from every other standpoint, you couldn't build a better player in a lab to play in the same front court with Melo and KP.

I don't know what his deal will be and I'll reserve judgement until then. But I'll take 75% of Noah to play with the particularly front court players the Knicks have over just about all other realistic options, including Robin Lopez.

So you wouldn't mind paying Noah $18m per year in years 3 and 4 when he's 50% of Noah and 25% of Noah just to get your 75% of Noah this year?

I don't comment on deals until deals are done.

Ask when the deal is complete and the details are known. I'll answer.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:No, the I only proactive part is drafting, and acquiring assets like Robin Lopez, this isn't hard is it? Get players with a few years left on their deals at reasonable salaries and use the cap space to absorb their contracts. Contracts like that can be moved anytime. And yes my preferred strategy would be to wait and watch and to be opportunisric. I see absolutely no need to do anything this year unless what we do adds to our asset base instead of subtracting from it.I don't have names, I am talking about overall strategy and you are asking for operational details. I don't have the time to research who is available at what price. Feel free to hold that against me

Its not a matter of holding it against you.

You're just the fan of the wrong team and wrong sport.

Knicks just aren't going to sit back, knowingly field a marginal team and wait for vague, unspecific opportunity even the critics of the moves do they make can't identify.

I'm not even criticizing your preferred strategy, it's a personal valid, preference.

What I can say is that it's impractical. Its just not happening, you are by meaning of the term shouting at the rain.

Free agency started today. Knicks have $30m dollars, and the Knicks WILL try to get better than last year, which I promise you the players they do have and the majority of the fanbase, including the paying and watching at home ones, endorse.

You're advocating doing nothing.

The 'strategy' is doubly problematic when you consider that who YOU define as "opportunistic" and "assets" is entirely a subjective qualification. Whether a move they make qualifies will be strictly a matter of your personal whim.

Which is again, fine. I genuinely don't begrudge you that. But to come here and just constantly tear the Knicks and fans who disagree with you a new one for NOT doing nothing just seems like a exercise in utter futility.

Knicks are going to try to get better. They're going to use the tools at their disposal to do so. The majority of people invested in the team want them to.

Do you really think them doing nothing is a viable scenario?

You seem smarter than that.

I wasn't aware of having torn anyone. I thought the whole point of a forum is to present your POV and have this type of back and forth discussion. Now, I do make use of sarcasm and that's my waiting style, but I don't have anything against anyone here. If y'all are only looking for people who by and large agree with your own POV then that would make this a very boring forum.

I get it that the fanbase largely approves of starfukking but that isn't reason for me to change my opinion of it. What the Knicks are doing now doesn't gel with my motion of what they should be doing and was I was merely stating that. I have no desire of changing behavior or expectations by doing so.I am very comfortable being part of the vocal minority, It's a lifestyle choice, I made long ago and it isn't limited to my position about the Knicks.

knickoftime M.O. as a Knicks fan is bend over and take it mister!