mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:Cavs had one of those nights where the good shots did not fall and they did not get to the line.
Raptors had it going on.

And Toronto is playing without one of their best players ...

I could not for the life of me understand how anyone can knock them or their situation and also somehow insinuate that we have a brighter outlook.

Once big time Knicks fan and a staple of the UK community DJsunyc defected to become a Raptors fans due to Andrea Bargnani(not the trade but because he actually likes the player).

So his buddies(Like Enyspree) **** on Toronto all the time probably to talk **** to him. This thread was probably created with that in mind to trash talk DJ. Could also have been an over reaction due to them getting spanked the first 2 games.

With that said we have seen teams like the Raptors come and go. There is nothing at the moment that convinces me that they will win a chip and getting a needle mover in there position is probably the hardest part of building a championship team.

They should trade that #9 pick with Ross and try ans try and push that needle.

The only teams that look like teams that can win ring(s) are GS and Cleveland.

OKC does not look like a long term winning team even if they somehow can get hot and shock the world.

Cleveland can win it all because they have Lebron.

There is no one else. Toronto is right there in the next tier. We are in tier 10 right now

So the hope is that KP becomes that KG or Dirk type of impact player. While Toronto runs its course stuck under the Cavs lacking that superstar.

but that is just hope right now, no? KP right now is just a young player with a lot of promise that we hope blossoms into a star.

Right now, there are three players on Toronto that are better than KP.

All we have now is KP hope and even if he beats the huge odds and becomes a superstar, he is till only one guy.

But at the end of the day Toronto with all there success is still looking for a player with KP type potential to take the next step. So if KP does indeed turn into that type of player. It would be a lot harder for Toronto to find a KP level player then it would be fore the Knicks to find quality players to put along with KP.

Toronto went game 7 with the Pacers in the first round of the playoffs. The Pacers have 30mil in cap space. A legit superstar in Paul George. A developing prospect in Miles Turner who already got a taste of playoff basketball. And solid vets like Hill, Ellis, Miles, Mahinmi. They could potentially make gains to surpass Toronto as fast as next season.

If Kp becomes a superstar which I would say is I don't know, a 20% chance? Then they need to surround him and that is not easy either.

Toronto is more in the mold of that detroit team that won without a mega star.

It would also be nice if Jonas V. was playing. He makes them much better. I think that they can get to six against cleveland because they are such a great home team but they are not that good on the road so I can't see them taking a game in Cleveland.

Toronto can hit with the number 9 pick and perhaps they will make a trade. Lets not underestimate Ujiri who is one of the best though Carol is not looking like a good move right now but Cory Joseph was a great pickup.

I could say they are in the mold of the Detroit team. But they aren't on that level. Pistons used to hold teams to under 70pts. Maybe in the new NBA thats a lot harder to do. But they don't have dominance they way Ben Wallace & Rasheed Wallace would defensively.

KP is a modern NBA's wet dream. He has the potential to guard PNR (bigs or guards) well, rim protect, help defense, control the glass. Offensively he can stretch the floor to open up penetration. So not only can he help guards out defensively but he also can open the paint for them offensively. He can get buckets without plays called for him due to his length around the rim with highlight put backs and tips ins or shooting ability. Then there is the PNR or PNP. At 7'3 he could shoot over anyone. Or put the ball on the floor and finish around the rim due to his length. If he does draw contact he is a good FT shooter. If he develops some go to post moves like the turn around jumper he becomes unguarded. None of this even gets into his character, work ethic, desire to be a great player.

There aren't many players in the league at this moment that have his potential skill set and he has displayed all of these things already as a rookie. There is a reason why execs and scouts and coaches have all been heaping praise over him all yr long. The only real question around him is can he get stronger so he doesn't get pushed around in the paint. And can he avoid the injury bug, though that's a concern for every player in the league.

So when we view KP as a potential superstar its because we are looking at his potential skill set offensively and defensively which is rare in the NBA. Its why a player like Draymond Green has excelled to star status. Or Shawn Marion was able to ball out though he was unheralded. Rasheed Wallace in the same boat. That type of defense, with floor spacing. Add in the PNR and or Post moves...

I can definitely see how KP is a wet dream type player. My worry and I assume is the biggest detractor is his size. IS KP TOO DAMN BIG? How does a guy with that size and that kind of game stay healthy long term?

What are the use cases for this? How many 7 3 guys were there? How many had long term health? How many of them where this agile?

Mutumbo, Ewing, chamberlin, Jabbar, bellamy, Duncan, Thurmand, Kevin Willis, KG, Dirk, Parish, THe dream, mark eaton, Gilmore, Tree Rollins, Moses Malone, Caldwell jones, Shaq, Rashweed,,,,,,

These guy all were 6-11 or taller and had long-ass careers. They were all pretty agile at 19 years old. except for KG and Kirk, they all were 19 in college.
How they started and finished careers were all similar, they got stronger and less agile.

6-11 is not 7-3

KP is rare but not a mystery anymore. We just watched him in a real NBA season and he was very good. He will need time to grow into his frame but from what i've seen he's gonna be a handful when he's stronger and more developed. KP knows now that he belongs and that he can dominate and we know he wants to be great. Those things will work in his favor.

The change of Head Coach could be the biggest plus in his favor. More PnR and 3pt looks for KP is gonna likely make him a scary scoring threat. Better guards will also help KP to get more easy looks. IMO KP has a VERY good chance to reach All Star level and possibly Superstar if things work out just right.

I can understand your optimism about the KP the player but I am most worried about KP the injured player. I think that most people are worried about this based on his size/build.

Guys that size deal with numerous injuries that smaller guys may not have to deal with.

A guy like Mozgov is the same thing. Guys that size are just more prone to injury. That comes with the huge upside to have a guy that size and skill who avoids injury / plays more than 75% games.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:
If Kp becomes a superstar which I would say is I don't know, a 20% chance? Then they need to surround him and that is not easy either.

Toronto is more in the mold of that detroit team that won without a mega star.

It would also be nice if Jonas V. was playing. He makes them much better. I think that they can get to six against cleveland because they are such a great home team but they are not that good on the road so I can't see them taking a game in Cleveland.

Toronto can hit with the number 9 pick and perhaps they will make a trade. Lets not underestimate Ujiri who is one of the best though Carol is not looking like a good move right now but Cory Joseph was a great pickup.

What are you using to gauge if KP has only a 20% chance of being a Superstar? Is there a study that puts some perspective on how you might come up with that?

I just figured I would take Bonn's 15% prediction and up it to 20%. 20% may be high but heck ... I'm a knicks fan.

So how did Bonn come up with his 15%? Seems somewhat random. I'm gonna have to look into that.

Even if we assume KP makes only modest improvement from where he was at as a 20 year old rookie, that's still a very good player to build around. Just him maturing physically will make a huge difference in his game. He hasn't grown into his frame yet.

Seems to me that with a change in offensive focus KP is primed to take off. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of progress the Knicks make next year. How much improvement can they make in closing the gap between them and the playoff teams this year.

fishmike wrote:Toronto is in great shape. They have good players, a good cap and extra picks. With decent management they should be a 2nd round playoff team for man years. The problem is they remind me a bit of the Hawks of the 90s. Steve Smith, Mookie, Willis, they had lot of good teams, always made the playoffs, often advanced, and everyone knew they were did not have the ponies to contend. Toronto is facing similar. The problem is their best players are a notch below the elite guys and its tough to grind out 7 game series against teams that have the 2 best players on the floor.

I think the Knick optimism is just that with KP you have the unicorn player (potentially) and building around that is always easier than building around 3-4 really good players.

You making a great case for a hinkie tank.

funny that we say that teams that are winners don't have the super duper star(s) to win it all but how does a team actually get those super duper stars?

Can used both sides of that argument.

What all you guys are calling out is an issue with NBA purgatory (even though Toronto is way better than that but not the point).

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:Cavs had one of those nights where the good shots did not fall and they did not get to the line.
Raptors had it going on.

And Toronto is playing without one of their best players ...

I could not for the life of me understand how anyone can knock them or their situation and also somehow insinuate that we have a brighter outlook.

Once big time Knicks fan and a staple of the UK community DJsunyc defected to become a Raptors fans due to Andrea Bargnani(not the trade but because he actually likes the player).

So his buddies(Like Enyspree) **** on Toronto all the time probably to talk **** to him. This thread was probably created with that in mind to trash talk DJ. Could also have been an over reaction due to them getting spanked the first 2 games.

With that said we have seen teams like the Raptors come and go. There is nothing at the moment that convinces me that they will win a chip and getting a needle mover in there position is probably the hardest part of building a championship team.

They should trade that #9 pick with Ross and try ans try and push that needle.

The only teams that look like teams that can win ring(s) are GS and Cleveland.

OKC does not look like a long term winning team even if they somehow can get hot and shock the world.

Cleveland can win it all because they have Lebron.

There is no one else. Toronto is right there in the next tier. We are in tier 10 right now

So the hope is that KP becomes that KG or Dirk type of impact player. While Toronto runs its course stuck under the Cavs lacking that superstar.

but that is just hope right now, no? KP right now is just a young player with a lot of promise that we hope blossoms into a star.

Right now, there are three players on Toronto that are better than KP.

All we have now is KP hope and even if he beats the huge odds and becomes a superstar, he is till only one guy.

But at the end of the day Toronto with all there success is still looking for a player with KP type potential to take the next step. So if KP does indeed turn into that type of player. It would be a lot harder for Toronto to find a KP level player then it would be fore the Knicks to find quality players to put along with KP.

Toronto went game 7 with the Pacers in the first round of the playoffs. The Pacers have 30mil in cap space. A legit superstar in Paul George. A developing prospect in Miles Turner who already got a taste of playoff basketball. And solid vets like Hill, Ellis, Miles, Mahinmi. They could potentially make gains to surpass Toronto as fast as next season.

If Kp becomes a superstar which I would say is I don't know, a 20% chance? Then they need to surround him and that is not easy either.

Toronto is more in the mold of that detroit team that won without a mega star.

It would also be nice if Jonas V. was playing. He makes them much better. I think that they can get to six against cleveland because they are such a great home team but they are not that good on the road so I can't see them taking a game in Cleveland.

Toronto can hit with the number 9 pick and perhaps they will make a trade. Lets not underestimate Ujiri who is one of the best though Carol is not looking like a good move right now but Cory Joseph was a great pickup.

I could say they are in the mold of the Detroit team. But they aren't on that level. Pistons used to hold teams to under 70pts. Maybe in the new NBA thats a lot harder to do. But they don't have dominance they way Ben Wallace & Rasheed Wallace would defensively.

KP is a modern NBA's wet dream. He has the potential to guard PNR (bigs or guards) well, rim protect, help defense, control the glass. Offensively he can stretch the floor to open up penetration. So not only can he help guards out defensively but he also can open the paint for them offensively. He can get buckets without plays called for him due to his length around the rim with highlight put backs and tips ins or shooting ability. Then there is the PNR or PNP. At 7'3 he could shoot over anyone. Or put the ball on the floor and finish around the rim due to his length. If he does draw contact he is a good FT shooter. If he develops some go to post moves like the turn around jumper he becomes unguarded. None of this even gets into his character, work ethic, desire to be a great player.

There aren't many players in the league at this moment that have his potential skill set and he has displayed all of these things already as a rookie. There is a reason why execs and scouts and coaches have all been heaping praise over him all yr long. The only real question around him is can he get stronger so he doesn't get pushed around in the paint. And can he avoid the injury bug, though that's a concern for every player in the league.

So when we view KP as a potential superstar its because we are looking at his potential skill set offensively and defensively which is rare in the NBA. Its why a player like Draymond Green has excelled to star status. Or Shawn Marion was able to ball out though he was unheralded. Rasheed Wallace in the same boat. That type of defense, with floor spacing. Add in the PNR and or Post moves...

I can definitely see how KP is a wet dream type player. My worry and I assume is the biggest detractor is his size. IS KP TOO DAMN BIG? How does a guy with that size and that kind of game stay healthy long term?

What are the use cases for this? How many 7 3 guys were there? How many had long term health? How many of them where this agile?

Mutumbo, Ewing, chamberlin, Jabbar, bellamy, Duncan, Thurmand, Kevin Willis, KG, Dirk, Parish, THe dream, mark eaton, Gilmore, Tree Rollins, Moses Malone, Caldwell jones, Shaq, Rashweed,,,,,,

These guy all were 6-11 or taller and had long-ass careers. They were all pretty agile at 19 years old. except for KG and Kirk, they all were 19 in college.
How they started and finished careers were all similar, they got stronger and less agile.

6-11 is not 7-3

KP is rare but not a mystery anymore. We just watched him in a real NBA season and he was very good. He will need time to grow into his frame but from what i've seen he's gonna be a handful when he's stronger and more developed. KP knows now that he belongs and that he can dominate and we know he wants to be great. Those things will work in his favor.

The change of Head Coach could be the biggest plus in his favor. More PnR and 3pt looks for KP is gonna likely make him a scary scoring threat. Better guards will also help KP to get more easy looks. IMO KP has a VERY good chance to reach All Star level and possibly Superstar if things work out just right.

I can understand your optimism about the KP the player but I am most worried about KP the injured player. I think that most people are worried about this based on his size/build.

Guys that size deal with numerous injuries that smaller guys may not have to deal with.

A guy like Mozgov is the same thing. Guys that size are just more prone to injury. That comes with the huge upside to have a guy that size and skill who avoids injury / plays more than 75% games.

Mosgov is nothing like KP physically. KP is built like a smaller player, moves like one and most importantly lands like one. If there is a player he is similar to physically its Durant, who moves like 6 foot skinny guy but is actually a 7 foot skinny guy with 7'3 wingspan. If you want to learn something about KP watch his feet when he lands.

Kevin Durant is a great example though there is still a big difference in height. Having said that, the main worry about KD was durability. He happened to have far exceeded expectations but again, its still a huge risk especially with a player that is 7-3.

I love that he is ours and I actually like him even better than Towns with his crazy up side, though people need to temper their expectations as far as assuming that he is going to be a guaranteed superstar. Chances are still very much against that even though he is on a great path.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

wargames wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

djsunyc wrote:martin - the raptors have a payroll of $71 mil. that's 24th. that means there are 23 other teams with higher payrolls in the league. it's a pretty crazy accomplishment to be in the final 4 with such a low payroll. almost never happens. next lowest is gsw and they have $22 mil more.

our big contract will be derozan and while alot of folks don't like his game (myself included) - he is a huge reason we win games in the regular season so his value is that of a max player. ujiri is always about asset retention - and signing dd to the max will fall into that category. and if we chose to move on from lowry after next season, then moving dd will actually be quite easy with an even bigger cap next year. i also think that he would fit into a better systemic offense that casey doesn't instill. (side note - after we dealt rudy and lowry was almost a knick, we also had a dd for beldsoe deal lined up as well).

we have 4 first round picks the next 2 drafts - knicks and our own this draft, clippers and our own next draft.

you make the best with what you've got. we have improved every year as a team the past 5 seasons. and now we've finally made it to the ecf's. we just aren't anywhere near as good as cleveland - they are on another level. and yes, missing jonas is a huge factor b/c he's the one guy that can get easy baskets. cleveland would have no answer for him and he was dominating (star like) in the playoffs until his injury. he was a game changer and we may have been able to get 2 games if he was healthy. but w/o him, and on the heels of 2 seven games series, there was no shot. especially not with the way lebron + kryie + love are all clicking.

the east is good, it's just not top heavy. but to say toronto sucks is just something fans of crappy teams say. but it's eny - he still has a qyntel woods picture on his wall.

we are the best of the 2nd tier teams in the league - nothing wrong with that. final 4. i would say cle + gsw + sas are all better and we are on par with okc. last time the knicks were in the final 4 was in 1999 (a strike shortened season). that's 16 years. and it could be 16 more - there are no guarantees in sports. that's why you take the good when they give it to you.

we are probably going to ride out this current toronto core for another year at least and then see what happens after that.

can we get that much better? well much better means we are championship level so the realistic answer is no and this is as good as this core is going to get. if love + kyrie was out this year instead of last and if jonas was healthy - we are going to the finals. so sometimes luck plays into it - luck and timing. with that said, we could still add a piece to the mix like batum or horford. the good thing about winning is that players values go up which makes deals easier to make and the team more attractive. pivoting from our situation will be quite easy and we have one of the best gm's. 64 wins on the season so far - i'll take it.

the one thing toronto has to deal with that no other team does is that it's in a foreign country. only b/c of the latest success of the franchise have folks actually thinking it's ok to play in toronto. if the team was still losing, it would still be considered siberia.

few other things to address from this thread:

chandler - even tho we kept improving the past 5 years - my biggest gripe with casey is our offensive system. he relies too much on lowry + dd to carry the load. we did see an adjustment and saw us using jonas alot more in the playoffs but overall, it's still an iso-heavy guard team. maybe changing the offense will help but you still need the guards to hit shots and lowry + dd's shot really struggled for most of the playoffs.

swish - carroll was hurt alot of the year. but when he played, he made an impact. we just don't maximize his offensive output based on our iso heavy style of play. but he has provided everything we needed when we signed him in the offseason. he just is no match for lebron - but he allowed us to single cover george + wade which is huge considering alot of folks would have to help/switch or double. if he didn't get hurt, we may have 60 wins this year and then the #1 seed - then maybe we split the first two games at home and outlook is a little different.

wh4t - the knicks are 1 or 2 pieces away to get to #2. the knicks are 1-2 starters and 3-4 bench players away. need to get a quality guard with breakdown and takeover potential and the team needs alot of depth.

knicks1248 - we are a very good 3 point shooting team - but the two 7 game series have tired us out. we are missing wide open looks - tired legs. but without the jonas release valve - our offense is even easier to guard with free safety lebron.

you make good points DJ. Im a diehard knick fan but we have no right to criticize the raptors. You are already a good team plus you are loaded with first rounders including our lottery pick from the insanely stupid bargnani trade

EAD and go to your own team's forum with this....

he didnt create this thread, EnySpree did. It was a unecessary thread to begin with plus it makes our fans look foolish since Toronto was in the ECF AND have our lotto pick

Exactly. Any outsider would rate their team's situation as exponentially better than ours.

That's obvious to "insiders" as well. And is pretty much the on the surface evaluation for anyone to see. What we as Knicks fans are interested in is the possibility that Toronto is nothing more then a gate keeper since they lack that top 5 superstar player. That Derozan leaves via FA and there lotto pick is nothing more then a role player. Then KP develops into that top 5 superstar type player In a few yrs which elevates the Knicks tons true contender.

Sure, when you list tons of "if"s, eventually you end up with a scenario that makes us better than them.

Its the possibility we need to root for as Knicks fans. Or maybe we should just hand them ECC vs Cavs for the next couple yrs since our odds are lower then them. We provably shouldn't even attempt to play basketball games since there future is so amazing.

NumberTwoPencil wrote:Yeah, I get it . . . Toronto is the Atlanta of the 90s (and the last half-dozen years). Good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to make the finals but . . . while it ain't gonna happen, if Toronto evens this series against Cleveland, they have a chance to win. Can they beat OKC? GS? Probably not but . . . I think JvG still had hair when the Knicks last had a solid chance to be in the finals. I'd settle for finals. I'd settle for a vague smell of finals. Toronto vs. OKC in the finals? Ibaka and Westbrook get banged up . . . Toronto wins this year. Probably not but still possible.

I, for one, wouldn't complain if someone swapped the whole Knicks team, coaches, owners, Phil, and all, for the whole Toronto team :) Giving up KP to get rid of Dolan? Deal :)

I make that switch in a heartbeat (though I would hope that NardDog can come up with a wild scenario / fleece for us to get back our unicorn )

djsunyc wrote:martin - the raptors have a payroll of $71 mil. that's 24th. that means there are 23 other teams with higher payrolls in the league. it's a pretty crazy accomplishment to be in the final 4 with such a low payroll. almost never happens. next lowest is gsw and they have $22 mil more.

our big contract will be derozan and while alot of folks don't like his game (myself included) - he is a huge reason we win games in the regular season so his value is that of a max player. ujiri is always about asset retention - and signing dd to the max will fall into that category. and if we chose to move on from lowry after next season, then moving dd will actually be quite easy with an even bigger cap next year. i also think that he would fit into a better systemic offense that casey doesn't instill. (side note - after we dealt rudy and lowry was almost a knick, we also had a dd for beldsoe deal lined up as well).

we have 4 first round picks the next 2 drafts - knicks and our own this draft, clippers and our own next draft.

you make the best with what you've got. we have improved every year as a team the past 5 seasons. and now we've finally made it to the ecf's. we just aren't anywhere near as good as cleveland - they are on another level. and yes, missing jonas is a huge factor b/c he's the one guy that can get easy baskets. cleveland would have no answer for him and he was dominating (star like) in the playoffs until his injury. he was a game changer and we may have been able to get 2 games if he was healthy. but w/o him, and on the heels of 2 seven games series, there was no shot. especially not with the way lebron + kryie + love are all clicking.

the east is good, it's just not top heavy. but to say toronto sucks is just something fans of crappy teams say. but it's eny - he still has a qyntel woods picture on his wall.

we are the best of the 2nd tier teams in the league - nothing wrong with that. final 4. i would say cle + gsw + sas are all better and we are on par with okc(actually slightly better). pop told casey during the season that he expected us to go far and we did. last time the knicks were in the final 4 was in 1999 (a strike shortened season). that's 16 years. and it could be 16 more - there are no guarantees in sports. that's why you take the good when they give it to you.

we are probably going to ride out this current toronto core for another year at least and then see what happens after that.

can we get that much better? well much better means we are championship level so the realistic answer is no and this is as good as this core is going to get. if love + kyrie was out this year instead of last and if jonas was healthy - we are going to the finals. so sometimes luck plays into it - luck and timing. with that said, we could still add a piece to the mix like batum or horford. the good thing about winning is that players values go up which makes deals easier to make and the team more attractive. pivoting from our situation will be quite easy and we have one of the best gm's. 64 wins on the season so far - i'll take it.

the one thing toronto has to deal with that no other team does is that it's in a foreign country. only b/c of the latest success of the franchise have folks actually thinking it's ok to play in toronto. if the team was still losing, it would still be considered siberia.

few other things to address from this thread:

chandler - even tho we kept improving the past 5 years - my biggest gripe with casey is our offensive system. he relies too much on lowry + dd to carry the load. we did see an adjustment and saw us using jonas alot more in the playoffs but overall, it's still an iso-heavy guard team. maybe changing the offense will help but you still need the guards to hit shots and lowry + dd's shot really struggled for most of the playoffs.

swish - carroll was hurt alot of the year. but when he played, he made an impact. we just don't maximize his offensive output based on our iso heavy style of play. but he has provided everything we needed when we signed him in the offseason. he just is no match for lebron - but he allowed us to single cover george + wade which is huge considering alot of folks would have to help/switch or double. if he didn't get hurt, we may have 60 wins this year and then the #1 seed - then maybe we split the first two games at home and outlook is a little different.

wh4t - the knicks are not 1 or 2 pieces away to get to #2. the knicks are 1-2 starters and 3-4 bench players away. need to get a quality guard with breakdown and takeover potential and the team needs alot of depth.

knicks1248 - we are a very good 3 point shooting team - but the two 7 game series have tired us out. we are missing wide open looks - tired legs. but without the jonas release valve - our offense is even easier to guard with free safety lebron.

Who the F is "we"?

fishmike wrote:Toronto is in great shape. They have good players, a good cap and extra picks. With decent management they should be a 2nd round playoff team for man years. The problem is they remind me a bit of the Hawks of the 90s. Steve Smith, Mookie, Willis, they had lot of good teams, always made the playoffs, often advanced, and everyone knew they were did not have the ponies to contend. Toronto is facing similar. The problem is their best players are a notch below the elite guys and its tough to grind out 7 game series against teams that have the 2 best players on the floor.

I think the Knick optimism is just that with KP you have the unicorn player (potentially) and building around that is always easier than building around 3-4 really good players.

if there ever was a jinx post for toronto - this is it. i hope your herpes sores flare up again.

as for building around a star being easier - don't agree. knicks melo era is proof positive.

Panos wrote:Who the F is "we"?