offensively, bottom half (for now)

If you consider his rosters he's done a hell of a job. Better fit for current Knicks than Pacers and especially the direction Bird wants to take

Calling him merely top 10 on D is lame but I'll consider the source. His team has typically been top 5 on D and their best rim protector was Hibbard! Give the man his due

he's top 10 IMO

callmened wrote:yeah i think hes a top 10 coach
- who has proved he can make something from nothing
- he can improve players (like hibbert and lanceand PG13)
- top defensive rankings each yr

I'll add to this. WHat you say is consistent with a transformative coach (see Lance and Hibbert as exhibit A). But he's also someone you can build long term on. He doesn't fight with mgmt or his players. There are a lot of coaches who have had success in this league who can't maintain it because they wear out their players and their welcome: Larry Brown, G. Karl, Thibs, D. Nelson, probably JVG to some degree

To me the only question with this guy is whether Phil will see him as "simpatico"

yellowboy90 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I'd say he is top 15 maybe.

honestly, who do you put in front of him and why to be so low? If you go up and down the teams I think he's clearly way higher than 15 and even 10. The only person I considered putting in front of him on my list, who I didn't was Brad S in Boston.

in no order: Pop, Svg, Thibs, Spoe, Stotts, Carlisle, Budenhozer, Stevens, Doc, and Kerr are 10 coaches you can argue is better or as good and maybe you can argue a few more should be included making Vogel in the top 15. Can you argue he is a top 10 coach sure but 15 was just for safety reasons.

gotcha...i like that list

nixluva wrote:For the Knicks purposes it almost doesn't matter what rank you give Vogel. He's an upgrade!

agreed! just curious to what poeple thought of vogel

yellowboy90 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I'd say he is top 15 maybe.

honestly, who do you put in front of him and why to be so low? If you go up and down the teams I think he's clearly way higher than 15 and even 10. The only person I considered putting in front of him on my list, who I didn't was Brad S in Boston.

in no order: Pop, Svg, Thibs, Spoe, Stotts, Carlisle, Budenhozer, Stevens, Doc, and Kerr are 10 coaches you can argue is better or as good and maybe you can argue a few more should be included making Vogel in the top 15. Can you argue he is a top 10 coach sure but 15 was just for safety reasons.

got it. Thanks

I seem to be the only fool, i guess, who had him top 5. I don't like Thibs for previous mentioned reasons. I think Svg and Budenhozer are good but inferior IMO. Svg and Budenhozer have not had the deep playoff runs to place them higher, in my book -- and Budenhozer has had some talented rosters in particular. Doc I think is a Casey Jones type of coach. He wasn't good with the celts when their talent was mediocre. Didn't really develop those guys (like let's say Fitch did), but when he was given talent he managed to get some big egos all on the same page. I think he's good and could be top 5 but he needs the right squad.

And one could make the case for Spoe. I have always thought of him as a whiny crybaby who never blinks (which is weird) and i will admit that had definitely clouded my judgment/rankings.

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I'd say he is top 15 maybe.

honestly, who do you put in front of him and why to be so low? If you go up and down the teams I think he's clearly way higher than 15 and even 10. The only person I considered putting in front of him on my list, who I didn't was Brad S in Boston.

in no order: Pop, Svg, Thibs, Spoe, Stotts, Carlisle, Budenhozer, Stevens, Doc, and Kerr are 10 coaches you can argue is better or as good and maybe you can argue a few more should be included making Vogel in the top 15. Can you argue he is a top 10 coach sure but 15 was just for safety reasons.

got it. Thanks

I seem to be the only fool, i guess, who had him top 5. I don't like Thibs for previous mentioned reasons. I think Svg and Budenhozer are good but inferior IMO. Svg and Budenhozer have not had the deep playoff runs to place them higher, in my book -- and Budenhozer has had some talented rosters in particular. Doc I think is a Casey Jones type of coach. He wasn't good with the celts when their talent was mediocre. Didn't really develop those guys (like let's say Fitch did), but when he was given talent he managed to get some big egos all on the same page. I think he's good and could be top 5 but he needs the right squad.

And one could make the case for Spoe. I have always thought of him as a whiny crybaby who never blinks (which is weird) and i will admit that had definitely clouded my judgment/rankings.

Did you forget about SVG and his Orlando teams or even when he was coaching Miami he got to the Eastern conference finals. I think he got the ECFs 3 times with Orlando including one trio to the Finals. I think SVG is who Vogel needs to embody. A defensive minded coach who sees the importance of small ball.

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I'd say he is top 15 maybe.

honestly, who do you put in front of him and why to be so low? If you go up and down the teams I think he's clearly way higher than 15 and even 10. The only person I considered putting in front of him on my list, who I didn't was Brad S in Boston.

in no order: Pop, Svg, Thibs, Spoe, Stotts, Carlisle, Budenhozer, Stevens, Doc, and Kerr are 10 coaches you can argue is better or as good and maybe you can argue a few more should be included making Vogel in the top 15. Can you argue he is a top 10 coach sure but 15 was just for safety reasons.

got it. Thanks

I seem to be the only fool, i guess, who had him top 5. I don't like Thibs for previous mentioned reasons. I think Svg and Budenhozer are good but inferior IMO. Svg and Budenhozer have not had the deep playoff runs to place them higher, in my book -- and Budenhozer has had some talented rosters in particular. Doc I think is a Casey Jones type of coach. He wasn't good with the celts when their talent was mediocre. Didn't really develop those guys (like let's say Fitch did), but when he was given talent he managed to get some big egos all on the same page. I think he's good and could be top 5 but he needs the right squad.

And one could make the case for Spoe. I have always thought of him as a whiny crybaby who never blinks (which is weird) and i will admit that had definitely clouded my judgment/rankings.

Did you forget about SVG and his Orlando teams or even when he was coaching Miami he got to the Eastern conference finals. I think he got the ECFs 3 times with Orlando including one trio to the Finals. I think SVG is who Vogel needs to embody. A defensive minded coach who sees the importance of small ball.

Guilty. Forgot about that

Though I like that he does not like small ball. Agreed it's working for GS and some others but I think the way to beat that is with length.

How would you ever beat GS? You either need to get better players at that game or you need to wait for them to break up or get old. Copying them is doomed

IMO you can only copy GS but so far. That roster has some special talent. The principles work if you build a team full of skilled players and have a special guy like Draymond to glue it all together.

The way Phil is building this team is a bit more doable. You can't duplicate Jordan or Kobe but you don't have to go to that level to find athletic combo guards that can do some of the things MJ and Kobe did but on a lower level. Breakdown ability, getting to the rim, passing and decent enough shooting. Just enough of those skills to make things work as they should.

Vogel can work with this roster. He's comfortable with this kind of team.