Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

mreinman wrote:lopez was a very good player on a good contract. what value did that get us in return?

Remains to be seen, is the only correct answer, no?

Unless we want to indulge in the same sort of 'x is 1000x better than y' stuff before the season starts.

you can say that with any trade. We are talking about (on a MB) what it looks like as of now.

Correct, but its only fair we evaluate who Rose is NOW. A young player with legitimate injury/performance history with legitimate talent who was significantly better in the second half of last season than the first.

They didn't trade Lopez for a guy whose ceiling is the Rose of the last few years.

What the Knicks think they may know about where he is physically is a factor. Rose may well turn out to be a bust. Very, very possible.

But to suggest there is no potential there for the Knicks having gotten the best player in the trade by far is playing the same game you criticized Briggs for.

whats the potential? 5? 10%? People keep saying that we got the best player in the trade. Lopez is 100x the player that Rose is today.

why trade an asset that is worth much more on the open market than that? Watch what people are going to pay for a player like him this off season. And we throw in grant who 80% of the board was salivating about his future and how good he looked at the end of the season. Did he have trade value?

Steve Francis 2.0 unless we see otherwise.

Right now, this trade seems like a really really stupid one.

These are the things that contributed to Rose having a poor start last year:

09/29/2015 Orbital fracture
02/24/2015 Torn right knee meniscus

Having to rehab after the Knee Surgery is one thing but then dealing with double vision after the Orbital Fracture is yet another thing. Rose has been an injury magnet for sure, but in terms of him being able to play a better brand of basketball next season barring another serious setback, that seems extremely logical.

Knicks checked his knees and overall health and were very pleased. Rose has been able to work on his game and conditioning this summer and that is a change from previous offseasons. If you only base your prediction off the stats from last season you really are missing the Forest for the Trees. Rose was not going full tilt last year and he was hampered by some things that aren't the case this summer. I believe that Rose is very much capable of having a comeback season for the Knicks next year, especially on a team with Melo and KP. Plus the cap space to add even more talent.

how about we base it on the last 3 years?

That's totally fair to significantly consider that, maybe even weigh it a little more heavily.

But anyone who claims not to "get" the trade, not to understand the rationale and/or the risk/reward is lying.

Anyone who professes to claim they know exactly how this trade works out doesn't understand a second of any professional sport they've ever watched.

Totally get that people are leaning one way or another, but anyone leaning too hard in either direction runs the risk of tipping over.

Jose Calderon is better basketball player than Derrick Rose, and I have the stats to prove it.

To embrace this fun you must understand there are people on this board that believe the above statement

Rose was one of the few worst players in the league the last few years, jose was just plain bad.

you can hang up your slogan on your wall if you'd like but this reasoning / argument for Rose being not terrible is how we knicks fans always accept the starphuck player.

Is it a complete starphuck disaster? No. We are not stuck with him. Was it a bad trade where we gave up good value for a starphuck? Of course it was.

Also funny how Grant was everybody's boy before he got traded and Nix flashed his great stats improvement under Rambis. Everyone was thrilled with him as our core and future starter. You too, know? Where did everyone run? Grant now is a stinky afterthought?

I liked and still like Grant. I thought he had another level JH could quickly get him to. I like Lopez also. I am not a big fan of the Rose trade. However I understand why it was done. I also don't pretend stupid things like Jose is a better player than Rose.

you don't pretend them because you are blinded by your clouded memory of what Rose used to be and like everyone else, has a hard time differentiating MVP Rose to One Of The Worst Players In The League Rose.

the only blindness here is you. You need to step away from BBreference's advanced page and go watch some basketball. Rose the MVP may never be coming back but Rose the all star still makes plenty of appearances.

If its YOU vs. UK than maybe the problem is how you frame your arguments. Rose has been hurt and there are plenty here, myself included with big concerns about his health and whether the trade is worth it.

However you are selling people that Jose is a better player, that is a useless sell because its not true and really as dumb a statement as I have read on this forum. Rose does things on the court that Jose cant. Lots of things. Jose does nothing on the court that Rose cant. Nothing. So if its you vs. UK maybe you should focus on the risk part, because you could not be more wrong about the basketball part.

attacking me instead of my argument is a weak position.

Jose stinks less because he takes and misses many fewer shots. Rose may look really pretty to you creating really bad acrobatic misses but misses are misses.

Its really not me against everyone ... I have some less blinded posters who see how bad Rose is (yellow, gustav, bonn). Not sure they would agree with my Jose vs Rose take (aside from Bonn maybe)

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

wow... suddenly your verbiage has changed.

it hasn't changed.

fishmike, keep it civil as I have. thx

Im super civil.

I would obviously trade Jose for Rose just based on the long shot that he will give us a good year. Jose does not really do much for us unless we just use him as a spot up shooter.

That's a big change in verbiage from pounding home how Calderon is a superior player.

careers?

who was the better player last year?

Exhibit A: Point guard/team leader on a 42 win team

Exhibit B: Point guard/team leader on a 32 win team.

Some things aren't so easy to qualify.

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

fitzfarm wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

I didn't like the trade. Is what it is. Not the direction I would have gone but OK.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

You are either referring to the younger healthier version of Rose or the version of Rose you envision next year - not how he actually played recently. I don't think he was elevating anyone by scoring 16 points on 16 shots a game (or 96 points per 100 possessions).

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

to anyone who follows the game... its silly. I get that some don't like the trade but what is being said to support their arguments is silly, and that word choice is putting it VERY nicely.

I didn't like the trade. Is what it is. Not the direction I would have gone but OK.

If Rose had played on our team last year and put up the exact same production (16 points, 16 shots a game; 96 points per 100 possessions), do you think we'd win more games than we did? How many? There's nothing silly here - people are just disagreeing on how important recent past performance vs. reports of currently being healthy are.

I think you'd see higher production from Carmelo Anthony and Kristaps Porzingis as Rose created easier shots for them.

Where's the metric for how a player penetrating creates open looks for other players? Is there a metric for quality of shot created for teammates?

Rose himself admitted he was just trying to get through last season healthy - it was about building confidence. Who knows if he can stay healthy for a full season, but as many have pointed out, it is low risk, high reward.

But, yes, I think even if we had last season's version of Rose on the Knicks vs last year's version of Jose, our record would have been better.

To argue that Jose is better than Rose is just a ridiculous argument. You want to argue they gave up too much? Fine. You want to argue it is too risky? Legit. Calderon is better than Rose? You lost me.

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

to anyone who follows the game... its silly. I get that some don't like the trade but what is being said to support their arguments is silly, and that word choice is putting it VERY nicely.

I didn't like the trade. Is what it is. Not the direction I would have gone but OK.

If Rose had played on our team last year and put up the exact same production (16 points, 16 shots a game; 96 points per 100 possessions), do you think we'd win more games than we did? How many? There's nothing silly here - people are just disagreeing on how important recent past performance vs. reports of currently being healthy are.

I think you'd see higher production from Carmelo Anthony and Kristaps Porzingis as Rose created easier shots for them.

Where's the metric for how a player penetrating creates open looks for other players? Is there a metric for quality of shot created for teammates?

Rose himself admitted he was just trying to get through last season healthy - it was about building confidence. Who knows if he can stay healthy for a full season, but as many have pointed out, it is low risk, high reward.

But, yes, I think even if we had last season's version of Rose on the Knicks vs last year's version of Jose, our record would have been better.

To argue that Jose is better than Rose is just a ridiculous argument. You want to argue they gave up too much? Fine. You want to argue it is too risky? Legit. Calderon is better than Rose? You lost me.

No one argued Calderon is better than Rose as far as I can tell. I and many others would say that Rose hurt his teams on offense the past few years more than Calderon did.

To not acknowledge the difference in the roles they played is facetious at best

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Is Jose worse or Better than Rose? I think you can argue that he is better but I don't see the argument for Rose being better if you are judging Rose on his last 3 seasons.

I do think Jose is overvalued because of his efficiency but his extremely low usage nullifies his efficiency. Fish says Jose is not good enough to take the kind of shots Rose takes and I agree. However, Rose himself is not good enough to take the kind of shots he takes. On top of that Rose is an awful defender who doesn't pass the ball anymore. He wasn't a top distributor for a pg to begin with.

Rose has basically been playing like Jerian Grant except he was not a rookie.

Wow I couldn't disagree with you more , Jose is brokendown old garbage and I danced a jig just to hear he was gone . Rose is a better all around player in every aspect of the game. Esp elevating his teammates play something Jose is awful at also a team leader something Jose can't do cause he is a terrible player. People wanna play with rose, how many top free agents are jumping at the bit to play with Jose, zero.

Jose and rose in the same sentence is a disgrace to rose.

to anyone who follows the game... its silly. I get that some don't like the trade but what is being said to support their arguments is silly, and that word choice is putting it VERY nicely.

I didn't like the trade. Is what it is. Not the direction I would have gone but OK.

If Rose had played on our team last year and put up the exact same production (16 points, 16 shots a game; 96 points per 100 possessions), do you think we'd win more games than we did? How many? There's nothing silly here - people are just disagreeing on how important recent past performance vs. reports of currently being healthy are.

I think you'd see higher production from Carmelo Anthony and Kristaps Porzingis as Rose created easier shots for them.

Where's the metric for how a player penetrating creates open looks for other players? Is there a metric for quality of shot created for teammates?

Rose himself admitted he was just trying to get through last season healthy - it was about building confidence. Who knows if he can stay healthy for a full season, but as many have pointed out, it is low risk, high reward.

But, yes, I think even if we had last season's version of Rose on the Knicks vs last year's version of Jose, our record would have been better.

To argue that Jose is better than Rose is just a ridiculous argument. You want to argue they gave up too much? Fine. You want to argue it is too risky? Legit. Calderon is better than Rose? You lost me.

No one argued Calderon is better than Rose as far as I can tell. I and many others would say that Rose hurt his teams on offense the past few years more than Calderon did.

To not acknowledge the difference in the roles they played is facetious at best

OK, I acknowledge they played different roles

now that is as facetious as it gets.

And how did they do in their respective rolls? Help ? Hurt ?

Kendall Gill's prediction for Rose next year:
“Derrick Rose… He will be an All-Star next year.”

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/06/26/new-york-knicks-derrick-rose-game-changer/

CrushAlot wrote:

A source not affiliated with Derrick Rose or the Knicks came away impressed with how lean and explosive the former All-Star point guard looked after seeing Rose work out recently in Los Angeles.

http://espn.go.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0538003852700424186-4