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what should have Phil done and what should he do now?
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EnySpree
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4/29/2016  9:10 PM
I'm tired of the complaining. So from day one in March 2014, what should he have done? Take us though up until now.... what should have happened?
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Malcolm
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4/29/2016  9:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/29/2016  9:41 PM
Then (alternative universe):

(1) Hire Rambis from day one rather than trying to avoid criticism
by hiring Fisher.

(2) Everything else follows from that . . .

Now:

(1) Confirm Rambis as head coach and fire all Fisher assistants.

(2) Be more hands on with teaching and practice.

(3) Bring in more European players. (Maybe even get Dolan to buy
a European franchise to use as a farm team . . .)

(4) Trade the 2017 first round pick (only a 15-20 overall player)
for backcourt help (Teague, etc).

(5) Sign Pau Gasol to add Triangle experience and stability for
next 2 years.

(6) Double down on commitment to Triangle culture.

StarksEwing1
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4/29/2016  9:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/29/2016  9:50 PM
EnySpree wrote:I'm tired of the complaining. So from day one in March 2014, what should he have done? Take us though up until now.... what should have happened?
youre a very positive fan which is good but you cant make people have no crticisms, no complaints, and great faith after winning only 49 games in 2 years. I think fans need to see phil and the knicks succeed first and then we will be ecstatic
CrushAlot
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4/29/2016  10:27 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I'm tired of the complaining. So from day one in March 2014, what should he have done? Take us though up until now.... what should have happened?
youre a very positive fan which is good but you cant make people have no crticisms, no complaints, and great faith after winning only 49 games in 2 years. I think fans need to see phil and the knicks succeed first and then we will be ecstatic
What do you think he should have done to make them more successful up to this point?
I'll take a shot. I think he had to adjust a bit to the position initially. He paid a lot of money to get Labeyrie. None of his picks from that first draft have hit yet but they all are still in the fold and might. Jerami Grant or Jordan Clarkson look like much better picks than Early. I also think he misjudged Fisher. Maybe you hire Fish for the front office or something but you could hire Rambis, Walton, Cleamons etc. for that 17 win season and reset if needed. I have no problem with the Tyson/Felton trade at all. I think Tyson needed to be moved to change the culture. The Knicks were getting malcontent in the locker room/Phoenix Tyson with a new contract on the court. I think giving Wayne Ellington a shot might have been smart. I think Phil should have resigned Shved over Seraphin. I think if there was an opportunity to get N'Dour cheap before Dallas went all in Phil should have done it. I think the KNicks should have used their open roster spot to try out more young guys from the d l. I think Wroten might have been available in the offseason if the Knicks waited but if you value Wroten (I do), then that might have been too much of a risk.
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Vmart
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4/30/2016  10:17 AM
Phil is doing a good job. But his biggest mistake is Melo the idea behind resigning Melo was his value in the market to turn him in to assets. If Phil can't do that then it was a failure of a signing.
CrushAlot
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4/30/2016  10:40 AM
Vmart wrote:Phil is doing a good job. But his biggest mistake is Melo the idea behind resigning Melo was his value in the market to turn him in to assets. If Phil can't do that then it was a failure of a signing.
Why would he negotiate a ntc if he was going to use him to turn him into assets?
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yellowboy90
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4/30/2016  11:35 AM
I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

CrushAlot
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4/30/2016  12:12 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

Good points. I think my dislike of Tyson makes me view that deal with a bias.
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yellowboy90
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4/30/2016  12:19 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

Good points. I think my dislike of Tyson makes me view that deal with a bias.

Now, like I said before that trade can kind f be forgiven because it was his first one as an executive but I don't like seeing him repeat similar mistakes with Shump/JR and hearing rumors this year he was trying to package Calderon with O'Quinn. I just want to see growth as an executive.

martin
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4/30/2016  12:22 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

I think the point of moving Tyson so quick was because he had become a locker room cancer.

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yellowboy90
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4/30/2016  12:26 PM
martin wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

I think the point of moving Tyson so quick was because he had become a locker room cancer.


Yes, I get that but you can not let that dictate your ability to get the most of your asset. Like I said look at Rondo and Morris.
Vmart
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4/30/2016  12:40 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:Phil is doing a good job. But his biggest mistake is Melo the idea behind resigning Melo was his value in the market to turn him in to assets. If Phil can't do that then it was a failure of a signing.
Why would he negotiate a ntc if he was going to use him to turn him into assets?

He didn't want to give the NTC Melo basically had him by the nuts. Lose him for nothing and lose the assets that he might bring. Or hope everything works out and the Knicks win games. But the other aspect is will the Knicks be bad enough that Melo gets fed up and waves the NTC so he can trade him. I don't think Phil realized how willing Melo is to go the losing route.

I really don't think he wanted to give him that NTC.

martin
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4/30/2016  12:58 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
martin wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

I think the point of moving Tyson so quick was because he had become a locker room cancer.


Yes, I get that but you can not let that dictate your ability to get the most of your asset. Like I said look at Rondo and Morris.

Yeah, that's fair but not the only thing to look at. Phil wanted to immediately implement his system. Can you do that with Tyson and Felton and the rest? There is no doubt in my mind that getting Felton out of the locker room and out of the media was a top priority. Also, for better or worse, Phil wanted to bring in Jose to be an influence on the team; on the court and off, he is well known as being one of the smarter guys around.

Felton could have been let go or traded? Maybe, but not straight up traded.

Tyson would have needed to be kept until the trade deadline to see what type of market there was for him.

Was Larkin work the look? They got a steady hand in Jose, first round pick in Larkin (drafted at #18), 2 second round picks (34 was pretty high). Jose got hurt, Larkin busted and the second round picks have been flat.

Boston gets the #16 pick this year in the Rondo deal, got Crowder and gave up Powell. Those are the meat part of that deal.

PHO got the #13 from WAS this year for Morris. Nice pick.

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crzymdups
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4/30/2016  1:00 PM
I think there are two paths forward from here:

Path 1 - Hire Blatt, flesh out the backcourt with some FA guards (who will be more likely to come with Blatt than Rambis), try to win with Rolo, Melo, FA guards, and develop KP, Grant, Wroten


Path 2 - Work with Melo to facilitate a trade to the Clippers or maybe another team. Focus on getting picks and young players back. With Melo gone, our 2017 pick would likely be top 3. Get a bunch of young talent and teach them the Triangle and hope it all comes together, despite the fact that a young team has never learned the Triangle before and it's only worked with veteran teams and Rambis is a terrible coach.


Those wishing for a full rebuild - take a look at how Portland's rebuild is going. They tore it all down and started from ground zero - seems like they're pretty far ahead of the Knicks. But they have an all-star PG, which Phil says you don't need to win in the NBA.

I just think there are several major conceptual flaws to Phil ever succeeding here:

1) insistence on the Triangle, which has cost us Thibs and any other number of quality coaches and left us with Rambis. And is costing us FA opportunities

2) denial of the Point Guard as the most important position in the league with the new rules.

3) denial of the Three Point Shot as one of the most important value shots in the game.

Look at the teams in the second round and their PG: Dame Lillard, Steph Curry, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Kyrie Irving, Goran Dragic (assuming Miami and Toronto win Game 7 on their home floor) - that is a MURDERER'S ROW of Point Guards, outside of maybe Dragic.

IMHO, we won't win **** with Phil operating on these three guiding principals.

And they're all connected. He wants to prove you can win without a PG, without 3s, with the Triangle. Because that's how he did it with Jordan and Kobe. Except we don't have Jordan and Kobe.

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martin
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4/30/2016  1:03 PM
crzymdups wrote:I think there are two paths forward from here:

Path 1 - Hire Blatt, flesh out the backcourt with some FA guards (who will be more likely to come with Blatt than Rambis), try to win with Rolo, Melo, FA guards, and develop KP, Grant, Wroten


Path 2 - Work with Melo to facilitate a trade to the Clippers or maybe another team. Focus on getting picks and young players back. With Melo gone, our 2017 pick would likely be top 3. Get a bunch of young talent and teach them the Triangle and hope it all comes together, despite the fact that a young team has never learned the Triangle before and it's only worked with veteran teams and Rambis is a terrible coach.


Those wishing for a full rebuild - take a look at how Portland's rebuild is going. They tore it all down and started from ground zero - seems like they're pretty far ahead of the Knicks. But they have an all-star PG, which Phil says you don't need to win in the NBA.

I just think there are several major conceptual flaws to Phil ever succeeding here:

1) insistence on the Triangle, which has cost us Thibs and any other number of quality coaches and left us with Rambis. And is costing us FA opportunities

2) denial of the Point Guard as the most important position in the league with the new rules.

3) denial of the Three Point Shot as one of the most important value shots in the game.

Look at the teams in the second round and their PG: Dame Lillard, Steph Curry, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Kyrie Irving, Goran Dragic (assuming Miami and Toronto win Game 7 on their home floor) - that is a MURDERER'S ROW of Point Guards, outside of maybe Dragic.

IMHO, we won't win **** with Phil operating on these three guiding principals.

And they're all connected. He wants to prove you can win without a PG, without 3s, with the Triangle. Because that's how he did it with Jordan and Kobe. Except we don't have Jordan and Kobe.

come on man, I love your stuff but you dilute your own opinion by injecting Isola-like fodder

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crzymdups
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4/30/2016  1:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/30/2016  1:08 PM
martin wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think there are two paths forward from here:

Path 1 - Hire Blatt, flesh out the backcourt with some FA guards (who will be more likely to come with Blatt than Rambis), try to win with Rolo, Melo, FA guards, and develop KP, Grant, Wroten


Path 2 - Work with Melo to facilitate a trade to the Clippers or maybe another team. Focus on getting picks and young players back. With Melo gone, our 2017 pick would likely be top 3. Get a bunch of young talent and teach them the Triangle and hope it all comes together, despite the fact that a young team has never learned the Triangle before and it's only worked with veteran teams and Rambis is a terrible coach.


Those wishing for a full rebuild - take a look at how Portland's rebuild is going. They tore it all down and started from ground zero - seems like they're pretty far ahead of the Knicks. But they have an all-star PG, which Phil says you don't need to win in the NBA.

I just think there are several major conceptual flaws to Phil ever succeeding here:

1) insistence on the Triangle, which has cost us Thibs and any other number of quality coaches and left us with Rambis. And is costing us FA opportunities

2) denial of the Point Guard as the most important position in the league with the new rules.

3) denial of the Three Point Shot as one of the most important value shots in the game.

Look at the teams in the second round and their PG: Dame Lillard, Steph Curry, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Kyrie Irving, Goran Dragic (assuming Miami and Toronto win Game 7 on their home floor) - that is a MURDERER'S ROW of Point Guards, outside of maybe Dragic.

IMHO, we won't win **** with Phil operating on these three guiding principals.

And they're all connected. He wants to prove you can win without a PG, without 3s, with the Triangle. Because that's how he did it with Jordan and Kobe. Except we don't have Jordan and Kobe.

come on man, I love your stuff but you dilute your own opinion by injecting Isola-like fodder

seriously, martin, he has said this. I'm not making this up. I think it is a fundamental denial of how the game of basketball has evolved.

LOS ANGELES -- New York Knicks president Phil Jackson said he won't be obsessed with finding a star point guard, in part because the triangle offense hasn't required one.

"Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center.

Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.

"We went to a two-guard format, and I think we were successful at it," he said. "I think we caught a lot of people in the league by surprise because of the way we played. So it works, and we know it works."

The Knicks will have at least $18 million to spend in free agency this summer. If Jackson's statements Friday hold true, it seems unlikely they will chase an elite free-agent point guard such as Mike Conley or Rajon Rondo. (It's worth noting that Rondo said last month that he's unlikely to consider the Knicks in free agency because of the triangle.)

Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.

"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.

Jackson also said interim coach Kurt Rambis is "perfectly capable" of coaching the team permanently. He noted that Rambis' record as head coach of the Minnesota Timberwolves (32-132) puts a "black mark on his coaching ability at first sight." But he added that Rambis, with whom he has a close relationship, has "a way of handling players. He's relaxed but he has the ability to keep them focused on the important parts of it."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14952648/phil-jackson-discusses-new-york-knicks-point-guard-situation-other-topics

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martin
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4/30/2016  1:12 PM
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I think there are two paths forward from here:

Path 1 - Hire Blatt, flesh out the backcourt with some FA guards (who will be more likely to come with Blatt than Rambis), try to win with Rolo, Melo, FA guards, and develop KP, Grant, Wroten


Path 2 - Work with Melo to facilitate a trade to the Clippers or maybe another team. Focus on getting picks and young players back. With Melo gone, our 2017 pick would likely be top 3. Get a bunch of young talent and teach them the Triangle and hope it all comes together, despite the fact that a young team has never learned the Triangle before and it's only worked with veteran teams and Rambis is a terrible coach.


Those wishing for a full rebuild - take a look at how Portland's rebuild is going. They tore it all down and started from ground zero - seems like they're pretty far ahead of the Knicks. But they have an all-star PG, which Phil says you don't need to win in the NBA.

I just think there are several major conceptual flaws to Phil ever succeeding here:

1) insistence on the Triangle, which has cost us Thibs and any other number of quality coaches and left us with Rambis. And is costing us FA opportunities

2) denial of the Point Guard as the most important position in the league with the new rules.

3) denial of the Three Point Shot as one of the most important value shots in the game.

Look at the teams in the second round and their PG: Dame Lillard, Steph Curry, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Kyrie Irving, Goran Dragic (assuming Miami and Toronto win Game 7 on their home floor) - that is a MURDERER'S ROW of Point Guards, outside of maybe Dragic.

IMHO, we won't win **** with Phil operating on these three guiding principals.

And they're all connected. He wants to prove you can win without a PG, without 3s, with the Triangle. Because that's how he did it with Jordan and Kobe. Except we don't have Jordan and Kobe.

come on man, I love your stuff but you dilute your own opinion by injecting Isola-like fodder

seriously, martin, he has said this. I'm not making this up. I think it is a fundamental denial of how the game of basketball has evolved.

LOS ANGELES -- New York Knicks president Phil Jackson said he won't be obsessed with finding a star point guard, in part because the triangle offense hasn't required one.

"Chasing a point guard, where it becomes just an obsession, isn't necessary. It's not necessary. We can play the game without that," Jackson said Friday at Staples Center.

Jackson pointed to the success that the Chicago Bulls and the Los Angeles Lakers had running the triangle; neither franchise relied on a ball-dominant point guard during his tenures as coach.

"We went to a two-guard format, and I think we were successful at it," he said. "I think we caught a lot of people in the league by surprise because of the way we played. So it works, and we know it works."

The Knicks will have at least $18 million to spend in free agency this summer. If Jackson's statements Friday hold true, it seems unlikely they will chase an elite free-agent point guard such as Mike Conley or Rajon Rondo. (It's worth noting that Rondo said last month that he's unlikely to consider the Knicks in free agency because of the triangle.)

Jackson noted that the Knicks will try to develop their guards from within. He mentioned Tony Wroten, whom they expect to sign in the coming days, as one player who could add depth at the position.

"Our process is going on [and] it's a little underground, a little beneath the surface, but this is one of our desires, that we have to have a penetrator and we have to have somebody that can handle those roles," he said.

Jackson also said interim coach Kurt Rambis is "perfectly capable" of coaching the team permanently. He noted that Rambis' record as head coach of the Minnesota Timberwolves (32-132) puts a "black mark on his coaching ability at first sight." But he added that Rambis, with whom he has a close relationship, has "a way of handling players. He's relaxed but he has the ability to keep them focused on the important parts of it."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14952648/phil-jackson-discusses-new-york-knicks-point-guard-situation-other-topics

What you quoted and what you said are 2 different things. The Triangle does not emphasis the PG position. Jackson has said he doesn't think it's necessary to chase an all-star PG to the point of obsession. Duh.

That doesn't mean you can't win with one or that Phil won't have one on his team.

Did you forget that just after he got KP he also drafted Grant? In college Grant was most well known for his PnR skills. I think Phil went after him cause of his purported BBallIQ and because he was big and a ball mover and could defend.

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yellowboy90
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4/30/2016  1:22 PM
martin wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
martin wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I disagree crush about the Tyson trade who always try to get the most out of your asset and not rush to make a deal. Tyson was still recognized as a good locker room guy and leader. Also, Cuban had made it known he wanted Tyson back. As a poster on KB pointed out look what Ainge got for Rondo, who was coming off injuries, was considered a cancer, and skills were diminishing, They got a major haul. Look what Phx got for Morris by waiting and not rushing despite the whole nba knowing they wanted him gone.

Also, who do trade one locker room cancer for Dalembert, when he has had issue after issue.

I think the point of moving Tyson so quick was because he had become a locker room cancer.


Yes, I get that but you can not let that dictate your ability to get the most of your asset. Like I said look at Rondo and Morris.

Yeah, that's fair but not the only thing to look at. Phil wanted to immediately implement his system. Can you do that with Tyson and Felton and the rest? There is no doubt in my mind that getting Felton out of the locker room and out of the media was a top priority. Also, for better or worse, Phil wanted to bring in Jose to be an influence on the team; on the court and off, he is well known as being one of the smarter guys around.

Felton could have been let go or traded? Maybe, but not straight up traded.

Tyson would have needed to be kept until the trade deadline to see what type of market there was for him.

Was Larkin work the look? They got a steady hand in Jose, first round pick in Larkin (drafted at #18), 2 second round picks (34 was pretty high). Jose got hurt, Larkin busted and the second round picks have been flat.

Boston gets the #16 pick this year in the Rondo deal, got Crowder and gave up Powell. Those are the meat part of that deal.

PHO got the #13 from WAS this year for Morris. Nice pick.

You don't always have to wait until the deadline but if they did who knows if Cleveland would have wanted Tyson(respected Vet) over Mozgov which could have created a bidding war.

Also, Felton could have been cut or stretched without Calderon on the hook they could have been serious players for Cory Joseph or whoever. Yes Joseph wanted to be in Toronto but would he have turned down a chance to start?

I believe Larkin option wasn't even picked up before the season started so that was a waste

Like I said the Tyson was a trade that can be forgiven but don't continue wasting assets by coupling them with dead weight.

EnySpree
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4/30/2016  4:19 PM
I can't complain about anything Phil has done. I see the Tyson trade is still a big deal with yall but could Tyson fit what we're trying to do? Absolutely not. Tyson leadership was a myth. He proved that here, he also proved that in his second Dallas stint and the Phoenix stint. He's a liability on offense that can't score outside of a clean lane on a pick and roll. That to me sums it up. Felton almost did 3 and a half years in jail on a gun charge.... why is this still something that's talked about?

Phil had to clean house. He got rid of Shump and JR for nothing because it was more important that they leave immediately than holding on to them. Both are cancerous players to a rebuilding team. Phil did just that. We don't get KP without losing all those games. Mission accomplished in my opinion.

Phil signs Robin Lopez and established a foundation for this off season. We have a blueprint to show guys where they can fit in. What more do you want?

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StarksEwing1
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4/30/2016  4:44 PM
EnySpree wrote:I can't complain about anything Phil has done. I see the Tyson trade is still a big deal with yall but could Tyson fit what we're trying to do? Absolutely not. Tyson leadership was a myth. He proved that here, he also proved that in his second Dallas stint and the Phoenix stint. He's a liability on offense that can't score outside of a clean lane on a pick and roll. That to me sums it up. Felton almost did 3 and a half years in jail on a gun charge.... why is this still something that's talked about?

Phil had to clean house. He got rid of Shump and JR for nothing because it was more important that they leave immediately than holding on to them. Both are cancerous players to a rebuilding team. Phil did just that. We don't get KP without losing all those games. Mission accomplished in my opinion.

Phil signs Robin Lopez and established a foundation for this off season. We have a blueprint to show guys where they can fit in. What more do you want?

fans arent complaining. Phil has made both good and bad moves. Nothing wrong with rooting for the knicks but being honest as well
what should have Phil done and what should he do now?

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