franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm glad that after 26 months, Phil has gotten respectable players for 3 of the 15 roster spots.

Maybe if you said "after 735 days,..." it would even sound more credible.

what a shame that by the time the KP hits his prime, Rolo & Melo will likely be out of the league or so old as to be ineffective.

nixluva wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:You can give all these stats into today's
2016 nba era all you want and analyze positives.

Fact
There' not ANY triangle or ex.LA Phil Jackson
Disciple, nor stud nba star will ever come to
Knicks in near future to be part of this Phil Jackson
Homemade mess.

Mess = how NOT to run a pro ballclub without any
Flexibility in coaches, players talents, or skillsets
OR ideas proven on which you build clubs up on.

No smart coach nor star NBA, role players will
Ever ever come to a Knicks led team to underutilize
Person skills.

Since this great post say clearly need only 8-9
Good players.

Then 8,9 players cited = Never.

Getting excited over Phil Jackson's steps
In process has yet to happen! = wont.

Right cuz the Triangle sure held back Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Pau and Bynum!!! Do you guys even think about what you write before pressing send???

Phil literally has built the MAJORITY of this team over the last season and a half!!!

KP, Jerian, RoLo, DWill, KOQ, AA, Seraphin, Sasha came last summer and Gallo, LT and Amundson came midway the season before. Only Melo Played 112 games the last 2 years and Jose has played 114 games the last 2 seasons under Phil. Cleanthony Early has only played a total of 56 games over the last 2 years. So we're not talking about a lot of games played so far. There is a lot of upside on the roster yet to be developed. In addition to adding his draft picks Willy and probably Thanasis to the roster next year.

Then we have Free Agency to look for more talent. It doesn't have to only be big names. There are young up and coming players Phil can also target this summer.

whoa whoa ..friend
No need to get rude ..ever

<<<Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Pau and Bynum!!! Do you guys even think about what you write before pressing >>> your text

I Believe MJ, Kobe, Shaq ..Pippen all either HOF or near HOF as Kobe will be near future

We/Knicks do not have yet those players

As far as FA, & this summer I stated simply who is coming ? Whom ?
fans ask them simple questions since Woodson was out as coach .. nearing 3-4 yrs

Process of Jackson era tenure, fans understand patience.. & talent needed
But no need to berate me for asking FA who? same ques, same issues even before #7 got here & afterwards

also furthermore its sole opinion That GM Prez Jackson do not need to toot his own horn 9 rings NBA titles yes great as coach

But when question on job' doing building club, then outcome is not good.
Its ok No need for phil tooting his horn for no results ..as yet

But aside from KP pick Phil has not done a thing ! squat. If were not for KP draft then fear where Knicks future will be shorterm
Solely an opinion mines, just shared not to be agreed Or disagreed .. We can discuss & have fair disagreements is what the
UltimateKnicks is about.

If poor job is issue fine,
Phil need to run team and keep quiet on twitter OR comebacks vs fans...
Never ever ever works in NY, especially when Our Knicks is a bad ballclub.

Further to cite Kobe, MJ, Shaq, Pippen in same texts as <<RoLo, DWill, KOQ, AA, Seraphin, Sasha ,Gallo, LT and Amundson, Melo and Jose >> and talk about injuries ..that is tale for another day. There isn't one of above players mention been on winning or champ
teams yet.

Its beyond me what these players cited Or potential FAs ? have to do with improving NY Knicks in the first place.

DJMUSIC wrote:

nixluva wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:You can give all these stats into today's
2016 nba era all you want and analyze positives.

Fact
There' not ANY triangle or ex.LA Phil Jackson
Disciple, nor stud nba star will ever come to
Knicks in near future to be part of this Phil Jackson
Homemade mess.

Mess = how NOT to run a pro ballclub without any
Flexibility in coaches, players talents, or skillsets
OR ideas proven on which you build clubs up on.

No smart coach nor star NBA, role players will
Ever ever come to a Knicks led team to underutilize
Person skills.

Since this great post say clearly need only 8-9
Good players.

Then 8,9 players cited = Never.

Getting excited over Phil Jackson's steps
In process has yet to happen! = wont.

Right cuz the Triangle sure held back Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Pau and Bynum!!! Do you guys even think about what you write before pressing send???

Phil literally has built the MAJORITY of this team over the last season and a half!!!

KP, Jerian, RoLo, DWill, KOQ, AA, Seraphin, Sasha came last summer and Gallo, LT and Amundson came midway the season before. Only Melo Played 112 games the last 2 years and Jose has played 114 games the last 2 seasons under Phil. Cleanthony Early has only played a total of 56 games over the last 2 years. So we're not talking about a lot of games played so far. There is a lot of upside on the roster yet to be developed. In addition to adding his draft picks Willy and probably Thanasis to the roster next year.

Then we have Free Agency to look for more talent. It doesn't have to only be big names. There are young up and coming players Phil can also target this summer.

whoa whoa ..friend
No need to get rude ..ever

<<<Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Pau and Bynum!!! Do you guys even think about what you write before pressing >>> your text

I Believe MJ, Kobe, Shaq ..Pippen all either HOF or near HOF as Kobe will be near future

We/Knicks do not have yet those players

As far as FA, & this summer I stated simply who is coming ? Whom ?
fans ask them simple questions since Woodson was out as coach .. nearing 3-4 yrs

Process of Jackson era tenure, fans understand patience.. & talent needed
But no need to berate me for asking FA who? same ques, same issues even before #7 got here & afterwards

also furthermore its sole opinion That GM Prez Jackson do not need to toot his own horn 9 rings NBA titles yes great as coach

But when question on job' doing building club, then outcome is not good.
Its ok No need for phil tooting his horn for no results ..as yet

But aside from KP pick Phil has not done a thing ! squat. If were not for KP draft then fear where Knicks future will be shorterm
Solely an opinion mines, just shared not to be agreed Or disagreed .. We can discuss & have fair disagreements is what the
UltimateKnicks is about.

If poor job is issue fine,
Phil need to run team and keep quiet on twitter OR comebacks vs fans...
Never ever ever works in NY, especially when Our Knicks is a bad ballclub.

Further to cite Kobe, MJ, Shaq, Pippen in same texts as <<RoLo, DWill, KOQ, AA, Seraphin, Sasha ,Gallo, LT and Amundson, Melo and Jose >> and talk about injuries ..that is tale for another day. There isn't one of above players mention been on winning or champ
teams yet.

Its beyond me what these players cited Or potential FAs ? have to do with improving NY Knicks in the first place.

My point was that the Triangle didn't hold any of those players back from winning Titles, did it? To make comments about the system and assume Free Agents won't come because of the Triangle is not right. Phil will have options this summer and not only the top FA's but also young up and coming FA's.

The reason I listed the Players Phil has brought in is to emphasize how short a period of time we're talking about to be making such harsh judgments about Phil. A huge chunk of the team has only been here for one to 1.5 seasons. That's not a long time under any measurement. How people are unable to grasp that very simple concept is beyond me.

Phil is still very much at the beginning of this process of building the team. By January of 2015 Phil flushed the old roster and direction for the team and began a new direction that we've been on for a season and a half. THAT'S IT! Just 1.5 seasons so far of his rebuild after trading away Shump and JR. That means we haven't really had a lot of time for his picks to develop either. So a lot of the negative judgment is highly premature at this point.

It would be like judging the Warriors a season and a half after drafting Curry. No one was thinking NBA Champions at that point I would bet. It's going to be very interesting to see how this team develops and what Phil does this summer.

y2zipper wrote:Here's the truth: this is going to take longer than fans want to see. Phil's access to great prospects is limited by only having one first round pick in 3 drafts since he's been here. (and it's not like Phil traded them, so I don't see how he can be blamed for this) He also won't get free agents because great free agents typically don't move. Free agents that you want (like Durant) are only going to move for a better chance to win, and we haven't seen a team-changning star besides LeBron, who did it twice, suddenly change teams. Unless you're expecting a Billy King to come in and overvalue the assets or the historic landing of a superstar, I don't really know how Phil could have done better up to now.

I'll be fair. Fisher didn't work (which was Phil's move) and maybe he shouldn't have taken on Calderon for Chandler (again, Phil's move), but Phil has made the substaniative decisions right: there's future cap flexibility, he hasn't thrown away future picks for mediocre short-term assets, and he hasn't overpaid second-tier free agents. The reason that Phil is a good hire is because he can do these things without Dolan getting in the way (or at least he's proven that he's been able to do that so far). On this team, these decisions toward the long-term rebuild that the Knicks need are more important than anything else and Phil is probably the only guy who can do that with a Dolan-owned team and get away with it.

Chances are that in order for the Knicks to succeed, Phil needs to hire Rambis, tank, get the knicks 2-3 more lottery picks, use stop-gaps to fill the roster and make the situation more attractive. It's probably more attractive with a better Porzingis, another lottery pick or 2, and an improved Anthony.

The issue with the long-term rebuild is that nobody thinks Phil will be here for the long-term, and that isn't completely unfair with his opt-out after next year and L.A. looming.

so you have mild blame for phil but you seem to agree that it is a bleak situation. I guess I can deal with most of that take.

Phil is not tanking though if we sign rambis and things are going bad then a change to tank mode (again) would be a must.

jrodmc wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm glad that after 26 months, Phil has gotten respectable players for 3 of the 15 roster spots.

Maybe if you said "after 735 days,..." it would even sound more credible.

what a shame that by the time the KP hits his prime, Rolo & Melo will likely be out of the league or so old as to be ineffective.

Right, because after a historic rookie season, it may take 5-10 years before this project pick pans out.

athletes tend to peak around 25-29. Which for KP is 5/6 years away. And Melo will be very old - Kobe old with all his miles. Maybe I'm wrong, but in 5 years, I'm expecting Melo to be giving me Amar'e Staudemire like production/minutes.

IMO, unicorns tend to peak earlier. I don't think we're waiting 5-6 years for KP to peak. He's not going to have the normal rookie luxury of playing sparse minutes as he progresses. His future is here and now. Phil gets us any kind of real quality backcourt this summer, and you're going to see the peak pretty quickly. This kid is a unique talent on both ends of the floor, and his passing is only going to get better with better quality to pass to.

Just no more KP injuries, please.

Phil has talked about KP in relation to Bynum. He said he was not in favor of a young big at first cuz he didn't think he could win while that player was learning and developing but they did win and that opened his eyes and changed his thinking on it.

Knicks just need to improve at the guard spots and this team will win.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm glad that after 26 months, Phil has gotten respectable players for 3 of the 15 roster spots.

Maybe if you said "after 735 days,..." it would even sound more credible.

what a shame that by the time the KP hits his prime, Rolo & Melo will likely be out of the league or so old as to be ineffective.

Right, because after a historic rookie season, it may take 5-10 years before this project pick pans out.

athletes tend to peak around 25-29. Which for KP is 5/6 years away. And Melo will be very old - Kobe old with all his miles. Maybe I'm wrong, but in 5 years, I'm expecting Melo to be giving me Amar'e Staudemire like production/minutes.

IMO, unicorns tend to peak earlier. I don't think we're waiting 5-6 years for KP to peak. He's not going to have the normal rookie luxury of playing sparse minutes as he progresses. His future is here and now. Phil gets us any kind of real quality backcourt this summer, and you're going to see the peak pretty quickly. This kid is a unique talent on both ends of the floor, and his passing is only going to get better with better quality to pass to.

Just no more KP injuries, please.

Phil has talked about KP in relation to Bynum. He said he was not in favor of a young big at first cuz he didn't think he could win while that player was learning and developing but they did win and that opened his eyes and changed his thinking on it.

Knicks just need to improve at the guard spots and this team will win.

There's no such thing as a .390 team with just one simple need. We also need KP to grow substantially, Melo to age well and improve his scoring efficiency, some degree of roster and coaching stability, Phil to make better use of cap space, and more.

Bonn1997 wrote:For example, if we replaced our 4 highest minute backcourt players with guards with average win shares (a stat I know you've relied on), it suggests the team would have 4 more wins. (I'm estimating the amount of increase in season total win shares each player would have if his WS 48 rate were changed to .100.) If you argue the stats are underestimating the overall impact of the backcourt upgrade and you want to even double that total (8 more wins), I could go along with that, but that still only gets us to around .500. The main reason is that our frontcourt was reasonably good but not outstanding.

Bonn, can you share with us how you upgraded the 4 backcourt players and only came up with 4 wins? I don't get the WS correlation.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:For example, if we replaced our 4 highest minute backcourt players with guards with average win shares (a stat I know you've relied on), it suggests the team would have 4 more wins. (I'm estimating the amount of increase in season total win shares each player would have if his WS 48 rate were changed to .100.) If you argue the stats are underestimating the overall impact of the backcourt upgrade and you want to even double that total (8 more wins), I could go along with that, but that still only gets us to around .500. The main reason is that our frontcourt was reasonably good but not outstanding.

Bonn, can you share with us how you upgraded the 4 backcourt players and only came up with 4 wins? I don't get the WS correlation.

I think he already did explain...

(4 x average WS for guard) - (Knicks WS last season for top 4 guards) = net increase of four wins

so 4 * .100 - (.055 + .076 + .096 + .060; AA, Gallo, Jose, Sasha) = 0.4 - 0.287 = .113? And then what? And then you multiply by 48?

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:For example, if we replaced our 4 highest minute backcourt players with guards with average win shares (a stat I know you've relied on), it suggests the team would have 4 more wins. (I'm estimating the amount of increase in season total win shares each player would have if his WS 48 rate were changed to .100.) If you argue the stats are underestimating the overall impact of the backcourt upgrade and you want to even double that total (8 more wins), I could go along with that, but that still only gets us to around .500. The main reason is that our frontcourt was reasonably good but not outstanding.

Bonn, can you share with us how you upgraded the 4 backcourt players and only came up with 4 wins? I don't get the WS correlation.